The Gaming Den

So they released a book a few weeks ago with archetypes that give Fighters and Rogues spell casting. Fighters lose some random fighter crap and get Bloodrager casting and cantrips. Better than a vanilla Fighter, still not sure how useful that is. The Rogue loses some standard Rogue crap, like SA progression but gets Bard casting with the Wizard's spell list.

PF has shat out a lot of 6th level casters, I can't say if this new Rogue is the strongest of all of them, but it has the best list. I don't know if they think that losing 5 dice of sneak attack is an even trade or if they where like fuck it, everyone gets spells. Also Magi get access to Bard spells now. After 5 years PF might have done something to actually buff Fighters and Rogues.

... by giving them spellcasting. Don't misunderstand me, it's better than nothing at all but it's still extremely funny to me.

Buffing fighters and rogues by actually making them inferior casters. Brilliant.

But at least then everybody and their dog will recognize the power discrepancy.

Haven't seen either, but reports of the rogue archetype is that it has to give up half of everything for the privilege of casting - only 4+Int skill points, 1 rogue talent/4 levels, half the sneak attack. Wizard 3/rogue 1/arcane trickster 10 (w/the additional sneak attack feat to qualify) is going to be both a better caster and better at sneak attack, while losing only a little ability with skills. If the archetype is applied to the pathfinder unchained rogue then it will be better at melee than an arcane trickster, true.

Again, IMO paizo's need to not overshadow existing characters keeps this archetype unimpressive.

SO... Alchemist exists right? There is already a class that has full SA progression and Bard spell progression.

How is a Rogue with Bard spell progression and full SA too broken to allow?

Kaelik wrote:SO... Alchemist exists right? There is already a class that has full SA progression and Bard spell progression.

How is a Rogue with Bard spell progression and full SA too broken to allow?

Because they are balancing toward Core, you don't balance toward non-core: silly that ways leads to being smart.

I do find it funny as above, the way to balance Linear warrior issue is make them all casters.

The general consensus is that the vivisectionest is better than a rogue in nearly all ways. Which means a rogue with bard spellcasting can't be as good as a vivisectionist because Paizo eats all the dicks.

Check this line out... I wish I was kidding:

Pathfinder Rules wrote:No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution(such as when calculating a breath weapon’s DC).

I don't know what super cheap undead methods exist for Pathfinder, but goddam, if nothing else, all Sorcerers should just save up enough money for a single or double casting of Polymorph Any Object depending on how your DM rules undead vs humans, then your Human Undead Sorcerer can have a bunch of spells known, and then also have more HP than anyone else, and a better Fort save (but also be immune to fort saves that don't effect objects) along with all the other undead immunities.

Be a lich.

The Monsters as PC rules apply a level decrease when you start as a monster, but there's no word on what happens when you apply a template to yourself. Notably absent is the 3.5 concept where something like a drow treats themselves as 2 levels higher on the XP chart. So a few things happen:

1) You were a generic human sorcerer with no monster CR or HD. You gain +2 CR, but because you were at the same level of power as everyone else, you gain power normally.

2)Same as above, but you get a free level in 3 levels due to the half CR rule (I will bet any amount of money no DM will allow this ever)

3)You get a +2 LA, 3.X style (maybe) that becomes a +1 LA in about 2 levels. In the meantime you are an unkillable undead menace in a party of fighters and shit. You can still have dazing fireballs and you get a little cha boost, so you can still throw out save-or-dies that people care about.

As far as I can tell option 1 is what actually happens by the rules, with no mention of slowed leveling at all. Googling the rules gets the usual "well you can't just be a lich, you must snort 5 puppies first".

Who knows.

Well, I'd still prefer something that kicks in before level 12. Polymorph Any Object twice is probably cheaper than buying two Prayer Beads so that you can turn into a Lich at level 4.

Being a generic undead is 16 pts in Race Builder.

ScottS wrote:Being a generic undead is 16 pts in Race Builder.

Partial Problem in that then you can't get Sorcerer Human Spells known.

Kaelik wrote:Check this line out... I wish I was kidding:

For the HP that's just sensible (though at that point maybe they don't need a d12 hit die? Just saying...), and of course a few of "serious challenge, also if you want to be an Undead then be this" Undead creatures in 3.5 had that as a special ability (Unholy Grace). So I could see the new patched edition just writing that in as standard.

Then they went all-out crazy and just let you use a stat that is likely to be good (and likely to have a template/racial bonus) to replace a stat that doesn't exist for you and suddenly things are going out of control.

Koumei wrote:

Kaelik wrote:Check this line out... I wish I was kidding:

For the HP that's just sensible (though at that point maybe they don't need a d12 hit die? Just saying...), and of course a few of "serious challenge, also if you want to be an Undead then be this" Undead creatures in 3.5 had that as a special ability (Unholy Grace). So I could see the new patched edition just writing that in as standard.

Then they went all-out crazy and just let you use a stat that is likely to be good (and likely to have a template/racial bonus) to replace a stat that doesn't exist for you and suddenly things are going out of control.

Uh... HP is like three fourths of the problem. Like, I don't really care that they have a higher Fort Save in addition to being immune to 95% of fort save effects. It's not terrible, but it's not the end of the world.

The Problem is 100% that you just told a caster class that they are allowed to cast off of their Con stat. And that's fucking dumb. It was dumb when Faire Mysteries Innate did it for Wizards, and it's dumb when Sorcerers get to do it too.

