What have you learned lately?

[Ganbare Gincun]

I learned last night that some people are willing to ruin both Halloween parties and good friendships by starting fights about health care reform.

I could see that. I mean, lack of Health Insurance seriously kills 123 Americans a day. I could seriously see how that would cause people to panic and act irrationally. You know, how it's kind of like having 9/11 happen every month. Every year. Forever.

-Username17

You misunderstand me. These people were arguing AGAINST health care reform - and this despite the fact that one of them would personally and immensely benefit from HCR. And let me tell you, there's nothing better then going to a party to try and relax after a long week of work only to discover that you've basically stepped onto a Fox News soundstage.

Never underestimate the power of the Wingularity, I suppose.

[Koumei]

If you killed them, then by the time people figured out it wasn't a Halloween joke and called the police, you could be long-gone.

Just saying.

[tzor]

I just found out how completely out of touch the American people are and always have been with the deficit.

Those numbers are not good.

Wait a moment, are you talking about the Clinton years here? Not to sound too negative but Republicans were, at the time, more concerned about other things and mostly had their you know what up their you know were on a lot of issues. Given this, the collective amnesia exists even today among most rank and file voters.

Never the less, in hindsight, and when one attempts to remove partisan blinders from ones vision, most conservatives will give a passing nod to President Clinton in terms of keeping the budget in good working order and bad marks to both of the Bush's (HW and W) in terms of fiscal responsibility and acceptance of failed Keynesian economics.

[Crissa]

Except, tzor, that is evidence most Republicans (who were Republicans in 1996) don't give a passing nod to Clinton for reducing the deficit.

As long as elected officials are allowed to go around stating things as fact which are not, this is going to be a serious problem.

Things like: One year of the war in Iraq cost more than ten years of the proposed Health Care bills. And yet, Republicans support one and want to cut the other to 'cut the deficit'.

Removing the estate tax costs more in one year than ten years of the Health Care bills. And yet... blahblahblah.

The majority of this years' deficit was assigned by W Bush. Republicans also don't believe this. The majority of the debt was placed during W Bush's term. Republicans also don't believe this.

How are we to operate a country when Republicans spend trillions of dollars to kill brown people and line their pocket then nickel and dime us when we try to shift costs around to help the American people?

Republicans won't even admit that they've filibustered more bills in the last year than Democrats did in the previous six.

-Crissa

[tzor]

If you want I can go point/counter point

Except, tzor, that is evidence most Republicans (who were Republicans in 1996) don't give a passing nod to Clinton for reducing the deficit.

I’ll tell you what, you line up the “most Republicans” you know and I will line up the “most Republicans” I know.

Things like: One year of the war in Iraq cost more than ten years of the proposed Health Care bills. And yet, Republicans support one and want to cut the other to 'cut the deficit'.

The war in Iraq will not last forever. Once you create an entitlement, on the other hand … More over you are using actual (known costs of the war in Iraq) with projected (historically most budget projections have been well short of the actual; just look at the original projections for Medicare costs and what actual Medicare costs were for the program).

Removing the estate tax costs more in one year than ten years of the Health Care bills. And yet... blahblahblah.

Sorry Crissa, but living in the heart of small family farms I know exactly why the estate tax is evil. I’m just lucky the wine growing industry came along and saved Long Island when it did, but what happens when the next generation wants to take over the vineyards?

Hell no, estate tax has got to go.

The majority of this years' deficit was assigned by W Bush. Republicans also don't believe this. The majority of the debt was placed during W Bush's term. Republicans also don't believe this.

I’d love to see some “evidence” to back up this claim. Everything I have read (and this is from financial news sources, not the GOP, has indicated that Obama doubled down in one year on the Bush deficit with the stimulus (the porkulus package) the take over of GM and Chrysler, the Cash for Clunkers program, and so on and so forth, and that’s before his gateway drug to the single payer health program.

How are we to operate a country when Republicans spend trillions of dollars to kill brown people and line their pocket then nickel and dime us when we try to shift costs around to help the American people?

“Kill brown people.” Is this where you start to wonder why I am laughing maniacally for ten minutes straight? Republicans are fucking rank amateurs. Democrats are fueled by African American killers, descendents of those who designed the vile science of eugenics which was only used openly by the Nazis. I suppose this does require a link.

Abortion Kills More Black Americans Than the Seven Leading Causes of Death Combined, Says CDC Data

“Abortion killed at least 203,991 blacks in the 36 states and two cities (New York City and the District of Columbia) that reported abortions by race in 2005, according to the CDC. During that same year, according to the CDC, a total of 198,385 blacks nationwide died from heart disease, cancer, strokes, accidents, diabetes, homicide, and chronic lower respiratory diseases combined.”

See also Abortion and Women of Color: The Bigger Picture.

“The abortion rates among women in minority communities have followed the overall downward trend over the three decades of legal abortion. At the same time, however, black women consistently have had the highest abortion rates, followed by Hispanic women (see chart). This holds true even when controlling for income: At every income level, black women have higher abortion rates than whites or Hispanics, except for women below the poverty line, where Hispanic women have slightly higher rates than black women.”

