Weapon Styles, Basket Weaving, and Concept Obsolesence

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Voss wrote:I find it utterly absurd that you are using it as an example of something that a player would actually ask for in a real game.
What the fuck? You've never had a player wonder what it'd be like to be a king or mafia boss or owner of a mage's academy or a frickin' deity?
It is even more absurd than the idea that you'd throw a fit over a cultural weapon that has no real mechanical advantages when the two cultures clearly have contact.
During the time frame that Robin Hood takes place, it's totally fucking possible for there to be rockets and Chinese paper bills and shit. Because the time frame took place during the Crusades. However, just because these things could exist in Nottingham does not mean that they should exist just because a player wants them to exist.

Guy of Gisborne being able to generically deck himself out in full wicker armor and a musket without an extremely good explanation is insulting -- even though it's totally possible and in-character to run an adventure where he sees the light and goes on a madcap adventure through China with the Merry Men to track down King Richard and come across those things normally. We find him decking himself out in some pig-iron fullplate with a rusty axe much less taxing on our versimilitude, so if Guy's player says that he's going to commission a blacksmith to forge him those things over the next month we just say 'okay'. We may not even have him roll or pay in-character resources.
deaddmwalking wrote:Of course, this means that the 'starting katana' should be a viable option at all levels of play (since we know the player had the expectation that an upgrade/replacement would not be easily available). And clearly 3.5 doesn't work in that regard.
There's nothing wrong with the idea that it's okay for someone to start with a katana but doesn't have the ability to unilaterally force one into the game. Foreigner characters stuck in a strange land using equipment they brought along is a pretty common and pretty cool trope.

Unfortunately... well... read the rest of this thread or any other thread which involves people making agreements that they hopefully won't have to honor. They shriek like howler monkeys when it comes time to part with their possessions. Considering that people have unironically made the argument of 'I had a katana once, so I should be able to be a katana guy forever' it's best just not to start people down that road at all. You know how people are.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Voss wrote:Shit. I tagged on to this thread thinking it was about the D&D 5e flametongue article. Looking back, it's one of Lago's threads on how sword guy is the most ruinous things existent in any genre of game ever.

This can't go anywhere good, so I'm tapping out.
Good, I was getting tired of your misrepresentative bullshit.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by John Magnum »

You might not have been, but Saxony was.
Saxony wrote:Yes, this means Alladin gets his fucking Scimitar somehow, no questions asked. If the player wants to jump through hoops and obey verisimilitude, sure, go ahead. But if he wants a scimitar, he gets the scimitar.
I hope that Saxony has some vaguely-defined line in his head where certain player demands are unreasonable. I really hope I can't replace "a scimitar" with "the chance to fuck Fluttershy" and get a statement Saxony still agrees with. I'd be interested in probing where people think that border is.

===

I'm trying to think my way through a couple different cases. The case of the ax preferrer is quite different from the case of the katana fetishist.

Let's assume that this is a game that provides a high-volume torrent of loot. Maybe not Diablo/Borderlands/MMO levels, but a steady supply of new items. You are not expected to use all or even most of the items you get. For coolness' sake, we don't want you to melt them down into scrap and turn them into items off a wishlist, because that's lame and trophies are cool. But you get a moderately diverse flow of items. Lots of magic swords, magic axes, magic bows, magic lances, magic brass knuckles, and so forth.

Let's also assume that in this system, there is not an extremely rigid upgrade schedule to your weapons. This means absolutely no wishlist shit, because if the game assumes wishlisting then the game assumes that the MC is acting as Santa Claus and fuck that. But it also means that if you decide to stick with a +2 weapon while everyone around you is running around with +4s, you are a bit worse but you still contribute meaningfully to the team. You take hits, you deal damage, you solve problems. You can refuse to replace your weapon for a while and still be valuable. Some classes in 3.x already have this feature.

