The Gaming Den

Posted: **Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:09 pm**

Longes wrote:No no no no. You have a motorbike with legs, arm and a rigger cocoon bolted to it. The motorbikes are about the size of a troll. Shadowrun is in the high tech future with silent electric motors, so the whole thing is pretty quiet. You can sneak in it wherever a troll infiltrator would fit.

Yes, I know how to do it in SR. I was talking about Snow Crash.

Also, for the record, I am totally into players doing that. The more chrome the team is sporting, the more bullets I can throw at them. And more dakka is ALWAYS better.

Posted: **Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:25 pm**

I'm trying to design a variant spell that just makes the target bigger. While I can expect any worn gear to not be enlarged, how would such a spell interact with the subject's cyberware? Shapechange seems to restrict the range of transformations to critters with a difference in Body no more than 2 points; is this a property of magic itself with regards to mass conservation, or just the spell? Other than Reach, what stats are required to be modified with a change in size?

Posted: **Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:34 pm**

None are required. Increase in size doesn't have to directly translate to increase in muscular strength, dexterity, ability to resist damage etc.

Posted: **Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:55 pm**

It does typically make you easier to hit with anti-tank rockets...

Posted: **Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:34 pm**

virgil wrote:While I can expect any worn gear to not be enlarged, how would such a spell interact with the subject's cyberware?

It would get transformed along with the subject, as it's paid for with Essence and counts as part of your aura.

virgil wrote:Shapechange seems to restrict the range of transformations to critters with a difference in Body no more than 2 points; is this a property of magic itself with regards to mass conservation

Yes. So you're basically restricted to an Inflate spell that doesn't alter mass, but only volume.

Posted: **Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:34 pm**

Well way back when there was a player who came up with their version of this and included it in a grimoire which an be seen here:
thor.divnull.com/pub/srun/CollectedNAGEE/pdf/6Magic.pdf

Enlarge Object
Minotaur
Type: Physical Range: LOS Duration: Sust.
Target: Object resistance test Drain: [(F÷2)+2]S
This spell enlarges any object or living entity. The
physical attributes of the object/entity are increased by the
number of successes. Every two successes increases the
size of the object/entity by 100%. (ie: 2 successes
doubles the size, 4 successes triples the size, 6 successes
quadruples the size, etc.)
Major physical change +0/S
Physical spell +1/S
Sustained spell +2/S
»Previously here just as Enlarge, this spell was both physical
an required a voluntary target. Inanimate objects cannot be
considered to be voluntary, so I made took out that restriction
and add the following mana version of this spell.«
— Wordman (18:24:54/7-6-57)
Enlarge Person
Minotaur
Type: Mana Range: LOS Duration: Sust.
Target: Willpower Drain: [(F÷2)+1]M
This spell enlarges any voluntary living entity. The
physical attributes of the entity are increased by the
number of successes. Every two successes increases the
size of the entity by 100%. (ie: 2 successes doubles the
size, 4 successes triples the size, 6 successes quadruples
the size, etc.)
Major physical change +0/S
Sustained spell +1/S
Voluntary target required +1/M
»This spell is great for reaching those really high shelves in
your Kitchen!«
— Whisper
»Umm, Whisper, you’re a dwarf. My counter top is a really
high shelf to you…«
— Gargoyle

Now obviously this was written for an earlier edition as seen by the drain codes, but it might serve as a baseline to play with...

Posted: **Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:17 am**

Question: What happens when a swarm of Drones attacks? How do da rures work?

Posted: **Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:42 am**

Which drones? But typically it depends on how they're being controlled (command, auto, or rigged).

Posted: **Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:00 pm**

Well I don't think one can Rig/ Control more drones then 1 at once however the idea is as follows;

Buy a ton of Bust a Moves (15 or so), give them Targeting "Slap Patches" Autosoft (With GMs approval), and have them overwhelm the opponent with pure numbers. They don't have to hit hard if they are hitting you with Arsenic filled patches or "Stick N Shock" Amma (With Gms Aproval).

Posted: **Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:43 am**

a) depends on how you define rigging. jumping in/commander chair mode? only one drone at a time. But you can give them orders and they will, kinda like spirits, try and fullfill those orders using their internal logic. autopilot or whatever it's called. Drones, like spirits, are THE force multipliers to have available. And they will, for exactly that reason, be exactly as stupid as your GM wants them to be doing this.

b) get a swarm of small flying drones, equip them with dart guns for chems or regular guns for SnS for the same effect?

Posted: **Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:23 am**

Well the advantage of Bust a Moves over flying drones is that they are MUCH MUCH cheaper then even the cheapest flying drone. Plus anthroform. Attacking by hand means you don't have to pay for a gun and pay for repairs when they get destroyed. A destroyed flying drone (That my GM will rule can carry a gun) would be a setback of akin too 3000 per dead drone (With Gun and Gun Mount). Bust a Moves cost 350$, and are still microdrones so still easy to transport. So the advantage is replaceability. So if one goes down you can still splurge for a 10 pack for the same cost.

Anyway I knew about autopilot I was asking if there where drone swarm rules.

