Pathfinder Is Still Bad

Silent Wayfarer · Post by **Silent Wayfarer** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:15 pm

I've always thought summoning worked like it did in Fate/staynight; it's basically a construct of magical power modelled after an existing being and anything done to it doesn't affect the original.

On the topic of succubi, what's their level equivalent as cohorts?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:05 am

That seems to be the case in Pathfinder, at least.

In 3.5, a succubus would be ECL 12 by normal LA rules. In PF, the leadership feat gives an incubus as a sample special cohort, which has the same HD, but a CR of 6, rather than the succubus' CR 7, and it's equivalent to level 14 for the feat.

Orca · Post by **Orca** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:44 am

ishy wrote:Or more on topic. Paizo released errata for the Advanced Racism Guide as well. The pathfinder forums are complaining about the nerfs it contains too.
Haven't really looked at it, but the scarred witch doctor no longer uses constitution to cast and now only has a special ability that its Int is considered to be 2 points higher. Because Orcs are smart these days.

Half-orcs can be smart as hell, and qualify for orc options. Mainly it switches from being an archetype which people might mistake for a front-liner (where it shines largely from being unusual rather than effective) to being a absolutely clear back-row type.

Count Arioch the 28th · Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:03 am

Yeah, I'm going to continue my pattern of ignoring the errata. I actually somewhat liked the scarred witch doctor as-is. Tell me when an errata either addresses an actual issue or beefs up the warrior types.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:18 am

Did they learn nothing from 4e?

AcidBlades · Post by **AcidBlades** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:26 am

https://mcarchetype.wikispaces.com/Crow+Druid

I'm gonna join up in a game, and I want to see if this archetype could be pimped out or not. Gut instinct tells me to just get me a medium animal, grab Trickery in order to flank, and then pound as many Sneak Attacks as I can. I would also serve as a quasi-rogue. So that nobody would pick the crappy class. Overall this archetype is probably weaker than the base druid, but is it redeemable, or should I bounce the fuck out of it?

I'm at level 6.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:03 am

ishy wrote:
Korwin wrote:Na, the Succubus never had free will in that scenario.
[threadDerail] Are you saying 'free will' doesn't exist? Or are you saying the succubus had none before he/she/it (whatever) was summoned? [/threadDerail]

Or more on topic. Paizo released errata for the Advanced Racism Guide as well. The pathfinder forums are complaining about the nerfs it contains too.
Haven't really looked at it, but the scarred witch doctor no longer uses constitution to cast and now only has a special ability that its Int is considered to be 2 points higher. Because Orcs are smart these days.

Paizo managed to accidentally do something right. All the "+½ level to a class feature" favored class bonii have been nerfed to +1/6. So Oracles are no longer "Aasimar, Elf or clown shoes", for example. The nerf reduces the lead of a few strong choices and actually opens the field.

But, as usual for Paizo, the errata storm was mostly nerfs for martials.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:15 am

DSMatticus wrote:
ishy wrote:
Korwin wrote:Na, the Succubus never had free will in that scenario.
[threadDerail] Are you saying 'free will' doesn't exist? Or are you saying the succubus had none before he/she/it (whatever) was summoned? [/threadDerail]

Or more on topic. Paizo released errata for the Advanced Racism Guide as well. The pathfinder forums are complaining about the nerfs it contains too.
Haven't really looked at it, but the scarred witch doctor no longer uses constitution to cast and now only has a special ability that its Int is considered to be 2 points higher. Because Orcs are smart these days.
Presumably, he means creatures summoned by summon monster are already not acting under their own volition. Though, summon monster has a duration measured in rounds, which puts a rather significant limit on the interplanar hanky panky. But then again if a succubus can't get you off in one round per caster level, who can?

Yes, that was my Point.

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:27 am

Lurky Lurkpants wrote:
ishy wrote:are you saying the succubus had none before he/she/it (whatever) was summoned?
Well, according to James Jacobs the succubus didn't even exist before being summoned. They are apparently "perfect copies" of the concept of a creature, despite what the book heavily implies.

Then why the school isn't conjuration (creation) ? I though creation spells created stuff while summon spells summoned stuff...

Lurky Lurkpants wrote:However they still feel pain, so he stated it is "possibly evil but ABSOLUTELY chaotic" to use them to set off traps.

Now I'm confused. I always though that Good was concerned about the pain of sentient beings, and Law/Chaos didn't care.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:37 am

GâtFromKI wrote:
Lurky Lurkpants wrote:However they still feel pain, so he stated it is "possibly evil but ABSOLUTELY chaotic" to use them to set off traps.
Now I'm confused. I always though that Good was concerned about the pain of sentient beings, and Law/Chaos didn't care.

Because setting off traps increases the dungeon's disorder, making it a chaotic act.

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:47 am

As opposed to breaking in and killing everyone, I guess...

Orca · Post by **Orca** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:17 pm

AcidBlades wrote:https://mcarchetype.wikispaces.com/Crow+Druid

I'm gonna join up in a game, and I want to see if this archetype could be pimped out or not. Gut instinct tells me to just get me a medium animal, grab Trickery in order to flank, and then pound as many Sneak Attacks as I can. I would also serve as a quasi-rogue. So that nobody would pick the crappy class. Overall this archetype is probably weaker than the base druid, but is it redeemable, or should I bounce the fuck out of it?

I'm at level 6.

1d6 sneak attack isn't enough to base your fighting style on IMO, pushing too hard for a flank gets someone/thing on your side killed.