In this paradigm, a character who prefers axes is completely viable and doesn't require any toxic bullshit. Out of the diverse flow of new weapons, there will probably be moderately useful axes. Since there is no wishlist bullshit, ANY moderately useful axe is better than nothing (whereas in a wishlist system, any moderately useful axe except the one you want is worse than nothing) so he can take it. The player doesn't need to demand that his MC stuff an ax into the next adventure, since if he doesn't see anything he likes in the next pile of loot he just shrugs, operates at a suboptimal but still functional level for a while, and moves on. The MC doesn't have to transmute shit, or allow magic marts, or let PCs extract midichlorians from their weapons and inject them into other weapons. The MC sets up the world, the player decides how his character reacts to it, and if the player chooses to only use axes it's probably mostly viable.*

The katana fetishist, on the other hand, is someone who wants to use an exotic weapon. A katana, a scimitar, a laser gun, whatever. It's NOT part of the expected treasure distribution system. If the MC does not begin tweaking the world to suit his player's desire to look cool, the player becomes unhappy. And so now we get people who say things like "Just FORCE the katanas into the setting if the player wants them". This is toxic and obnoxious and a bad model for MCing. It brutally shatters WSOD by calling attention to the fact that the world the PCs are RPing in is not real, and has no sense of reality, but exists ONLY as a theme park ride explicitly to allow players to do what they want. And "what they want" is to be a fucking katana wielder.

*There are still some issues with this. Lago points out that if you allow people to give a shit about the difference between a sword and ax cosmetically, you start to give a shit about it mechanically. You start to write CLASSES that are swordmaster or axwielder, and that kind of distinction really does not play nicely. Two classes that are supposed to be entirely separate on the basis of what KIND of bladed weapon they use do not sit at the same table with a Wizard or a Druid or a Cleric. They can't even sit at the same table as a Fire Mage, Beguiler, or Barbarian. There is an extremely low level of power where allowing people to give a shit about the differences in weapons doesn't start to lead to this sort of issue. It really is bad when you try to cram a VAH and a 3.x Wizard into the same game.

===

There is an odd double-standard about how important weapon shape is. There seem to be people saying "Well, it doesn't really matter what category the weapon is, so the MC should just change it." But doesn't it cut both ways: "It doesn't really matter what category the weapon is, so the PC should just lump it." Why does the PC's desire to look cool trump the MC's desire to have a world that makes sense? At some point, even if weapon category is irrelevant, this is storytelling and concreteness and details will come up so SOMEONE has to say if the goblins are wielding axes, swords, or boards with nails in them.

Since, in general, the MC gets to write the world and the PCs decide what their character does, I'm inclined to say "The PC should just lump it."
-JM
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Post by Saxony »

John Magnum wrote:It really does strike me as kind of lame to see people advocating RPing as an exercise in "The players describe what they want, and then the DM narrates that". If the players decide they want katanas, well, the players should get katanas! There is some unbearably vague threshold where the DM can actually say "no", but the basic paradigm of "What the players want, the players get; the DM is an eloquent facilitator for the players' expressed desires" is a bit repugnant.
If you don't want to customize loot to the playing characters, don't play with loot. Don't let the dice decide if the players something they can use. That's you being an inept jerk hiding behind an inanimate object to harm someone's entertainment. Grow the fuck up, play nice, and turn your cell phone off in the move theater.

Now this doesn't extend to, what was your example... Having cross-species sex with a childlike character from a children's show. If we were playing FATAL, it might actually be a reasonable expectation on the players' part. I'll get back to the topic at hand (signature weapons in DnD).

DnD (a swords and sorcery fantasy game) is specifically for nerds playing out wacky kitschy ideas. "Guy who sings magically" is a base class, along with "Nature priest who has an animal friend". The group can decide to play serious time Scotland adventure, but the default is giving the guy his fucking Scimitar. DnD is an equipment based game. Someone who wants equipment gets it by default or you're an ass unless everyone agreed beforehand to play a different game. A Scimitar is in the PHB and is not overpowered. Satisfying that desire really isn't that difficult. Oh look, that greatsword I rolled for treasure suddenly turned into a scimitar before I told the party what they got. Just like prayer beads turning into a wand for the wizard.

For the general case of the DM giving the players what they want...