Republicans won't even admit that they've filibustered more bills in the last year than Democrats did in the previous six.

That is a stupid statistic. I mean seriously what the fuck does it mean? You know the numbers in advance, you know if you have closure or not. If you don’t you have two choices. The Democratic way is to bring it up anyway to get “filibuster” points. The Republican way is not to bring it up at all. Democrats can’t filibuster what isn’t brought up in the first place because there isn’t enough votes for closure. You are not counting the virtual filibusters of bills that are simply not brought to the floor because there is not enough closure votes.

[violence in the media]

Sorry Tzor, I reject your statistics on the grounds that fetuses aren't people.

[Username17]

I’ll tell you what, you line up the “most Republicans” you know and I will line up the “most Republicans” I know.

No. We're going to go with the simple majority of Republican voters who in 1996 when asked if they thought the deficit had increased or decreased in the last four years and by how much answered that they thought the first four years of Clinton had increased the deficit when in fact it had done very much the opposite.

Most, that is more than half, of self-identifying Republicans do not grant Clinton props for fiscal responsibility and do rant about how he was spending our nation into poverty. Which from an objective standpoint, is not what happened. What republicans you know is anecdotal and meaningless. Poling data shows that most republicans are in fact dead wrong on budgetary issues.

If you asked republicans as a group what to do with the fiscal future of the United States and then did exactly the opposite, you'd do better than flipping coins. Statistically and demonstrably.

-Username17

[Crissa]

I’ll tell you what, you line up the “most Republicans” you know and I will line up the “most Republicans” I know.

What republicans you know is anecdotal and meaningless.

Emphasis mine.

I'm confused as to why most of tzor's post is about Republic nutpicking and bigotry against Black people. Not listed in his statistics is the overwhelming number of infants born out of wedlock, and teen age pregnancies; as well as the fact that the statistics he is pointing at include spontaneous as well as medically necessary abortions, which are the largest and smallest portions, in that order. Voluntary abortion is statistically meaningless compared to the number of infants born in the US. And who else but bigots would believe that Black people ought not be given the choice of when to raise children?

-Crissa

PS: The cost of the Iraq war would pay for (the 'entitlement' of shifting costs around so that we were paying for medicine before it is needed instead of after; note that we already pay for this medicine) ten years of the Health Care Subsidy for every year it has been run.

We are currently in two such wars. So in eight years of one, and six years of another, we could have paid for one hundred and forty years of the health care subsidy and save over twenty three million lives, not counting infant mortality reductions and destruction of contagious diseases.

[shadzar]

Clinton got a blow job AND got money from it? What a whore!

I just learned Clinton lowered the deficit. But to be honest after Reagan was in office, I just gave up paying attention cause I knew we were screwed.

[Maj]

I learned that Clinton commited fraud on his taxes because he overstated his charitible deduction for donating his undies to the Salvation Army. Instead of a value of $1 each, as he claimed, they were supposed to go for 6 cents per pound.

[Cynic]

I learned that Clinton commited fraud on his taxes because he overstated his charitible deduction for donating his undies to the Salvation Army. Instead of a value of $1 each, as he claimed, they were supposed to go for 6 cents per pound.

all i can say is what the fvck?

I mean who donates their undies? I didn't even know Salvation Army accepts undergarments...

Man for Macguyver, he is one fvcked up person.

[shadzar]

I was about to ask why he would have underwear by the pound, but then remembered who he was.

And yeah, used underwear? NO! throw that shit away to make into blacktop for the roads or a parking lot. Buy people new underwear for fucks sake! :barf:

Bill Cosby comes to mind. Where his mother asked if he was wearing clean underwear when he was in an accident (car).

I could see the person get's Bill's old undies answering it now.

Mother: Son were you wearing clean underwear?
Son: No they wear Clinton's old ones.
Mother:

[RobbyPants]

Things like: One year of the war in Iraq cost more than ten years of the proposed Health Care bills. And yet, Republicans support one and want to cut the other to 'cut the deficit'.

The war in Iraq will not last forever. Once you create an entitlement, on the other hand … More over you are using actual (known costs of the war in Iraq) with projected (historically most budget projections have been well short of the actual; just look at the original projections for Medicare costs and what actual Medicare costs were for the program).

Except that war will eventually be replaced by a new war, and that war by another war, etc...

[Crissa]

Used underwear is still useful for the fiber it contains, hence being bought by the pound. Perhaps Clinton was given a receipt indicating they were going to use the underwear as a different type of recycling, for its collectibility: He famously answered a question on Mtv about the type of underwear he wore.

Also, "According to a new report, “nearly half of all U.S. children and 90 percent of black youngsters will be on food stamps at some point during childhood.” Puts a new light on tzor's rant, doesn't it?

-Crissa

[shadzar]

Where are all those fucks yelling "waht about the children" with so many of them going hungry? Oh right, they only said it to be part of the in-crowd, and get popularity points...they never really cared about the children.