The crow druid doesn't seem to get anything else much to do with filling the rogue role aside from 1 rogue talent/6 levels; if your GM's an arsehole about making you repeat the words 'I search for traps' then the trap spotter talent is just barely enough to justify taking this, otherwise I'd go with something like a plains druid with the monkey domain as a scout/traps expert.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:10 pm

GenCon announcements are painting Paizo's 2016-17 fiscal year as Year of Cthulu. Strange Aeons AP and Horror Adventures, based on the Old Ones, madness, turning into monsters, and generally being Call of Cthulu PF-style.

http://knowdirectionpodcast.com/2015/08 ... announced/

Count Arioch the 28th · Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:28 pm

Sounds like something I'd enjoy if Paizo had some people who were good at math working for them.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:32 pm

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:Sounds like something I'd enjoy if Paizo had some people who were good at math working for them.

Pretty much.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:21 am

TOZ wrote:GenCon announcements are painting Paizo's 2016-17 fiscal year as Year of Cthulu. Strange Aeons AP and Horror Adventures, based on the Old Ones, madness, turning into monsters, and generally being Call of Cthulu PF-style.

http://knowdirectionpodcast.com/2015/08 ... announced/

Personally, I only find horror adventures good for one-shots: if you don't have massive PC casualties, what's the point?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:42 am

hogarth wrote:
TOZ wrote:GenCon announcements are painting Paizo's 2016-17 fiscal year as Year of Cthulu. Strange Aeons AP and Horror Adventures, based on the Old Ones, madness, turning into monsters, and generally being Call of Cthulu PF-style.

http://knowdirectionpodcast.com/2015/08 ... announced/
Personally, I only find horror adventures good for one-shots: if you don't have massive PC casualties, what's the point?

erik · Post by **erik** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:52 am

Your rebuttal does not compute, Prak.

Hellboy plays more like supers. I mean, he takes on scary things and you know he's a bad ass who can handle his shit.

Horror is like The Red Book. Whenever I try to envision playing After Sundown, it is as a supers campaign.

That said, Horror games can go for more than a one shot. You can draw it out and have fun, and even have players survive. Horror can come from the uncertainty of knowing if you're gonna make it, rather than certainty that you won't.

I did roll a Hollow Earth Expedition game which was is designed to be for pulp but made it into Horror. Having the characters gathered Usual Suspects style to go on an air ship to the lost under-world while something akin to Azazel from Fallen on the ship is picking them off (starting with NPCs natch). It's scary, but the idea is that they should overcome it.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:10 am

It's still horror genre. Hellboy takes on eldritch beings and the hordes of Hell, the fact that he actually has the ability to do so does not mean his world is not a horror world. After Sundown posits people playing the monsters and doesn't really make a big deal about existential horror, let alone other forms of horror, except as something that the NPC peons experience, it's still a horror game.

I guess the point I should be making is that there is a difference between a Horror Game, and a game in a Horror Setting. Old school Call of Cthulhu is a horror game, I guess, what with the object apparently who can die in the coolest way*. But if you ran a game about stabbing Jason, Freddy and Michael in the face, it may not be a horror game but is a game in a horror setting.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:19 am

hogarth wrote:Personally, I only find horror adventures good for one-shots: if you don't have massive PC casualties, what's the point?

You can pad it out by having massive NPC casualties, so long as the players understand that plot armor is not going to save them for long.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:33 am

Yeah, Hellboy isn't horror. Or at least, everything I have seen isn't. You could have horror in which hellboy was the protagonist, but it would involve people dying all the time, him losing everyone he is close to on a constant basis, and there being collateral damage on the order of tens of thousands.

You could run Aftersundown as horror, but the ideal way to me would be to star them as "regular characters" with detailed lives, and live that for a day or two, introducing friends and co-workers and family if they don't have enough, then have them undergo a transformation, and then play the immediate aftermath, them working to keep their old life, while having to feed on people, or integrating into the supernatural community and finding their friends and family to be a liability, and slowly killing them off or distancing themselves from these people over and over, until eventually, they just aren't there anymore, and they feel lonely and transformed.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:25 am

Been reading Pathfinder's Occult Adventures, and I can't help but notice that Create Mindscape is freakin' terrifying as an attack spell. A level 4 or 5 spell, long range, no save, no line of sight, make you and the subject immobile and flat-footed for an entire combat. Not all that good for mooks, but if the BBEG can be hit with phantasms...

Count Arioch the 28th · Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:42 am

You'd have to have friends you can trust, but if you're in a party and the bad guy is not then yes, I agree. (personally I've abandoned the one, single big fight and instead use the boss plus several henchmen nearly leveled up to the BBEG as to be a threat, plus numerous mooks to give limited support/be extra bodies on the floor). I REALLY like Occult Adventures, I just wish the classes were written better. The Kineticist really rustles my jimmies regarding how awesome it seems yet how terrible it actually is...

Regarding Hellboy, I'd consider Hellboy as much horror as Castlevania is. It has superficial horror-themed stuff but it's more about action and fighting. Alternately, I could see Erik's point about it being more of a Superhero movie as well.

Granted, I've only read a few of the graphic novels so I don't know the primary source, but the ones I read, the two hellboy live action movies and the animated movie I saw seemed to be themed around Ron Pearlman beating the crap out of things.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:05 am

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:I could see Eric's
Eric's
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Anywho, yeah, if a setting is horror because badwrongthings are happening, then Marvel and DC universes are equally horror settings because they're chock-full of supervillains and existential threats.

I can see After Sundown as a horror setting since it explicitly invokes tropes like bad cell phones, uninvolved authorities, and what-not. I don't recall Hellboy being that.

Hellboy just seems like a supers setting where the bad guys are nazis, demons and eldritch horrors rather than red skull, mephisto and galactus.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:21 am

Yeah, as I realized in my edit, Hellboy is a supers character in a horror setting. I don't really see anything wrong with that.