Social Benefits of Education

[Kobajagrande]

Right Tzor. Random shit for the sake of everyone learning random shit is of no use. Compulsory learning other languages, history, etc whatever is of no use.

Teaching "random shit" also means making you a well-rounded individual. You may not care about history, literature, art, exercise, and all the other finer things in life, but others do and find it useful, and generally, like it that there are things in their life outside their work, and that when they come back home, their life hasn't ended for a day, it has just begun.

I for one am grateful for broad education, because it made me understand a great deal about how the world around me functions. Yes, even the stuff that I'll never get to use, like, for example, how the nuclear power plant works. At very least, now its not some mystical voodoo stuff, and I was able to tell that it wasn't for me.

How often does that steel worked need to go to another country to speak another language? How much of that other language will they remember later in life or even be able to make use of?

And what kind of mystical precognition powers are you using to know that someone will grow up to be a steel worker as opposed to doctor? Will you ask a kid, when he's 6 years old, or 15 yo? How the hell do you know a kid like that will make up a right choice for the rest of his life? How do you know if he'll like physics, or if he will hate physics, unless you show it to him and let him decide?

People stuck in teaching people to be well random end up with people learning trivial shit that will have no bearing on their later life. That is the damn problem.

And who's to decide what's useful and what's not? You? You already showed to be dumb as fuck about it.

Like with Literature teaching people what to think of books or stories. They need to be taught how to think for themselves.

Meh. Majority of people do not comprehend classic literature, and it has been so throughout history. Different way of teaching literature won't fix that, unfortunately. I would be more than happy that if more people appreciated artistic qualities and there was less schundliteratur around (oh right, I forgot, you don't know what it means because you're against learning foreign languages; oh well), but I don't delude myself into thinking its any sort of realistic goal.

Still, literature is at least teaching you that there are things beyound "words" and "plot". If you cannot comprehend that, that is entirely your problem. You have been shown a larger world, and decided to shut yourself against it. Like you've been doing with a lot of other things I see.

Remember when religion was taught all throughout schools and it ruled everyone life? Remember when the world was flat?

No-one remembers that you idiot, it was 500 years ago. Not that you'd know, I guess, since history is not necessary.

Schools do NOT care about actually teaching otherwise they wouldn't still be banning books, but look at them before they say we need to ban them. People running schools and education are afraid that people might learn something and think different from them.

Oh cut with the teenage crap around here.

I may have liked that Home-Ec class that actually taught stuff.

Fuck that as well. You debate whether cooking should be learned? I learned to cook by myself when I started living on my own, got bored of making simple meals after the first week, and did some cooking. And you're trying to make a science out of that? Go fuck yourself in your lazy ass.

Oh, and to cover some more things you've "raised".

History? You don't need it? Perhaps if you did, you'd know there was his event called Second World War, and know how it effected the development of the world. Perhaps you'd also know about role of Nuremberg Tribunal in the development of the global justice system, and maybe, just maybe you'd get US to accept the International Criminal Court instead of trying to buy its soldiers a ticket out of it.

PE? Even the old Romans said Mens sana in corpore sano. Oh right, I forgot. Useless and not necessary to know. Did you ever wonder how long are you in school every day? It damn should provide you recreation. And, when you're young, have you practice some locomotive functions. Like how to coordinate your moves when climbing a damn rope (also, I had fun with the rope. I am also the only person I know who liked doing that). Or train you to dodge a fucking object flying in your general direction.

Physics? Maybe if you knew about it, you'd understand more about that whole global warming thing, and just maybe, you could decide for yourself if it sounds plausible or not. And then, maybe, US government couldn't ignore stuff like Kyoto protocol.

And your country is shit because seriously 5% of your country has made it the most influental country in the world and established principles how to remain so for over 60 years, and you have at least 60% of people who are unable to keep up with the requirements of doing so. And your retarded "don't teach them anything about the world around them" policy is just going to make more intellectual cripples who'd go around screwing your country even more.

