The reason why fighters will never have nice things.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:10 pm

No one said 3 times as strong pound for pound you dumbass, until right now, because it turns out you are totally incorrect when we look at actual math and the actual Marvel lore, so you decided to just make shit up.

Novembermike · Post by **Novembermike** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:17 pm

Kaelik wrote:No one said 3 times as strong pound for pound you dumbass, until right now, because it turns out you are totally incorrect when we look at actual math and the actual Marvel lore, so you decided to just make shit up.

Ok, I got a misquote on that, the actual thing is that they're three times as dense and just as strong pound for pound, so those guys that look like they're ~2000 lbs are pushing 6k and are still built like bodybuilders. I misinterpreted how they got their numbers, but it's still correct.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I'm seeing a lot of insults and not too many facts. Must be having some problems forming a coherent argument?

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:24 pm

http://marvel.wikia.com/Frost_Giants#Av ... ngth_level
It says they're three times as dense as humans and 20-30 feet tall. They also shrink when exposed to heat.

Which means that if they can lift just as much relative to their weight, then they are about 28 points stronger than humans, presuming "20-30ft" is interpreted to mean "huge".

EDIT: wait, it says the ones in the movie are 10ft tall, so 18 points stronger and large, given the same presupposition that they have the same carrying capacity relative to weight.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:42 pm

Wait, how does the "pound for pound" thing affect this? I'm genuinely curious as to the logic there.

The only thing I could see is saying that it means three times as strong as a human, if the human is large size, which means the giants would have a 26 str.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:53 pm

Lifting capacity pound-for-pound. This is not, in fact, stated in the wiki, which instead states that they have "superhuman strength"

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:59 pm

Ok, so that could seriously just be "Yep, they're large creatures with a further +2 to strength (for a 20 after sizing a human up)"

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:01 pm

I am aware of this. The math was more fun my way.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:04 pm

I'm still not sure what your math is. Just curious.

wouldn't it be wonderful, though, if Novembermike just rage quit?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:26 pm

Novembermike wrote:Ok, I got a misquote on that, the actual thing is that they're three times as dense and just as strong pound for pound, so those guys that look like they're ~2000 lbs are pushing 6k and are still built like bodybuilders. I misinterpreted how they got their numbers, but it's still correct.

Once again, no. They are three times as strong. They are three times as dense. They are not as strong pound for pound. Because that's dumb as shit. They are in fact, 3 times as strong. Period.

So you take the Str of a human, who can lift on average 100 pounds, and then multiply by 3. And you get 300 lbs.

Novembermike wrote:EDIT: Oh yeah, and I'm seeing a lot of insults and not too many facts. Must be having some problems forming a coherent argument?

That's because you are one of those idiots who sees an insult, and immediately wipes their mind of any facts. The fact is that it does not say "pound for pound" anywhere ever. So at any point at all that you decide to declare them X stronger because of their weight, you are smoking crack.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:55 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:I'm still not sure what your math is. Just curious.

wouldn't it be wonderful, though, if Novembermike just rage quit?

If their carrying capacity is proportional to their weight, they can carry (their density / human's density) * (their height / human's height) * (their width / human's width) * (their length / human's length)

so, (3) * (24/6) * (24/6) * (24/6) for the huge ones, or 192 times human carrying capacity

Divide that by the huge-size multiplier of 4, and you get 48 x human STR, which is 4 * 4 * 2 * 1.5, or +10 +10 +5 +about3 = 28

The large ones (3) * (10/5) * (10/5) * (10/5) or 24x carrying capacity; divide that by 2 for being large, and you get 12x, or 4 * 2 * 1.5, or +10 +5 +about3 = 18

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:59 pm

RadiantPhoenix wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:I'm still not sure what your math is. Just curious.

wouldn't it be wonderful, though, if Novembermike just rage quit?
If their carrying capacity is proportional to their weight, they can carry (their density / human's density) * (their height / human's height) * (their width / human's width) * (their length / human's length)

so, (3) * (24/6) * (24/6) * (24/6) for the huge ones, or 192 times human carrying capacity

Divide that by the huge-size multiplier of 4, and you get 48 x human STR, which is 4 * 4 * 2 * 1.5, or +10 +10 +5 +about3 = 28

The large ones (3) * (10/5) * (10/5) * (10/5) or 24x carrying capacity; divide that by 2 for being large, and you get 12x, or 4 * 2 * 1.5, or +10 +5 +about3 = 18

...ah, I see, you're someone who paid attention in math class. Terrifying.

echoVanguard · Post by **echoVanguard** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:02 pm

If he'd really paid attention in math class, he'd have calculated it using integrals.

echo

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:25 pm

We have a term for that in my field. It's called "why the hell are you using bubblesort, dumbass".

echoVanguard · Post by **echoVanguard** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:53 pm

It could be worse. They could be using a non-recursive bubblesort.

echo

Novembermike · Post by **Novembermike** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:22 am

RadiantPhoenix wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:I'm still not sure what your math is. Just curious.

wouldn't it be wonderful, though, if Novembermike just rage quit?
If their carrying capacity is proportional to their weight, they can carry (their density / human's density) * (their height / human's height) * (their width / human's width) * (their length / human's length)

so, (3) * (24/6) * (24/6) * (24/6) for the huge ones, or 192 times human carrying capacity

Divide that by the huge-size multiplier of 4, and you get 48 x human STR, which is 4 * 4 * 2 * 1.5, or +10 +10 +5 +about3 = 28

The large ones (3) * (10/5) * (10/5) * (10/5) or 24x carrying capacity; divide that by 2 for being large, and you get 12x, or 4 * 2 * 1.5, or +10 +5 +about3 = 18