The group all works together to maintain a campaign setting. If they want challenge, they get it. If they want ease, they get it. The default is every participant helping each other to maintain the collective story.

No one just lumps it. Cooperation. Liking each other and doing nice things for each other. Scratching each others' backs. Having real friends you hang out with. Does any of this sound familiar or desirable on your end?

In any case, one doesn't get to shit in someone else's cheerios because they don't like character deaths, permanent disabilities, and obscure rules memorization (Also known as Dungeons and Accounting). If they want to forget verisimilitude, they get to.
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Post by Chamomile »

If you want the foreigner with his foreign weapon to be a supported trope, then it should be a supported trope. He should be able to upgrade his weapon somehow even if it's not actually reasonable to replace it, by breaking down the other items for their bonuses or something. If you don't want to support that trope but actually want him running around with whatever he happens to find, then don't let him start with a katana at all.
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Post by DSMatticus »

There were a lot of positions in this thread on either side and people don't tend to distinguish between them.

Lago's position was that katana guy is fucking evil. You absolutely should not support it in your game. Fantasy cannot support katana guy. Fuck katana guy. It's badwrongfun.

There was the more reasonable position that katana guy in the context of certain campaign settings strains either verisimilitude or party balance in the presence of a magic item treadmill. This lead to a bunch of different solutions, like "then strain verisimilitude by giving him magic items anyway," or "get rid of the magic item treadmill," or "give the character abilities that balance him with the weapon," or "enchantment transferral," or "magic item forging," or etc, etc.

But none of that has to do with Lago's position, which was that katana guy was badwrongfun and should not be supported.

But ignoring Lago's position, and considering all those solutions, there are pros and cons to each.

Some people like the verisimilitude thing, which is to some extent respectable, but at the same time sometimes a little weird: fantasy stories aren't about normal people subject to the normal rules of their universe. They are the exceptional, special individuals about who it is worth telling stories. And that means they get lucky and unlucky in sometimes ridiculous ways. But people like verisimilitude nonetheless (including me, to some extent)

I already hate the magic item treadmill and do not understand why anyone finds it desirable, and getting rid of it lets people use the same sword their entire career, so... I'm seeing no downsides to that one. Upgrading from +2 flaming to +3 frost is not cool enough to be worth anyone's damn time.

Giving weapon specialists special abilities isn't that hard or trying. Enchantment transferral/forging/ye olde magic shoppe, really depends what you want out of your game. If you want unique and awesome magic items, those really dilute the awesome because everyone one of them has a price tag now.
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Post by Username17 »

Chamomile wrote:If you want the foreigner with his foreign weapon to be a supported trope, then it should be a supported trope.

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He should be able to upgrade his weapon somehow even if it's not actually reasonable to replace it, by breaking down the other items for their bonuses or something.
What the fuck? The foreigner character who lasts long in whatever foreign land he is in frequently ends up using weapons from the area he is actually in. When weapon upgrades are involved, the character ends up upgrading to some hybrid of local and foreign equipment and if long times and lots of equipment upgrades are involved, generally local equipment eventually completely replaces foreign gear. Because the second part of the very trope you're referencing is "going native". The actual examples of long-term foreign characters with foreign equipment and fighting styles in actual fiction eventually look like this:

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Starts-with-a-katana-but-adventures-in-Europesque Guy is in fact supposed to eventually ditch the fucking katana and kabuto in favor of some sort of badass local broadsword and full helm. Just as starts-with-a-cavalry-saber-but-adventures-in-Japan guy switches over to a katana and samurai armor. Or starts-with-a-scimitar-and-silk-but-adventures-in-Nordia-guy ends up with a bastard sword and a set of heavy chainmail.

That is how the fictional trope actually works. Flash Gordon fights with a radium pistol because he lives on fucking Mongo. If you're going to make an argument that "it's a fictional trope that works in books and movies, so I should be able to do it in a cooperative storytelling game with an ensemble of protagonists" (itself a terrible argument, but whatever), then at least get the fucking trope right. The actual fictional sources you are using as the basis for your claim do not support upgrading equipment by having it stay country-of-origin for the character.