I never met a child during school that wasn't on food stamps or their equivalent.

[tzor]

Sorry Tzor, I reject your statistics on the grounds that fetuses aren't people.

Somehow I am reminded of the old dialogue in the musical 1776 where the two went back and forth between "people" and "property."

Rutledge:
Oh, really! Mr. Adams in now callin’ our black slaves Americans. Are-they-now?

John:
They are! They’re people and they’re here—if there is any other requirement, I’ve never heard of it.

Rutledge:
They are here, yes, but they are not people, sir, they are property.

Jefferson:
No, sir! They are people who are being treated as property. I tell you the rights of human nature are deeply wounded by this infamous practice!

Rutledge:
Then see to your own wounds, Mr. Jefferson, for you are a—practitioner, are you not?

Jefferson:
I have already resolved to release my slaves.

Rutledge:
Then I’m sorry, for you have also resolved the ruination of your personal economy.

John:
Economy. Always economy. There’s more to this than a filthy purse-string, Rutledge. It’s an offense against man and God.

Yes, VitM, they are PEOPLE, created equal with inaienable rights. There is more to this than the filthy purse strings of the Planned Parenthood abortion mills.

[tzor]

Voluntary abortion is statistically meaningless compared to the number of infants born in the US.

Screw the acronym, seriously what the fuck! If you bothered to read the articles I cited you would have noticed the following: The report states, “Approximately 1 in 5 U.S. pregnancies have ended in abortion,” and also notes some limitations on the data: “The overall number, ratio, and rate of abortions are conservative estimates; the total numbers of legal induced abortions provided by central health agencies and reported to the CDC for 2005 were probably lower than the numbers actually performed.”

How the fuck is one in five “statistically meaningless?” Seriously how the fuck can you say that? This is especially true when you have major organizations deliberately trying to hide factual data because if people really knew the scope of the magnitude of legal abortions in the United States there would be riots in the streets!

One in five, Crissa!

[tzor]

Also, According to a new report, “nearly half of all U.S. children and 90 percent of black youngsters will be on food stamps at some point during childhood.” Puts a new light on tzor's rant, doesn't it?

Oh great, an Ebenezer Scrooge argument, “better for them to die and reduce the surplus population?” Fucking bullshit.

[Crissa]

Also, According to a new report, “nearly half of all U.S. children and 90 percent of black youngsters will be on food stamps at some point during childhood.” Puts a new light on tzor's rant, doesn't it?

Oh great, an Ebenezer Scrooge argument, “better for them to die and reduce the surplus population?” Fucking bullshit.

...So you don't believe black women should be able to choose when to sacrifice their lives to children?

Note, this is with abortion being legal, but unavailable, and yet, used frequently. How many more hungry, unfed and uncared for children would you have? How many more women would you have die?

And how many of your party - not that you know, out the total - support S-CHIP, food stamps, welfare and government student loans?

Face it, as long as you support your party, your arguments are meaningless bigotry designed to force people into despair, hunger, ignorance, and death.

-Crissa

[shadzar]

I have learned most people I meet everywhere today have no idea how to focus, and have learned ADD(ADHD), hypertension, or something else that prevents them from being able to do one thing at a time, because of the lack of focus due to trying to win the "rat race" or multi-tasking when it isn't required.

Excuse me for a bit as I am currently watching TV, painting a miniature, and cooking dinner.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

The report states, “Approximately 1 in 5 U.S. pregnancies have ended in abortion,”

Yeah, that's stupid. Really really stupid. As in you're smart enough to know that's a lie when you read it. As in you, Tzor, are educated enough to know that's the most retarded claim anyone has ever made in the history of the universe.

[Crissa]

The report states, “Approximately 1 in 5 U.S. pregnancies have ended in abortion,”

Yeah, that's stupid. Really really stupid. As in you're smart enough to know that's a lie when you read it. As in you, Tzor, are educated enough to know that's the most retarded claim anyone has ever made in the history of the universe.

Yes, well, they count every single natural miscarriage as an abortion in their statistics.

-Crissa

[RobbyPants]

Misleading statistic is misleading.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

The report states, “Approximately 1 in 5 U.S. pregnancies have ended in abortion,”

Yeah, that's stupid. Really really stupid. As in you're smart enough to know that's a lie when you read it. As in you, Tzor, are educated enough to know that's the most retarded claim anyone has ever made in the history of the universe.

Yes, well, they count every single natural miscarriage as an abortion in their statistics.

-Crissa

Ah, then it makes sense. And not surprising, humans miscarriage an awful lot.

[violence in the media]

Yes, VitM, they are PEOPLE, created equal with inaienable rights. There is more to this than the filthy purse strings of the Planned Parenthood abortion mills.

Sorry Tzor, I just don't view them that way. Moreover, I don't agree with affording them rights, equal, inalienable, or otherwise, that supercede the circumstances of the mother. It's not my business or your business to decide for her whether or not to allow an accumulation of cells to develop into a human being.

A woman's right to NOT have any particular offspring, for any reasons she chooses, is greater than that organism's right to a potential existance.