Why does 4th Edition have classes anyway?

[virgil]

Man, it's like watching a Jagermonster talk

[CatharzGodfoot]

Anything advertised as 'D&D' or as 'D&D but better' will cause PL's reaction if it does not let you do a very broad array of character types. .

PL always wants every system to be classless, no exceptions.

Classless systems have a lot going for them, and Shadowrun almost manages to have a classless system with normal classes. It works through a web of dependencies, and a 'concept build' or 'organic character' has a good chance of sucking if you ignore those dependencies. It still doesn't allow you to be a technomancer/adept/mage, which may or may not be a good thing.

At any rate, last time I checked TNE allowed 100 different character types, each with different possible builds based on different foci. That's not as many as you could get if you considered each possible multiclassing combination of the 10 core 3e classes to be a separate type, but at least each of the 100 would be viable.

Maybe Frank has moved away from that idea, but if that's the case he hasn't suggested any replacement that I know of.

In conclusion, german kezboards are weird.

Heh.

[NoDot]

The way TNE is currently entered in, it seems to be soft classes (five colors) which have a number of pre-built builds for the newb. Party face, Ritual guy, Sneak, etc. all seem to be selectable unlinked to the colors.

[JonSetanta]

german keyboard stuff.

all i could see was that in every relevant area that a "Y" should have appeared there was a "Z." It's amusing that the german keyboard is really only that different.

I can't even read that. My mind attempts to autocorrect but it's not working.



For TNE I vote classless-with-templates as usual. It doesn't have to be a jumbled grab bag mess.
One may choose any variety of combinations for powers, but if one wants a predefined archetype they can grab a template that lays out most powers in unified theme.
A classless with 'classes'.

[MartinHarper]

Class systems are good at preserving people's uniqueness. If the White Mage can't learn Black Magic, then the Black Mage need not live in fear that she's going to walk in one day with his signature spell and put him out of a job. If you want to keep the class system, you want to increase the differentiation between the classes. Full stop.

It doesn't have to be that black and white (ho ho). You can allow the White Mage to learn Black Magic, provided that:
1) she's bad at it, so she doesn't stomp over the Black Mage's role.
2) it doesn't make her suck at White Magic, so someone else stomps over her role.

[CatharzGodfoot]

It doesn't have to be that black and white (ho ho). You can allow the White Mage to learn Black Magic, provided that:
1) she's bad at it, so she doesn't stomp over the Black Mage's role.
2) it doesn't make her suck at White Magic, so someone else stomps over her role.

In that case, every black mage knows white magic and vice-versa. So really, those aren't black magic abilities or white magic abilities; they're gray magic that everyone gets.

If you add in red and blue magic as well, you have more gray magic or else you have players wanting to have black magic and a little white magic and a bit of red magic.

And then every character has to choose the one type of magic she isn't good at, and the one type she's really good at, and everyone is happy because there are 12 somewhat distinct roles. Until someone comes along and says, "I won't play unless I'm good at blue magic too".

[Manxome]

If the white mage can learn a little black magic, then:

1) She has to give up something to get it, otherwise every white mage might as well do it. What is she going to give up that won't compromise her role as white mage?

2) The black magic has to be worth something, or it won't be worth giving anything up for. What black magic is going to be seriously worth having if it doesn't let you perform the black mage's job?


Those problems aren't unsolvable, but I don't think any of the easy solutions give you what you want:

A) The thing you give up and the thing you get both have negligible tactical value. Basically, flavor-only.

B) There's an overlapping area of "gray magic" that both white mage and black mage can get, because it isn't actually part of the protected role of either one. That's protected roles plus a common pool of things that everyone can do (e.g. walking, talking, swimming, etc.).

C) The "black mage" role actually contains several tasks (say, blasting, summoning, and enchanting), and the white mage gets level-appropriate abilities, but only from one area--so you basically end up with, say, 2 things that only white mages can do, 2 that only black mages can do, and 1 they can both do (but any individual may or may not actually do it). This is like the overlapping protected roles from Frank's Fantastic! notes.

D) You treat every possible area of overlap as a special case and carefully craft every rule and ability to make sure that any secondary schtick you can pick up gives you something useful without letting you usurp anyone else's role, not because there's any general formula for how this works, but because the stars happen to align just right. Every time. This takes a bunch of work and makes your system brittle.


