The Gaming Den

Mask_De_H wrote:And why can't fighters ever get nice things?

I don't know what to tell you -- most of the PCs I've seen using weapon cords or jingasas have been spellcasters, not fighters. Especially weapon cords, since spellcasters have a much bigger need to keep one hand free than fighters do.

Why can't fighters get nice things that don't make spellcasters better?

hogarth wrote:

Mask_De_H wrote:And why can't fighters ever get nice things?

I don't know what to tell you -- most of the PCs I've seen using weapon cords or jingasas have been spellcasters, not fighters. Especially weapon cords, since spellcasters have a much bigger need to keep one hand free than fighters do.

Why can't fighters get nice things that don't make spellcasters better?

But the thing is Jingasa wasn't just nerfed, it was nuked from orbit. Plus, luck bonus fit the name.

Now, the only reason to use it is you have 3-4 rings you want to wear (there is Meridian belt and Hand of Glory for an extra ring) because you can get a deflection bonus for cheaper in ring form instead. Plus Free Thinker Cap emulates cheaper the Crit ability.

These nerfs follow the recent idiotic Paizo trend of rewriting material to make it worthless and calling it "errata". It is a great way to piss off fans that like having books that work, and also please the gonard "omg you bothered to care if your character was effective, dirty munchkin/power gamer/cheater, kill with fire!" crowd.

It pisses me off.

The jingasa won't screw over people's concepts by effectively vanishing from the game. Some characters (e.g. tattooed half-orcs) lost an AC point or two and an occasionally useful defensive ability, but should still be as viable really.

Brawling armor is harder - it being out of your price range for most of the game means that armored but unarmed warriors become a lot worse, in some cases impractically bad. A minor group but one definitively hit.

Nerfing the other stuff into uselessness like feather step slippers and bracers of falcon's aim shouldn't break people's characters I think?

It is odd that whenever they nerf stuff they feel an urge to make the nerfed options entirely useless rather than applying a lighter touch.

Fighters in Pathfinder still have secret class feature: Artifact Sword. The relative goodness or overpricedness of purchasable magic items is essentially meaningless for non-casters because actual monks in actual games still get custom tiger amulets given to them by the DM as soon as they realize how severely they underperform.

-Username17

So, the srd tells me how the weapon cord got errata'd, but what happened with the Jingasa, just a bonus type change?

That, and also the thing where you could avoid a crit/sneak attack once a day became once per ever. As in, if that item was used to avoid a crit, it can never do so again.

Ugh. Once per day items are bad enough...

Orca wrote:bracers of falcon's aim shouldn't break people's characters I think?

Bracers are 1/day 1 minute, standard use: I mean, if they at least nerfed it to divided up in 1 rd uses like Boosts of Speed: it might be decent still sucky, but decent.

At this point UMD and Wand of Falcon's aim is better for price. Sure, you'll need to boost skill bonus of UMD, but eh.

It is not just these item changes, it is the fact that this is a trend with Paizo. It started with monk flurry, to crane wing, then came to full flower from ACG "errata" onward. It seems like they are intent on removing any good options from all of there core line books.

Faye's favored is almost a sure bet to get the axe when they "errata" Ultimate Campaign, and who knows what else is next. Most of the "errata" have hurt Martials more than casters, the weapon cord nerf was aimed entirely at gunslingers dual wielding double barreled pistols. Oh and they nerfed double barreled fire arms too. After all God forbid any non-spell caster was good at anything even just doing HP damage.

The obvious question is - does Paizo actually know what a competently played caster can do?

As I remember, Jason Buhlman was hyping the 3.5 monk as a mobile caster killer.

Honestly I think the games played by the PDT are so far from even semi-optimized play that no I do not think so. I mean look at Mark Seifter defending the kinetisict as a solid class...

I would even say Mark is the most approachable of the PDT and seems the most in tune with the game.

I base this on the general thrust of errata and the general tone of all designer posts either official or unofficial.

Now some of the PDT may have a clue but the fact is that who/whomever is at the helm is vetoing sanity and making them all look like idiots. I used to love the idea of getting something published by Paizo, now I would still do it it just for the money and the exposure as the good feelings and respect are gone.

The other obvious question is, of course, how much of their fanbase is into semi-optimized play?

I mean an optimized Pathfinder wizard is going to launch dazing mega-damage nukes backed by templated skeletal horrors, mind controlled minions, and called demons, but is any of that shit on the standard Paizo fan's radar?

Do you guys have any tips for playing level 1-2 wizards against varied opposition in a dungeon environment which likely includes but is not limited to constructs, aberrations, mindless creatures, and if I'm really lucky, also the undead?

(Assume the party does not consist of someone that it would be worth casting enlarge person on.)

I'm guessing I have to get creative with silent image?

Also, looking at higher levels - is there a way to protect my summoned critters against area dispels, dismissal, banishment and similar effects? Most summons I've seen have terrible will saves...

Captain_Karzak wrote:Do you guys have any tips for playing level 1-2 wizards against varied opposition in a dungeon environment which likely includes but is not limited to constructs, aberrations, mindless creatures, and if I'm really lucky, also the undead?

(Assume the party does not consist of someone that it would be worth casting enlarge person on.)

I'm guessing I have to get creative with silent image?

Also, looking at higher levels - is there a way to protect my summoned critters against area dispels, dismissal, banishment and similar effects? Most summons I've seen have terrible will saves...

I can't speak to summons at high levels, but Color Spray works on like 99% of non mindless things, Silent Image should, if your DM isn't a cock, instantly end all fights against mindless opponents. If you aren't single handidly beating like... uh... well, darkmantles? that's okay, the other 3 people can do something. Don't think blindness protects against Color Spray, but see Greater Pathfinder DM Cockery Principle.