Posted: **Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:26 pm**

It's still a swarm of shitty toy drones that are restricted to fairly slow ground movement and are destroyed immediately by about anything. Lots of opponents worth bringing a drone swarm along have ways to counter that, or to counter toxins. Which, btw, do not take effect until the end of the combat turn. While that's unbelievably fast for a transdermaly administered substance, it's still plenty of time to kill half of your team.

Granted, it's one of the few drone swarms that looks totally harmless, but it's still more out of place in most corp facilities than the building's own cleaning drones, hacked in advance and modified with toxin gas grenades in the dust filters.

Posted: **Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:28 pm**

Shrieking Banshee wrote:Anyway I knew about autopilot I was asking if there where drone swarm rules.

I don't think they're for drones specifically, but rules for swarms / mischiefs / packs / etc. in general are in Running Wild, around p. 25. A lot of the examples there are assuming small, poisonous creatures, which is fairly analogous to microdrones with drugs.

Posted: **Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:27 am**

For Drone Swarms, it is pretty much either set them all to autopilot or broadcast your orders to all i think.
Actually, now that i am thinking about it . . do the rules actually allow broadcast use one action to order around n drones? O.o
I can't remember thad actually having come up anywhere . . not SR2, not SR3, not SR4, not SR5 not here, not dumpshock . . of course, my memory is pretty bad nowadays <.<

Posted: **Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:38 pm**

Anyway why are Cyberlimbs bad?

Posted: **Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:04 pm**

Cost too high, benefit too low.
Frank (i think?) did some very good work with them in SR4 and made them at least viable in some cases/builds, but overall, Cloned limbs/Bioware Muscles/Armor are just superior. Mainly on account of Essence being a fucking hard limit. It is ALWAYS better to spend more money than to spend more essence . .

Posted: **Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:09 am**

IIRC, Cyberlimbs are ok in the one specific instance where you play a face that dumps the hell out of combat stats to fire a pistol with a cyberhand.

Posted: **Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:46 am**

They are best used for shenanigans . .
such as using a partial cyberlimb which costs 0,2 or so essence to put in, lets say a nanite hive which costs 0,5 essence or something like that using capacity instead of essence.
Also, you can make the argument that you could use a cyber-arm with a grapple-hand to make touch based spell attacks from 20m or so away.
No idea why you would actually want to, but you could.
As i said, edge cases and shenanigans. Cyberlimbs are mostly style over substance use for fun ideas instead of best bang for the buck.
Sadly, shadowrun DOES NOT WANT YOU to go full Terminator. Or even Robocop. Even though Cyber is a tres chic trend in some parts of sprawls, it is still for some reason heavily frowned upon to have obvious bits poking out. And not just the spikey ones either.
And as of SR4 what with cyberware scanners and millimeter radar being cheap and small, it's basically unuseable. And for some reason, most GMs seem to have less of a problem doing that than blanketing all of Seattle in Rating 1-2 BGC for example.

Posted: **Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:42 am**

Shrieking Banshee wrote:Anyway why are Cyberlimbs bad?

The game treats cyberlimb stats as a replacement for your meat stats or as part of an average rather than a simple bonus. This means that fundamentally there's no real incentive to have both Will Smith's abs and Will Smith's metal I, Robot arm. Base attributes, muscle augs and cyberlimbs end up competing with each other in the same marketplace and ultimately the full limb replacements basically just fucking lose because they are incapable of properly teaming up with the other two options.

Posted: **Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:20 am**

The advantage cyberlimbs have is that they are the best source of stackable armor in the game. If you want to be a tank you are going to wear cyberlimbs. Also the whole "capacity" thing is pretty useful. For example, if you want to have a nanohive you are going to put it in a cyberlimb, not implant it directly.

Posted: **Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:42 am**

Yeah, the stacking of armor is pretty neat . . too bad it is still kinda useless, because SnS, Chem-Tech weapons and Magic more or less ignore it . .

Posted: **Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:51 pm**

You also can't really afford to go whole hog on cyberlimbs and also still cram in IP boosters. Basically, I've found the best niche for them is to dump the shit out of your attributes and be a heavily armored skill monkey. It's not a character concept that people think to try very often though, especially since many newbies have this bizarre preconception that generalists should be unaugmented people.

Posted: **Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:01 pm**

Which is dumb as shit, seeing how SKILLWIRES are a thing that exists.
That is one of the FEW THINGS where cyber actually allows you to do something neither Bio nor Gen, Nano or Magic allows you to do . .

Posted: **Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:59 pm**

Another fringe case where SR4 cyberlimbs are an excellent option are ultra-low Essence cyberzombies.
Not only are plenty of cyberlimbs pretty much mandatory if you want to drive Essence down low enough while still using deltaware. The biggest mechanical selling point of SR4 cyberzombies is that their negative Essence gets added to the hardcap on all of their attributes - in a system that already favors attributes over skills, that's a pretty huge deal.
And once you're at Essence -6, customized cyberlimbs are usually the only way to immediately bring your physical attributes up to their augmented maximium. Simply because stuff like muscle augmentation caps out at level 4, whereas customized cyberlimbs' stats can be raised up to your augmented maximum. Which may be in the low 20s for some cyberzombies.

Posted: **Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:43 pm**

True, but not really something you'd call a viable concept for players . .

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