If I've missed any, feel free to chime in...

[K]

Since Frank and I don't agree much on classes right now, I'm hoping that by writing it out I can convince him of the merits.

How's this sound to everyone else?

1. A Class is a fixed set of abilities, of which a character will tend to get about half the possible choices off his list as he levels up(so two Fighters might not have any overlap at all).

I see each class doing like one unique thing and two rather universal things. Unique things would be things like Necromancy, or combat illusions and universal would be things like blasting.

Tactically, all classes will be able to do the same things, but in a different way. For example, figher Control would be a series of fients that confuse and misdirect an opponent, but Red Mage Control is all illusions.

2. Multiclassing involves dividing half your stuff between two classes. So if you have ten choosable abilities for your level, as a multiclass guys you have five Class A and five Class B abilities (and you have the same numers of each power level, so it's not like you early stuff is all figher stuff and your later is all magic).

3. You get four feat-like things. You use these to get single abilities off any list.

So you can be a Black Mage/White Mage who has a little Blue and Red and you might have five Black, five White, and four Red/Blue, but the dedicated Black Mage can have 14 Black.

I was also thinking of "counter synergy." So Black magic might require a bone weapon to use, but White magic requires that you don't touch dead things. This means that you lose actions if you switch between the two in battle.

[JonSetanta]

You're doing it wrong.

If either Black or White Mage learns each other's spells they are Red Mage.

Not the Ice9-slinging rules-tweaking Red Mage from 8bit Theatre but the actual Bard-like sucktastic one from many FF releases.

[K]

You're doing it wrong.

If either Black or White Mage learns each other's spells they are Red Mage.

Not the Ice9-slinging rules-tweaking Red Mage from 8bit Theatre but the actual Bard-like sucktastic one from many FF releases.

In FF XI, Red magic has it's own list separate from White or Black.

Eight Bit Theatre is FF III, which is a degenerate version of the setting.

But these are just examples. I don't intend to copy any FF stuff.

[Manxome]

K: Under your model, how many different classes can you multiclass?

Because if being a single-class X means that you can pick any ten X abilities and being a multi-class X/Y means that you can pick ten total abilities off of the X and Y lists, then it seems like everyone might as well multiclass as many things as possible, to maximize their selection while keeping their total number of abilities the same.

If there's no limit to the number of classes, then you've effectively got a classless system.

Now, you could pick some arbitrary numerical limit to the number of classes you can grab, but if you do that, you should probably just assume that all PCs will have the maximum number.

If you set the number to 1, then you've got very strong role protection and no multi-classing.

If you set the number to 2, then you've got something like Guild Wars: everyone is expected to take 2 classes (you technically can choose to take only one, but that's strictly inferior, so no one does it), and you've got a limited number of ability slots you can fill with any maneuvers from either class. It's a bit more complicated than that (for example, one class is "primary" and gives you a few special perks), but that's the basic idea.

And personally, I'm quite fond of the Guild Wars system (except for a few details)--you can do some really intriguing combos, but you can't do everything, and the classes have strong identities that really matter. And their "primary class" mechanics are set up so that a Monk/Elementalist really does play significantly differently from an Elementalist/Monk, even though they've got basically the same bag of tricks.

I can't presently think of any games that use this kind of system but set the class limit to 3 or higher. I suppose you could, but the game's going to be more complicated to design and play the higher you set it, and character differentiation is going to drop as the number of classes you can take approaches the number of meaningfully different classes in the game.



Also, personally, I think I'd set the number of feat-like things that can be spent on arbitrary cross-class abilities to some really small number, maybe 0-2. Though having a pool of common abilities that no one gets as a class feature but that everyone can get with feats sounds fine.

[MartinHarper]

If I've missed any, feel free to chime in...

I was thinking in A-ish terms. The black mage with a bit of white magic can't raise the dead, but can cure the common cold. He has level 5 white magic compared to his level 10 black magic. If you strip the black mage of his bone weapon, you'll definitely reduce his power, but he might be able to fall back on his white magic to survive or escape.

I was also thinking of "counter synergy." So Black magic might require a bone weapon to use, but White magic requires that you don't touch dead things. This means that you lose actions if you switch between the two in battle.

I don't see how that would work with, for example, five classes. You can have specific counter-synergies for class-combinations that would otherwise be overpowered, but I don't see how you can make ever combination have a counter-synergy. If I play a Sword Guy/Black Mage, and I wield a bone sword, where's the counter synergy? What about a Sword Guy/White Mage?