Even short-stay foreigner warriors like Ash from Army of Darkness hybridize their equipment by wearing local armor and using local swords.

-Username17
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Post by John Magnum »

"No one just lumps it"? Dude, it's an RPG. A game. There's a die. Are you trying to say that under no circumstances should the RPG generate an outcome which you do not personally feel thrilled about? You should never experience a feeling of "Damn, I wish that had gone better. I'll try harder next time"? That no Bad Thing should ever happen to a character without player approval?

Drop the game, just magic teaparty. Or better yet, write self-insert fanfic where your character gets his cool katana and everyone pats him on the back.

Maybe you'll come back with some bullshit about how players WANT there to be setbacks and undesirable results in-game. In which case we want some razzle-dazzle to pretend that such results aren't the result of MC spite, just like we want some razzle-dazzle to pretend that PC successes aren't the result of the entire game being a carefully contrived theme park designed to allow PCs to succeed. One possible setback and undesirable result is that you want a katana but the enemies have swords instead.
-JM
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Post by Fuchs »

Some people hate players who want to play something other than a wandering murdering hobo decked out in mismatching armor and wielding the magic thing with the most plusses the dice sent his way. Others don't.

That's the thread in a nutshell. All the drivel from the haters just shows how they make up arguments to "prove" that having a scimitar in europe ruins their game, even if there are a dozen plausible ways to explain how such a weapon could arrive there. The haters even go to great lengths and wreck game consistency just so players can't trade the shit the dice rolled for stuff they want.

It's sad, really. And all that just because they can't be happy unless everyone plays the same shitty character concept.
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Post by MGuy »

Why is this even a "thing" being discussed again?
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Desdan_Mervolam
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Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

Because last time, despite spanning a couple threads for a total of a couple dozen pages worth of posts, nobody really shifted their positions at all and all anyone got was butthurt and a desire to prove the people who said bad things about them on teh intarwebz are dummy doodie-heads who don't know what they're talking abount.
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Post by Maj »

I love you, Des. :maj:
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Post by talozin »

FrankTrollman wrote: The actual examples of long-term foreign characters with foreign equipment and fighting styles in actual fiction eventually look like this:
13th Warrior is an odd example to cite, being that there's a whole sequence in that movie showing how Antonio Banderas can't actually use a Viking broadsword and has to grind it down into a scimitar. I have no clue how that's supposed to work -- the weapon he ends up with is actually wider than the weapon he started with -- but in the story context this is pretty much exactly what Chamomile is demanding: there's nothing around that fits his style of sword fighting, so he breaks down Viking gear until he has a weapon that works for him.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

If this is under a D&D fantasy kitchen sink paradigm, then a katana guy with an axe guy in a pseudo-European fantasy land is perfectly acceptable. There shouldn't be a worry to break verisimilitude because there is no versimilitude to uphold outside of "fantasy, lol".

Lago keeps shifting the goalposts to Aurthurian fantasy/historical roleplaying (after sperging in other places that we need to break from that), where his argument doesn't sound like the petulant fuckery it is. Even there, you have a reasonable argument (some concepts don't fit in some games) and then goes bugfuck ( anything that doesn't fit my idea of roleplaying is badwrongfun). Then it just turns into a hatefuck circlejerk.

At the end of the day, it is the concept that should be curbed, not the weapon. There shouldn't be cowboys in King Arthur's Court unless there are also Connecticut Yankees. If you're doing Black Forest, there shouldn't be samurai unless it's Kuromori. If it's D&D, who gives a fuck; you're already fighting a smorgasbord of myth and fantasy ripoffs, what does the weapon matter? If the weapon is supposed to matter, play a game where it's supposed to or pare down the weapon groups so there's overlap. If your player wants his weapon to be an extension of his character, let him you gigantic sperglord. Fuck your loot.
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Post by John Magnum »

If I want to put sword-wielding goblins in my game, let me. Fuck the sperglording katana fetishist.
-JM
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Post by Sashi »

K wrote:Doesn't this argument devolve back to the old argument that PCs shouldn't get vertical power advancement?

