Lago's Kickass D&D-Book Marketing Strategy!

[Lago PARANOIA]

Amongst the less hardcore grognards I knew, many of them stopped buying any Forgotten Realms books by the time 3E D&D was around. Other than the 3E FR campaign setting book, many of them thought the subsequent 3E/3.5E FR splatbooks and modules were crap.

But these modules were crap...

[Orca]

Ridiculousness aside, I don't seem to recall; what is Arcanis other than a broken Magic card?

Wikipedia is your friend

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanis

[Lago PARANOIA]

I was hoping not to have to do this, but with Arcanis seriously being offered up as an alternative I suppose that I have but NO CHOICE

Gnomes

Gnomes in Arcanis are ugly, short half-breeds. These Gnomes are not an independent race, but are considered an 'aberration' race, resulting from the unholy breeding between Dwarves and Humans. Gnomes in Arcanis are disgustingly deformed, as the curse applied to dwarves applies equally to the stature of their offspring.

Other playable races exist, such as half-orcs and half-hobgoblins, but their numbers are far smaller than the primary races. Notably, halflings are NOT a playable race.

Yeah, no.

[ggroy]

[JonSetanta]

Wikipedia is your friend

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanis

Naturally. I was more curious about resident interpretations than site quotes. Oh well..


On Halflings (or lack thereof): they're the same species as Dwarf and Gnome. Nothing is lost. Don't tell anyone! Shh

[Lago PARANOIA]

On Halflings (or lack thereof): they're the same species as Dwarf and Gnome. Nothing is lost. Don't tell anyone! Shh

No shit, but now all of the short people are ugly abominations of nature. They're like half-orcs, but even more repulsive to play.

Haven't the lil' shorties suffered enough?

[JonSetanta]

Play a Dwarf.

Shave.

Profit.

[Username17]

That was a spelling error on my part, Arcanus is the land from Master of Magic. And that's essentially the world from Magic the Gathering. But honestly, WotC straight up owns Dominaria which is literally from Magic the Gathering. Because frankly, that comes with a lot of cool recyclable art.



-Username17

[JonSetanta]

Ah, typo. That explains it.

Also, fuck yeah Phyrexia.
I actually inserted that plane in to Planescape somewhere along the LE/LN corner way back in AD&D, back in high school.
The Magic gamers of the group loved it; the non-CCG fans hated it, thought it was stupid.
"Zombie machines? What next. Borg? YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED"

Post-Time Spiral Dominaria would make another great RPG setting.
I don't see why Wizards wraps that up in a book and sells it.
Throw in quality (and original, NOT reprint from cards) art with equal proportions fluff and crunch, and I'd dish out $20 for it.
They'd probably charge $30 for 200 pages of fluff though.

[tzor]

Personally, for something completely different, I propose the default setting for 5E should be ... Lankhmar.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Okay, wizards, as a subscriber to the DDI I know that you made a lot of promises that you didn't intend to keep and I know that your playtest is pretty much a fucking sham.

However, there are still a few basic goddamn things you can do not to piss off the players.

First of all, stop releasing bullshit on new races. NO ONE CARES ABOUT REVENANTS OR GITHS OR WHATEVER. Most DMs won't incorporate them into their campaign so why would a player care about it?

Secondly, that time period when you used to release a bunch of new equipment and feats and powers and shit? What happened to that? The last four months or so has been a complete fucking dearth of new options except for specific builds (OOOOO! Bards who like multiclassing!) and have been more wanking to how cool and awesome your campaign is.

Thirdly, when you DO release new material do a little bit of fucking coordinating. We did not need another Fighter Essentials. Between the Player's Handbook and Divine Power clerics didn't even get enough class-specific stuff to fill up one page.

[Lago PARANOIA]

So. Now that the boards have gotten less stupid, let's continue.

The biggest problem with any new edition is finding out what sacred cows to keep and which ones to eliminate. If the sacred cow is flawed-but-good (like multiclassing) you ideally rework it that it functions okay.

The problem comes with the fact that some sacred cows are just bad and unworkable. Here are a few of D&D's more persistent stinky cows:

Hit Points
Psionics
Items and feats that add pluses.
15-Minute Workday
6 Stats
And get your degree!