[K]

K: Under your model, how many different classes can you multiclass?

Because if being a single-class X means that you can pick any ten X abilities and being a multi-class X/Y means that you can pick ten total abilities off of the X and Y lists, then it seems like everyone might as well multiclass as many things as possible, to maximize their selection while keeping their total number of abilities the same.

If there's no limit to the number of classes, then you've effectively got a classless system.

One extra class. I don't think there is a decent concept that needs more than two classes and a few choosable abilities.

[Manxome]

One extra class. I don't think there is a decent concept that needs more than two classes and a few choosable abilities.

OK, so we expect all PCs to have 2 classes each?

Is one of them special/primary or do you just plain pick two classes?

I was thinking in A-ish terms. The black mage with a bit of white magic can't raise the dead, but can cure the common cold. He has level 5 white magic compared to his level 10 black magic. If you strip the black mage of his bone weapon, you'll definitely reduce his power, but he might be able to fall back on his white magic to survive or escape.

Having a secondary tactic to fall back on if you get disarmed doesn't sound like a negligible benefit to me. What does the black mage who doesn't pick up a secondary schtick get instead? Or are you expecting 100% of PCs to multiclass?

[K]

One extra class. I don't think there is a decent concept that needs more than two classes and a few choosable abilities.

OK, so we expect all PCs to have 2 classes each?

Is one of them special/primary or do you just plain pick two classes?

I doubt that multiclassing will be the default. I mean, if you can tactically do the same things as a White Mage, why muddle your Black Mage concept at all?

[CatharzGodfoot]

I was also thinking of "counter synergy." So Black magic might require a bone weapon to use, but White magic requires that you don't touch dead things. This means that you lose actions if you switch between the two in battle.

The idea here being that the action cost will precisely balance the advantage of switching to a different class ability set, the limitations on the ability set, and the advantage of choosing which one you begin with?

I doubt that multiclassing will be the default. I mean, if you can tactically do the same things as a White Mage, why muddle your Black Mage concept at all?

You mean, 'why not be lazy and use the preselected Black abilities rather than working to combine abilities from two lists'?

From the nonscientific perspective of a player, I've found that with around 12 completely separate ability sets, the 'sweet spot' for fun is two or three. The guy who shoots fire and controls undead isn't a muddled concept, and neither is the guy who wears heavy armor, swings a sword around, and control undead. The telepath who shapeshifts, the telepath who controls light and shadow, and the shapeshifter who controls light and shadow aren't muddled concepts either. The last one is a little odd, but it is clear.

That does bring up another good point, I think, which is that in some settings certain clear combinations are undesirable or 'too strange'. In one setting, for example, the undead shapeshifter or shapechanging armored tank may not be wanted. In that you can come up with a solution like TNE (arbitrary grouping that, at minimum, disallow all undesirable concepts), or you can come up with some thing like the stupid 'opposing elements', whereby you learn that Heavy cavalry and Shapeshifting are on opposite sides (and then you bitch to the DM because you have this great idea for a shapeshifting heavy cavalrywoman, and she gives in and lets you break the rules).

[Manxome]

I doubt that multiclassing will be the default. I mean, if you can tactically do the same things as a White Mage, why muddle your Black Mage concept at all?

Because picking abilities from two lists is objectively superior to picking the same number of abilities from only one of those two lists?

I mean, sure, there will be some situations where everything you want happens to all be on a single list. But statistically (and empirically, based on Guild Wars), that's probably very rare. Heck, Guild Wars has an attribute system that provides straight-up numerical advantages to choosing your abilities from a small number of categories, and only lets you equip 8 abilities grand total, and it's still rare to see a build that doesn't utilize abilities from the secondary class.

And even in situations where you only plan on using powers from one list, you might as well declare a second class just in case you ever want an ability from it. Unless being single-classed gives you some advantage.

Now, that's not necessarily bad. Everyone in Guild Wars has two classes and they get along just fine. But if you've got a system where there is no drawback to multiclassing, you should probably structure the game on the assumption that every PC will always have the maximum number of classes.

[PhoneLobster]

Wow there have been a few stupid assumptions floating around since I posted on here.

Notably this...