That seems about right, although you should really be starting from at least 16 or so because they're not exactly proportional to a standard human, they're more built like bodybuilders. But the math seems reasonable, if very approximate.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:08 am

listen you fucking nerds

stop trying perform complex mathematical functions when trying to stat something up. you know what "dude they're three times as strong pound for pound hurrrr" means? it means the writer is full of shit and is saying something that he thinks sounds awesome. it's not meant to be taken as gospel. you know what it amounts to? it means that frost giants are large size and they have a strength of 26.

you know why? because giving them a +8 strength modifier is significantly less retarded than trying to figure out the exact strength based on some retard "POUND FER POUND BYTCHES" statement that is purely fluff and not crunch. do you think the fucking writer actually meant that a giant weighing 250 pounds would be as strong as a human weighing 750 lbs? no you idiots god I could stab all of you in the face

max human strength is +4. double that shit and there you have a plus fucking eight stat mod and that sounds about right to me.

now as far as the robot's laser beams go, you're all still retarded. it has the ability to one-hit humans and cars. in general, energy attacks in D&D can do up to 1d6 per HD because that seems to be what they were shooting for (ignoring the under-CRed dragons). that laser beam ability is doing enough to vaporize government employees and cars in a single hit.

so here's a link to d20 modern stats for cars.

civilian cars seem to range between 30 and 34 hp with a hardness of 5. so basically a fire weapon is going to need to consistently do 36+ damage to reliably destroy a vehicle. let's make it easy and say that the destroyer has a 10d6 laser in his face.

right there we see that we have 10 HD to work with. now that thing has damage reduction 10/adamantine (or perhaps 10/magic) we'll say because human weapons don't do shit to it. and it has some natural armor too but we'll get to that in a second

so let's see what we have here.

large construct with 10 HD: 10d10 + 30 HP (85 HP)
laser beam: 10d6 fire damage
str 26
dr 10/adamantine

let's check the monster manual for tips

oh wait here's a goddamn clay golem. 11 HD and it has dr 10/adamantine. so we trade out 1 HD and magic immunity and a few other shitty abilities for a 10d6 laser. we'll drop the CR by 1 since the destroyer can't haste itself, it lost one HD, and golems are kind of retarded encounters to begin with

so thor has to be able to reliably kill a goddamn CR 9

THERE'S YOUR FUCKING STARTING POINT IF YOU WANT TO QUIBBLE ABOUT THIS SHIT

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:30 am

PR, If we didn't want to quibble about this shit, we wouldn't be posting in this thread.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:04 am

echoVanguard wrote:It could be worse. They could be using a non-recursive bubblesort.

It can always be worse, doing that is trivial. Just add more loops, more allocations, or more exponentiations. Hell, they could be using snailsort.

Psychic Robot wrote:stop trying perform complex mathematical functions when trying to stat something up

The point of a game is to have fun, why do you hate fun?

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:31 am

Novembermike wrote:That seems about right, although you should really be starting from at least 16 or so because they're not exactly proportional to a standard human, they're more built like bodybuilders. But the math seems reasonable, if very approximate.

Those are the racial modifiers, not the actual ability scores.

Novembermike · Post by **Novembermike** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:36 am

RadiantPhoenix wrote:
Novembermike wrote:That seems about right, although you should really be starting from at least 16 or so because they're not exactly proportional to a standard human, they're more built like bodybuilders. But the math seems reasonable, if very approximate.
Those are the racial modifiers, not the actual ability scores.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It's a little weird since they all seem to have bodybuilder physiques, but your numbers are about right.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:01 am

Presuming the premise of them having the same carrying capacity per unit weight as humans is correct. This would be unrealistic, but then again, it is comic-book land.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:10 am

Novembermike wrote:
RadiantPhoenix wrote:
Novembermike wrote:That seems about right, although you should really be starting from at least 16 or so because they're not exactly proportional to a standard human, they're more built like bodybuilders. But the math seems reasonable, if very approximate.
Those are the racial modifiers, not the actual ability scores.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It's a little weird since they all seem to have bodybuilder physiques, but your numbers are about right.

Could be only the Str 16-18 rolled ones end up being part of the armed forces/aka being present when invaders show up. Maybe some flabby Frost Giants live on the other side of the planet or something.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:24 am

Even granting an extra two BAB and damage, that doesn't really class them as 4 CR higher.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:36 am

Oh no, I'm not trying to justify these absurdly large CRs or anything.

Just saying, that's probably why all the Frost Giants look like body builders. Because so do the three, and the girl, and thor, and heimdall. Elites look like elites. (Loki of course, is a magician, and so doesn't have to be muscly, and he is a frost giant too, though admittedly, probably shrunken from the heat.)

For CR, I peg Frost Giants as CR 2-4 at best when they don't have the casket. And the destroyer as CR 6-8.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:00 am

RadiantPhoenix wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:I'm still not sure what your math is. Just curious.

wouldn't it be wonderful, though, if Novembermike just rage quit?
If their carrying capacity is proportional to their weight, they can carry (their density / human's density) * (their height / human's height) * (their width / human's width) * (their length / human's length)

so, (3) * (24/6) * (24/6) * (24/6) for the huge ones, or 192 times human carrying capacity

Divide that by the huge-size multiplier of 4, and you get 48 x human STR, which is 4 * 4 * 2 * 1.5, or +10 +10 +5 +about3 = 28

The large ones (3) * (10/5) * (10/5) * (10/5) or 24x carrying capacity; divide that by 2 for being large, and you get 12x, or 4 * 2 * 1.5, or +10 +5 +about3 = 18

And that's what makes it Phantasy Physics, btw. In the real world, weight is cubed but strength is squared when you scale up.