I mean, the only issue with not dropping magic hoopaks or letting people enchant their own hoopaks is that you need the bonuses on them to stay on the RNG.

If you aren't worried about the RNG, "magic" and "nonmagic" is just the difference between flavor and options. I mean, the Sword or Omens shoots laser beams, but if you are just swording someone the laser-shooting ability is completely unused and unnecessary. Just carry your old damn hoopak and kill monsters with it and use a magic amulet instead of a magic sword to shoot lase beams when you need laser beams.
This.

Having characters throw aside weapons that they've come to associate with themselves (Edwin of the Flaming Sword, Horgath the Spearman of Grummsh, Shinta the Shadowknife) is just as harmful to the shared experience of the game as it is to have them grind up Excalibur and use it to improve their current weapon because they use hammers and Excalibur is a longsword.

This really applies to ALL magic items. A character with a cloak that turns into wings shouldn't have to worry about falling off the RNG because he can't upgrade his cloak, and there should never be a time when the party says "Well Gandal can fly up there, he's got wings" is met with "sorry, I can't fly anymore, there's no +4 version so now I have fire resist."
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

I feel like this thread deserves resurrection due to the questionable design decision to link races to weapons in 5e.

First, we have the obvious (and annoying) "you must be this race to do this thing" that no one actually liked from 4e. No, you will never be as good with a bow as an elf with the same stat, and the dwarf with the same stats will get a bullshit bonus to armor class you can't match. Because fuck you.

Second, it means you may as well have this stupid problem. If the orcs all use crossbows and scimitars, and you are an elf in orcland who uses rapiers and longbows, either

a) You are fucked.

b)In some dumb, immersion-breaking way, you will find a +X rapier and +X longbow.

Which is worse than deliberately making your character a swordsman because 5e does it for you.
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Post by ishy »

I honestly don't really care if an elf has on average +1 dmg with a bow and a dwarf has +1 ac.

Those bonusses are so small that I seriously can't give a fuck.
As long as playing another race gives something as well.
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Post by Saxony »

How about I ask the opposite question to figure out a general threshold, rather than we ask about something which (perhaps obviously) does even worse than the minimum threshold?

At what point would a restriction like that make someone happy? Perhaps even enough to use that as a selling point to get their friend in the game?

To talk about your question, I personally couldn't believe an entire country or territory used the same weapons, but it's plausible a DM would run with it because, hey wacky ideas not fully thought through because RPGs are make believe games.

At that point, the DM would just give the character a bow and rapier. Why? Fuck that level of attention to detail. Seriously, get over the fact that the DM will just make things happen for your character to work at least a few times.

Now.... if you want a comprehensively thought out game, I can see where your coming from. If you have someone in your group who wants to do something simply because it's cool and doesn't want to think about many consequences.... than you and that person obviously value different things.

And asking a game system to cater to either one in its explicit rules (and thus canning the other person's idea) would be rude and of course bad for sales.

So Elf Guy McLongbow gets to have his fucking longbow.

But, yeah, the whole "This race gets a bonus to XYZ nothing else gets" means all archers will be elves and that is retarded. I have a feeling that's why no race in the 3.5 PHB had a bonus to intelligence. That'd be the wizard race. Playing something else for diversity to mitigate boredom would conflict with being powerful in the game. Eventually, your character is either cookie cutter boring or ineffective.

And that would be bad. So we probably agree here CapnTthePirateG.
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Post by tussock »

Yep. Weapon specialisation is a problem. It's a useful hack to AD&D 1st edition where you could fix the Fighter math (for people not using the weapon vs armour table and weapon speeds, basically everyone) by hacking weapon proficiencies to give them more attacks at better bonuses, but 2nd edition and onward just needed Fighters to have more attacks at better bonuses.

Making it a thing where everyone in the game gets pre-chosen specialisation in a set of racial weapons, ... I can't see what they even want there. "Dwarves prefer axes, hammers, and crossbows" with no rules works well enough when all the NPCs do it, as long as those weapons don't suck too bad against goblins.
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