In that case, every black mage knows white magic and vice-versa. So really, those aren't black magic abilities or white magic abilities; they're gray magic that everyone gets.

... is frankly a stupid lie.

Because this...

Because picking abilities from two lists is objectively superior to picking the same number of abilities from only one of those two lists?

... is a whopping gigantic false assumption.

Really the "If anyone can both sword AND hammer then EVERYONE WILL" is fucking stupid.

If you haven't got enough level appropriate abilities within sword school and hammer school independently of each other then you have major systematic problems.

So if Hammer can't compete with Sword and Hammer, and indeed if Sword and Hammer is so good it really does beat EVERYTHING including Fire and Ice etc... then you seriously got bigger fish to fry than a teeny little bit of role protection defiance.

PL always wants every system to be classless, no exceptions.

Though I have no special affection for class based systems I'm fairly sure I've never expressed such a desire around these parts. Or if I did it was several years ago under another name when I was young and reckless (though even then...).

Heck my latest homebrew projects have been rather class based to varying degrees. That had its ups and downs.

K presents a very workable and nice alternative that is still moderately a class based system. Importantly it allows significant choice in character design to the PLAYER and the GM rather than to just the game designer.

Maybe Frank has moved away from that idea, but if that's the case he hasn't suggested any replacement that I know of.

Damned if I know if his talk matches his walk.

But his talk is very much "rogues get stealth, warriors get swords, fire mages get fire, never shall the three mix, or else the sky shall fall".

If that matches his walk then this is a problem. If that DOESN'T match his walk then odds are there will be other problems.

And all in the talk alone is well worth mercilessly attacking.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Wow there have been a few stupid assumptions floating around since I posted on here.

Notably this...

In that case, every black mage knows white magic and vice-versa. So really, those aren't black magic abilities or white magic abilities; they're gray magic that everyone gets.

... is frankly a stupid lie.

Because this...

Because picking abilities from two lists is objectively superior to picking the same number of abilities from only one of those two lists?

... is a whopping gigantic false assumption.

Really the "If anyone can both sword AND hammer then EVERYONE WILL" is fucking stupid.

If you haven't got enough level appropriate abilities within sword school and hammer school independently of each other then you have major systematic problems.

So if Hammer can't compete with Sword and Hammer, and indeed if Sword and Hammer is so good it really does beat EVERYTHING including Fire and Ice etc... then you seriously got bigger fish to fry than a teeny little bit of role protection defiance.

But what PhoneLobster didn't realize is that one of MartinHarper's base assumptions was that getting the abilities of a second role doesn't reduce your capabilities in your first role.

So your Hammer faces two options: Get the abilities of a Hammer, or get the abilities of a hammer and some of the abilities of a sword. Do you want ice cream or ice cream with a cherry on top? If you're a desert min/maxer, you take the free cherry.

[virgil]

Really the "If anyone can both sword AND hammer then EVERYONE WILL" is fucking stupid.

If you haven't got enough level appropriate abilities within sword school and hammer school independently of each other then you have major systematic problems.

Either that, or you can consider the concept of synergy, which WILL happen if you allow hammer and sword school to inbreed; unless you go out of your way to consider any hammer ability when combined with any other weapon to prevent an effect outside the intended power realm.

And once you start balancing from the intermingling of all schools, then you might as well have a classless system now.

[K]

OK, here is an example of what I'm talking about:

For the sake of argument, let's say that all combat can be broken down into tactical niches of Area Damage, Single Target Chicanery, and Control.

Now a Black Mage might get three things he does. He does Evocation, Transmutation, and Conjuration. These map to tactical niches, so Area is Evocation (fireballs lightning bolts and the like), Single is Transmutation(turning people to stone or into animals), and Control is Conjuration(conjuring walls and webs and short term magical beast summons). He is the only class in the game that gets Evocation(lightning) and Transmutation(Polymorph Other), and both are awesome in their own ways.

Now take White Mage. He gets Evocation, Divine, and Conjuration. These map like this: Evocation(fireballs and light) is Area, Divine is Single(mind control), and Conjuration is Control(walls and summoned angels). Your special tricks are angels and light, and both are iconic and awesome in their own way.

Now, you are 10th level and have 10 combat powers. We assume that if you choose one class, you can spread yourself between Control, Area, and Single and because of the way things are spread out you have at least two powers from each area and at most five of one.