I mean, your DM is playing Pathfinder, so your DM is probably a cock. But that applies to everything. They could just as easily send only CR 1 mindful undead that they make up with racebuilder as soon as they figure out that you use Color Spray and Silent Image.

Kaelik wrote:

Captain_Karzak wrote:Do you guys have any tips for playing level 1-2 wizards against varied opposition in a dungeon environment which likely includes but is not limited to constructs, aberrations, mindless creatures, and if I'm really lucky, also the undead?

(Assume the party does not consist of someone that it would be worth casting enlarge person on.)

I'm guessing I have to get creative with silent image?

Also, looking at higher levels - is there a way to protect my summoned critters against area dispels, dismissal, banishment and similar effects? Most summons I've seen have terrible will saves...

I can't speak to summons at high levels, but Color Spray works on like 99% of non mindless things, Silent Image should, if your DM isn't a cock, instantly end all fights against mindless opponents. If you aren't single handidly beating like... uh... well, darkmantles? that's okay, the other 3 people can do something. Don't think blindness protects against Color Spray, but see Greater Pathfinder DM Cockery Principle.

I mean, your DM is playing Pathfinder, so your DM is probably a cock. But that applies to everything. They could just as easily send only CR 1 mindful undead that they make up with racebuilder as soon as they figure out that you use Color Spray and Silent Image.

Color Spray uses language that predates the [Pattern] tag. By the rules, it affects blind people in an area of magical darkness behind a curtain. That dissociated with the fiction, but it's been like that since the 3.0 PHB.

rasmuswagner wrote:Color Spray uses language that predates the [Pattern] tag. By the rules, it affects blind people in an area of magical darkness behind a curtain. That dissociated with the fiction, but it's been like that since the 3.0 PHB.

1) Like all non spreads (except I think specifically lightingbolt? or maybe all damaging spells), Color Spray can't effect anyone behind a curtain because you do not have line of effect.

2) The rules for patterns themselves specifically say "a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it."

Now, you don't know what means, and neither do I, and so we probably just default to the spell text. But there is a good reason to think that at least some patterns are supposed to effect people in the area even if they can't see it.

rasmuswagner wrote:

Kaelik wrote:I can't speak to summons at high levels, but Color Spray works on like 99% of non mindless things, Silent Image should, if your DM isn't a cock, instantly end all fights against mindless opponents. If you aren't single handidly beating like... uh... well, darkmantles? that's okay, the other 3 people can do something. Don't think blindness protects against Color Spray, but see Greater Pathfinder DM Cockery Principle.

I mean, your DM is playing Pathfinder, so your DM is probably a cock. But that applies to everything. They could just as easily send only CR 1 mindful undead that they make up with racebuilder as soon as they figure out that you use Color Spray and Silent Image.

Color Spray uses language that predates the [Pattern] tag. By the rules, it affects blind people in an area of magical darkness behind a curtain. That dissociated with the fiction, but it's been like that since the 3.0 PHB.

Since the 3.0, 3.5 & pathfinder versions of colour spray all include a line stating sightless creatures are unaffected by colour spray, I'd assume most DMs'll rule that blind people are immune.

Also, Darkmantles, Darkmantles everywhere!

Oh goddam. Pathfinder implemented in their unchained book(s?) some new wealth system.

Where, get this. All your flat bonuses scale with level, and don't come at the cost of item abilities!

Another brilliant Pathfinder exclusive idea that no one ever thought of before, like skill ranks equaling character levels, or non class skills lacking a single small bonus so they are always down 3 instead of being down between 2 and 10!

Pathfinder are geniuses of design and no one else could ever come up with these great ideas!

If you shoot enough, you'll hit something, I guess.

Kaelik wrote:Oh goddam. Pathfinder implemented in their unchained book(s?) some new wealth system.

Where, get this. All your flat bonuses scale with level, and don't come at the cost of item abilities!

Another brilliant Pathfinder exclusive idea that no one ever thought of before, like skill ranks equaling character levels, or non class skills lacking a single small bonus so they are always down 3 instead of being down between 2 and 10!

Pathfinder are geniuses of design and no one else could ever come up with these great ideas!

Except that if you look at this, the way it handles magic weapons screws people over. This is because special abilities come with a malus to your weapon's plusses. So, if you would have a +4 weapon because of this and you want it to be a keen, shocking weapon, you have to pay 8k for the privilege of a +2 keen, shocking weapon despite it having no greater value.

TiaC wrote:

Kaelik wrote:Oh goddam. Pathfinder implemented in their unchained book(s?) some new wealth system.

Where, get this. All your flat bonuses scale with level, and don't come at the cost of item abilities!

Another brilliant Pathfinder exclusive idea that no one ever thought of before, like skill ranks equaling character levels, or non class skills lacking a single small bonus so they are always down 3 instead of being down between 2 and 10!

Pathfinder are geniuses of design and no one else could ever come up with these great ideas!

Except that if you look at this, the way it handles magic weapons screws people over. This is because special abilities come with a malus to your weapon's plusses. So, if you would have a +4 weapon because of this and you want it to be a keen, shocking weapon, you have to pay 8k for the privilege of a +2 keen, shocking weapon despite it having no greater value.

In case you missed it, I think Pathfinder sucks, and when they luck into anything good at all, it's luck. That they shittily implemented a system based on the same concept that sane people have been using for a decade doesn't surprise me.

Although frankly, how was I supposed to know they wrote stupid weapon rules, that would require reading weapon rules like some kind of shitty fighter.

Oh, I know your opinion on Pathfinder, I was just marveling at their inability to competently plagiarize rules.

ishy wrote:Also, Darkmantles, Darkmantles everywhere!

What is this, World's Largest Dungeon?

IHIYC arghhhhhhh!!!! Sorry troll thread/poster got to me.