One idea that I have heard is that you can quell people bitching about sacred cows if you resurrect some older, harmless ones. That way, when people go 'we don't have three-digit hit points anymore! This edition sucks and isn't D&D' you can go 'true, but we brought back some classic D&D elements. Isn't that enough to allay your superficial fears?'

Some harmless or limited-harm sacred cows that come to mind are cursed magical items, open-ended wishes, spheres of annihilation, rust monsters that actually screwed you over, anti-magic fields, and morale checks for enemies, the assassin class, random encounter charts, and calling the Rogue class a Thief class.

So. Even though I do not approve of open-ended wishes, the actual effect on the game is small enough that if putting that into the game means that we can move to a 4-stat or 8-stat system once and for all I think it's a fair trade.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Lago, D&D's 6 attribute system is nonsensical and annoying, but its actual impact on play in comparison to, say, the skill system is minuscule. I think that Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha are so fundamentally iconically D&D as to make them almost untouchable. You could change how they work, but the names are probably too ingrained.

That said, S&P did the whole 'Muscle, Stamina, Aim, Agility, Endurance, Health, etc, etc' thing. If some sort of claim in that direction could be made, then just maybe...

[Lago PARANOIA]

I agree. I think it would be easier to just add two new stats to D&D altogether and keep the rest. The new stats would be Agility and Intuition.

[Psychic Robot]

Hit Points
Psionics
Items and feats that add pluses.
15-Minute Workday
6 Stats

I'm going to have to disagree with most of that. Hit points are stupid, but they are an easy way of representing your ability not to die. While I hate psionics in my fantasy, I don't see why they are a "stinky cow." Items and feats adding bonuses aren't even stinky, I don't think--as long as you keep the bonuses under control, things can work out fairly, I believe. While the six-stat system isn't perfect, I feel that it does a fair job of representing the characteristics of human abilities. (I think that White Wolf's nine-stat system does a better job, but I think that six stats work out well in practice.)

EDIT: Sigh. I started researching the revenant race. Here's what I found:

http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx ... t/20090515

I think there might have been a version of the idea as a race somewhere in 3rd edition.

Why wouldn't they have developers who were familiar with 3e?

[RobbyPants]

I agree. I think it would be easier to just add two new stats to D&D altogether and keep the rest. The new stats would be Agility and Intuition.

This reminds me a lot of 2E Skills & Powers. They split each ability score into two sub scores, which would have actually covered Agility and Intuition.

Of course, this almost always lead to everyone putting the max four-point split allowed to get the half of the stat you actually cared about as high as you wanted. So you ended up with everyone having Str split into Muscle 18/xx and Stamina 14 (dumping their encumbrance for +hit/+damage), splitting Dex into Aim 14 and Balance 18 (dumping ranged attacks for AC), and splitting Con into Health 14 and Fitness 18 (dumping resurrection chance for HP).

I think the idea of the system was cute, but the fact that everyone always split the exact same way should have been a bit of a warning sign to the devs. [/offtopic]

[Username17]

Frankly, I think that Charisma and Constitution should both go out rather than adding more stats in. Most players want to get the girl at the end of the day, and being told that only Sorcerers, Bards, and Paladins have a "get the girl" stat is insulting. Constitution just doesn't actually do anything in the game. It's a total meta stat, and shouldn't exist.

-Username17

[RobbyPants]

What do you mean by it being a meta stat? I guess I've always assumed the problem with Constitution is that everyone needs it about equally, so it doesn't behave the same way as other stats (in that no one ever dumps it). It's never a matter of if you have a good Con or not; it's a matter of how good your Con is.

[Murtak]

Constitution is mostly used to calculate other stats. How many constitution skills are there? Anything apart from concentration? Apart from that, constitution adds to HPs, fortitude saves and ... running checks I think? I'm not even sure whether adding to HPs (and thereby allowing wizards to be tougher than fighters) is advisable.

You could, for example, go with 4 + 3 stats. Strength/Agility/Logic/Intuition function similar to current DnD attributes and Fortitude/Reflexes/Willpower are used for saving throws. Anyone who wants more HPs takes the appropriate feat(s), anyone who wants to be charismatic puts that down on their screen and acts like it (feel free to add a "good looks" or "great first impression" feat).