Now, you could multiclass and are forced to have five powers of each class and they have to alternate(one class, then another).

This means you could cherry pick the light spells and the lightning spells, but it would mean you would be very Area focused and less Control and Single focused. You might be a versatile Evoker, but even if you cherry picked the angel summoning and the Polymorph othering, you'd never have the mind control Single spells or the Wall Control spells that a dedicated White Mage or Black Mage could have.

I think it might be easier on role protection if people could just take two specials of the four available to a multlclass, or if the price of multiclassing was only two feat-like things instead of four. Since the feat-like things are powers can be of any level of powers you can use, fewer of them is a real sacrifice.

I have to think about it some more.



.

[Manxome]

Now, you could multiclass and are forced to have five powers of each class and they have to alternate(one class, then another).

Ah. I missed the part where you have to split the abilities exactly 50/50.

That would seem to make it merely highly probable that you're better off taking two classes, rather than mathematically certain.

Wow there have been a few stupid assumptions floating around since I posted on here.

Notably this...

In that case, every black mage knows white magic and vice-versa. So really, those aren't black magic abilities or white magic abilities; they're gray magic that everyone gets.

... is frankly a stupid lie.

Because this...

Because picking abilities from two lists is objectively superior to picking the same number of abilities from only one of those two lists?

... is a whopping gigantic false assumption.

Really the "If anyone can both sword AND hammer then EVERYONE WILL" is fucking stupid.

If you haven't got enough level appropriate abilities within sword school and hammer school independently of each other then you have major systematic problems.

So if Hammer can't compete with Sword and Hammer, and indeed if Sword and Hammer is so good it really does beat EVERYTHING including Fire and Ice etc... then you seriously got bigger fish to fry than a teeny little bit of role protection defiance.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you were thinking of the system that K described and not the slightly different version I was actually talking about.

If you are given these two choices for your character:
1) Cherry-pick any ten abilities from list A
2) Cherry-pick any ten abilities from the union of list A and list B

Then option 2 cannot possibly be worse than option 1, because it can duplicate every single thing that option 1 can do. And option 2 is going to be materially better in...well, essentially any system that isn't totally insane. Most games are going to want to assign iconic strengths and/or weaknesses to each class, and that means cherry-picking abilities from two lists is awfully likely to result in covering your bases much better than picking from only one. Even if the distribution of abilities were totally random, the total number of permutations offered by option 2 is over 2^10 times the permutations of option 1. That's an incredible number of chances to get lucky.

Your points that each class should individually have enough abilities or that even a two-class combo shouldn't be able to do everything are just plumb irrelevant. Yes, there will be reasons not to select any particular two-class combo you care to name, so in addition to A/B characters, you'll also get A/C, B/C, A/D, etc. But choosing two classes is still objectively superior to choosing one.

But if you don't accept math and sound reasoning, you can seriously just go look at Guild Wars for a case study. Every class in the game has hundreds of abilities of which you can choose to use eight. For each class, you can construct dozens of completely viable builds (probably more) using only abilities from that class, and the game actually has flat-out numerical penalties that disincentivize diversification in your selection of abilities.

And yet, essentially ALL player characters have two classes, and the vast majority of them use abilities from both of their classes--because you might as well have a second class (it costs you nothing), and the vast majority of viable builds are multiclass builds (partly because there are a fvck ton more multiclass builds than single-class builds, partly because of synergies that you must have in order for the classes to be different in the first place).


Now, there is some cost to multiclassing if that prescribes the exact fraction of your abilities that you must devote to each class. That will create some builds that are single-class-only, and thus you will probably get some actual single-classed PCs.

BUT...a multi-class PC is still able to produce a wider variety of effects because that follows directly from the explicit design goals (where each class is good at different stuff), and there are still an awful lot more multiclass builds than single-class builds, so unless you take some rather extreme measures, I'd say odds are still amazingly good that multiclass builds will comprise the majority of good builds and will be over-represented in the top-tier, game-breaking builds.

[PhoneLobster]

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you were thinking of the system that K described and not the slightly different version I was actually talking about.

This puzzles me, among other things because the next bit is not actually an accurate description of K's suggestions at all.

But suffice it to say that as with K's system I assume that when selecting an option you are expending a limited resource of available options and selecting off two lists doesn't magically let you ignore the whole level appropriate selection limitations of the level system.