You can write any goddam HP number you want on any monster in the monster manual, so if you write the rules for getting Cha to HP, the only people it matters for are PCs, and PCs with a Charisma score of 26 are going to rip your throat out after they turn that into their HP stat.

Koumei wrote:

Kaelik wrote:Check this line out... I wish I was kidding:

For the HP that's just sensible (though at that point maybe they don't need a d12 hit die? Just saying...), and of course a few of "serious challenge, also if you want to be an Undead then be this" Undead creatures in 3.5 had that as a special ability (Unholy Grace). So I could see the new patched edition just writing that in as standard.

Then they went all-out crazy and just let you use a stat that is likely to be good (and likely to have a template/racial bonus) to replace a stat that doesn't exist for you and suddenly things are going out of control.

They get d8s in Pathfinder.

Polymorph effects also don't change your creature type, you need to actually be an undead creature of some kind.

It's a nice benefit, but really it's just HP. If your defenses are poor, you could lose them all in one bad round anyway, and if your defenses are good, you might not be getting hit at all. I'm not saying it isn't useful, but it's not going to break the game if "being a full caster" wasn't already doing that.

Re: Playing as monsters - while a little ambiguous, the only reading you're going to get the green light to actually play is that ECL = CR + class levels, reduced over time until ECL = CR/2 (min 1) + class levels. That's still a bargain deal, but it does mean that no template is going to be completely free - a Ghost Sorcerer is pretty boss, but he is one more level behind in casting, down to "Wizard cohort rate".

Axebird wrote:Polymorph effects also don't change your creature type, you need to actually be an undead creature of some kind.

That's a fine thing to claim, but it isn't supported by the rules at all, because Pathfinder is (unsurprisingly) terrible.

The "reason" that polymorph doesn't grant type is because it basically says "if you turn into an animal, use animal shape, if plant, plantshape, ect." But you know what.... Polymorph Any Object lets you turn into a goddam undead. And there is no fucking undead shape. So when you turn into an undead, it can't be that you use beast shape, or elemental body, or plant shape, or form of the dragon, or alter self.

So in conclusion... If you cast Polymorph Any Object to turn into an undead, the universe explodes, you light your Pathfinder book on fire, and go play a game with better polymorph rules, which... is sadly 3e. Because wholly shit, how do you make polymorph rules less functional than fucking 3e? Apparently by hiring the 3e team to write more failures of polymorph rules.

Ice9 wrote:It's a nice benefit, but really it's just HP. If your defenses are poor, you could lose them all in one bad round anyway, and if your defenses are good, you might not be getting hit at all. I'm not saying it isn't useful, but it's not going to break the game if "being a full caster" wasn't already doing that.

Yeah, that's fucking bullshit and totally wrong. Just like always. Being a Sorcerer with more spells known is Baller, but having 8HP per level starting at level 2, and then scaling up to 17HP per level without spending a PB point or money on a con enhancer is not "meh, nothing" it is literally the difference between having more HP than anyone else in the fucking game, or having the lowest HP in the game.

That's a valid point. I wasn't thinking from the perspective of PCs, which I should have seeing as it was the point you were making. I was thinking from the perspective of enemies, where any time I've tried using a challenging Undead opponent (as opposed to a bunch of weak skeletons that are supposed to explode), it's been:
A) Steamrolled in one round
B) Something with like 30 hit dice as a CR 12 monster
C) Something that adds Charisma to hit points (and just flat-out has "the appropriate number" for Charisma)
D) Something that ended up having a bullshit ability like "Aura of Start Drowning, Fuck You".

I can totally see it being crazy for the PC Sorcerer to run about with 1d8+4 hit points per hit die when the Fighter has 1d10+2 or something because the Fighter doesn't use Con to hit people with a stick and the Sorcerer DOES use Charisma to set people on fire. That you then get a nice big bonus to Saving Throws vs Disintegrate Specifically is just a handy little extra, and Concentration is just a Spellcraft check now, isn't it?

Axebird wrote:Undead anatomy

Okay, but Greater Polymorph doesn't say you use Undead Anatomy, so the universe still explodes, you burn your books, and play a not shit game.

CapnTthePirateG wrote:"well you can't just be a lich, you must snort 5 puppies first".

Look, I love animals, and abhor cruelty to them, but if someone told me that I would turn into an awesome undead wizard by snorting five puppies, I'd be googling "how to turn puppies into a powder."

There is no Greater Polymorph in Pathfinder, just saying...

Charisma is a bullshit stat morping into a god stat.
Core it's useless unless you are a Sorcerer or Bard.
Since it's so useless the authors decided to make it better by giving the Stat Bonus to different things. This got repeated multiple times until with a little optimization you could get it to multiple things.
This happened in 3.5, since Pathfinder does not learn from mistakes I'm not surprised they did that too...

Antariuk wrote:There is no Greater Polymorph in Pathfinder, just saying...

Look you fucking idiot, I didn't pay for those shit books, so I'm operating on the fucking SRD which says:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spell ... any-object

"This spell functions like greater polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another."

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph

"Polymorph, Greater

School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 7

DESCRIPTION
This spell functions as polymorph except that it allows the creature to take on the form of a dragon or plant creature."

There is no Greater Polymorph in 3e, as far as I can tell it was specifically invented by Pathfinder, and you are so full of shit that you had this entire conversation without fucking reading the goddam text of Polymorph Any Object, you fucking idiot.