[RandomCasualty2]

Frankly, I think that Charisma and Constitution should both go out rather than adding more stats in. Most players want to get the girl at the end of the day, and being told that only Sorcerers, Bards, and Paladins have a "get the girl" stat is insulting. Constitution just doesn't actually do anything in the game. It's a total meta stat, and shouldn't exist.

Yeah. Con can be lumped into Strength and charisma shouldn't really exist at all as a stat. I would also personally like to just get rid of wisdom and intelligence and just combine them into a single magic stat. Just get rid of the bullshit of 3 magic stats that you only take one of anyway.

[Username17]

What do you mean by it being a meta stat? I guess I've always assumed the problem with Constitution is that everyone needs it about equally, so it doesn't behave the same way as other stats (in that no one ever dumps it). It's never a matter of if you have a good Con or not; it's a matter of how good your Con is.

I mean that no one really makes Con checks for anything. While having a high Con vs. a low Con is actually bigger on average than having a large hit die vs. a small one, the actual impact on any particular level gain is much lower than the randomnisicity of simply rolling well or poorly on your hit die that level (the spread on a d10 is seriously nine points). And the 4e hit point calculation system makes it matter even less. The effects on Fort save are certainly there, but the difference between multiclassing warrior levels or not is really a bigger difference. If you just have everyone in the party read out their Fort saves, you probably can't arrange them by Con score.

There really aren't any Constitution skills. You can't really describe any action that you do or challenge you solve constitutionally. It's totally passive. It just fiddles with behind the scenes numbers that the game is trying to standardize anyway. 4e doing away with hit dice (and by extension the Con modifier to hit dice) was a good move. And once you've done that, you seriously have to ask why the Con Score even exists. Yes, there are Con related powers, but read through them, why are they Con Related? What the fuck does being resistant to disease (the only thing that Con really "does" in 4e) have to do with any Inferlock power as described?

And seriously, the substat on Strength is endurance. What does that say about the place of Con as an actual score measuring, well, anything?

-Username17

[tzor]

Frankly, I think that Charisma and Constitution should both go out rather than adding more stats in.

I think the biggest problem to the six attributes is that they have always been tied to the class they represent and not what they specifically mean in game.

Wisdom, for example, really has nothing to do with being "holy" but the ability to observe the world around you. (But I think people don't get this idea in the real world either.)

Charisma doesn't mean "Chick magnet" but the ability to influence the world around you through presuasion.

Constitution, because of the nature of the HP system, is basically the D&D equivalent of a "soak" stat. (Ah the advantages of a herocially healthy immune system.)

[tzor]

I mean that no one really makes Con checks for anything. While having a high Con vs. a low Con is actually bigger on average than having a large hit die vs. a small one, the actual impact on any particular level gain is much lower than the randomnisicity of simply rolling well or poorly on your hit die that level (the spread on a d10 is seriously nine points).

That's because they are generally connected to the skills as a consequence of the initial skill check, as is the case with Swim (as per d20 SRD).

If you are underwater, either because you failed a Swim check or because you are swimming underwater intentionally, you must hold your breath. You can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to twice your Constitution score, but only if you do nothing other than take move actions or free actions. ... After that period of time, you must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round to continue holding your breath. Each round, the DC for that check increases by 1. If you fail the Constitution check, you begin to drown.

[Koumei]

Wisdom, for example, really has nothing to do with being "holy" but the ability to observe the world around you.

And Wisdom automatically increases as you age*, and thus as you get older, your hearing and vision improve.

*Which is stupid as well. There are heaps of old people who spent their adult years trying not to learn anything and are as thick as two planks. Being old doesn't inherently make you wiser, being more experienced does. And that's handled by experience.

[Username17]

I would be happy enough with four stats:

• Strength
• Dexterity
• Intelligence
• Wisdom

And four Defenses:

• Fortitude
• Reflex
• Willpower
• Perception (or Insight, I honestly don't care)

If I was making a game from scratch, I would scratch the names of Dex, Wis, and Int. But if I was actually trying to make D&D, I would keep the names because they make people happy.

Sure, some folks would be unhappy that Charisma went away, but I think once they realized that it meant that Orcs could be great leaders by taking the "Great Leader" trait without having to suck at hitting people with a greataxe that you'd win over plenty of converts.

-Username17