Which I'm going to assume is the assumption you weren't making, though what kind of universe you were living in if you thought that was the model I have no idea.

If you are given these two choices for your character:
1) Cherry-pick any ten abilities from list A
2) Cherry-pick any ten abilities from the union of list A and list B

Then option 2 cannot possibly be worse than option 1, because it can duplicate every single thing that option 1 can do. And option 2 is going to be materially better in...well, essentially any system that isn't totally insane.

Just flat out no. The only thing it needs to be is materially the same.

For option two to be better there MUST be powers in list A that are actually functionally crap compared to available powers OF THE SAME LEVEL in list B.

And we simply cannot allow that anyway because that is stupid arse game design

Most games are going to want to assign iconic strengths and/or weaknesses to each class, and that means cherry-picking abilities from two lists is awfully likely to result in covering your bases much better than picking from only one.

Now under this assumption your argument MIGHT be true. But there remain some vast assumptions in your position.

Firstly you assume a poorly designed strength weakness system full of holes that can be exploited. There is no reason why being a Fire wizard AND and Ice witch should make you immune to Fire AND Cold instead of vulnerable to Fire AND Cold, or indeed neither of the above.

Also you assume that a fixed iconic strength and weakness system is present at all. And I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that such a system is NOT a good thing.

Ever since I played some of the earlier RTS games that decided to implement Rock Paper Scissors with Cavalry Infantry Archers I have been rather unimpressed with the idea.

You could walk into a battle with a good mixed force and one way or another the essentially random match ups are pretty much meaningless.

OR you could charge in with an all Cavalry force and ultimately break even on all match ups and in all other ways be superior.

I've played several Cavalry Infantry Archer RPS implementations now and they are ALL like that.

And frankly Pokemon enforces my dislike of such a system being applied to any kind of complex RPG. It's OK for Bulbasaur to sit out an entire adventure unconcsious while Charmander brutally murders all the pokemon of the insect dungeon when they are just a pair of tools in a players kit. When Bulbasaur is infact a players one and only character that is just sad, in fact its utterly depressing even within a single combat.

Now if that doesn't satisfy you I'll post something criticising Frank's superhero defence/offence diagram from the pretty pictures thread.

In detail.

Even if the distribution of abilities were totally random, the total number of permutations offered by option 2 is over 2^10 times the permutations of option 1. That's an incredible number of chances to get lucky.

Your points that each class should individually have enough abilities or that even a two-class combo shouldn't be able to do everything are just plumb irrelevant. Yes, there will be reasons not to select any particular two-class combo you care to name, so in addition to A/B characters, you'll also get A/C, B/C, A/D, etc. But choosing two classes is still objectively superior to choosing one.

I don't accept any math or reasoning where a key element in the equation is "get lucky".

And that's where you fall down. You rely on getting lucky by picking MORE options that are individually objectively better than those available to a character selecting from a different list. Picking from a single list has to somehow force you to select from at least some sub par abilities.

If we actually use your underlying reasoning complete with its flawed "Get Lucky" clause then we REALLY DO have the Hammer/Sword guy (or even JUST the Hammer Only Guy) be the thing EVERYONE takes because if the system contains abilities that genuinely are objectively better than other options then there really is ONE selection (or two part selection) better than all the others.

For ALL the two part selections to be better than ALL the one part selections you'd actively have to design for it, and in the process NOT "get lucky".

And if we are relying on not getting lucky (ie eliminating bad ability options) then it's a no brainer to have single and multi list selections be equal.

[JonSetanta]

In FF XI, Red magic has it's own list separate from White or Black.

Ahhh yes. That.
The online one, natch.

I personally don't hold that... canon.

Regardless, the FF reference was just in response to the crap slung around here that roles must be protected.
They can be crossed and mixed but the Red Mage bastard child will be the result. Not specifically in FF spell selection but in the fact that they are healing and blasting... but not very well in either role since they lack focus.

Ideally it should both possible and non-punishing to dabble like that.

[RandomCasualty2]

I always liked the magic the gathering model for multicolor decks, where there were some cards that required lots of one mana type, like 3 or 4 black mana, and those cards sucked in a multicolor deck, while some required 1 colored mana and a bunch of colorless.

I think multiclassing should look a lot like that. Where you have some master level abilities that only single classed people can take, and you've got a variety of stuff that is easy to access for a multiclasser.