And your little idea about giving every child what he wants during education is great. Seriously, no-one would disagree with that. But do you have any idea how much it would cost to do that? So much that its impossible. There, short and simple. And if you try to bullshit about reducing some other public expenses, don't bother. It doesn't work like that. Besides, you seem to want your government to have more money to spend, but seem unwilling to accept VAT. Well we have a saying which translates literally to "you want to get fucked, but not get penetrated".

No seriously, stop trying to advocate ruining the world out of your petty little frustrations.

EDIT: Oh, and for fuck's shake, stop with the "need to see the doctor before exercise". These are 7 YEAR OLD KIDS we're talking about. If they cannot run, or have bad bones or kneecaps or bad cardio or whatever, and they don't have medical evidence that they're incapable of doing PE, then their parents should be shot, because they've literally screwed the one thing they had lowest chances of screwing, and in doing so, they've screwed their child for life.

EDIT2: Oh, and fucking point of learning foreign languages is to start AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Because you learn it better when you're young. Every year is a wasted year.

[Koumei]

...I'm just not going to bother trying to argue against your warped ideas, Shad. Suffice to say, when I'm agreeing with PL, who I disagree with as a hobby, it has to mean he's advocating something sensible (along with everyone else here) and the opposition is in the bleach-drinking level of retardation.

Yes, teaching people individually to their strengths is a good idea. Get back to me on that when there's one teacher for every student. Yes, teaching students how to live, how to survive when they leave school and home is also good. Many schools do this to some degree, but they could do a better job. No, cutting algebra, history, PE, science, Knowledge (Arcana) and other languages won't make this easier.

I totally understand the failing in certain fields - we only did a few weeks of study on budgeting and "how to get the essentials without paying hundreds of dollars or breaking the law", and when Sex Ed was being taught, I was in a Christian school. Haha, yeah, I think you know what it means. A vague course on the reproductive system, and a two-week (one class per week) class that basically boiled down to "Sex is bad. Masturbation is extra bad, but we admit it won't actually make you blind. Gay is DOUBLE HERESY. And when you ignore everything we say, at least use a condom."

But on the other hand, they taught us history that was useful (my main complaint being they focused too much on our own - while that's important and relevant, it would have been better if they covered things that happened in countries older than Australia), how to prepare cheap and nutritious food instead of blowing your pay on McDonalds, a variety of things which are useful in general (I failed Advanced Math in year 11, but I can still quickly work out the chance of something happening, for instance, which is really handy in gaming, as well as looking at statistics to decide what a good option is in general. Pretty much all classes taught me something I use in the real world), I speak enough Japanese that I could maintain e-mail contact with suppliers in their own language (at my former job) and our Work Ed class taught resume/interview skills that even today are still taught in government-funded courses.

So seriously, it's not as bad as you think, though it does need improving, and the very things you say are bad are actually good.

Also, we played dodgeball (Poison Ball, we called it) with soft rubber balls that couldn't hurt anyone. Even if hurled by the athletic kid at the nerd.

And as for paintball, and I say this as a little girl, only pussies use more covering than overalls and the mask+vitals (neck, temples, groin) if they're using anything less than hard paintballs, high-power guns. Adults love that shit.

[Kobajagrande]

A vague course on the reproductive system, and a two-week (one class per week) class that basically boiled down to "Sex is bad. Masturbation is extra bad, but we admit it won't actually make you blind. Gay is DOUBLE HERESY. And when you ignore everything we say, at least use a condom."

God, I wish I had that exact course in my highschool. It would be hilarious.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

When does a steel worker go to another country? He doesn't have to. At my work, I hear about 5-6 different languages spoken on a daily basis. The people who get promoted to management are universally mulitlingual so they can communicate with more people.

You are taking an advantage, and trying to make it out to a wast of time. In today's workplace, multilingual employees have an edge on the competition.

[Judging__Eagle]

And as for paintball, and I say this as a little girl, only pussies use more covering than overalls and the mask+vitals (neck, temples, groin) if they're using anything less than hard paintballs, high-power guns. Adults love that shit.

If you've been playing paintball and you're not in pain somewhere, you did it wrong.

Eyes are mandatory, and I will not be the last, nor first, person to tackle any shitpump that decides to"adjust" their goggles and put it back over their eyes.

The rest of the face is usually covered b/c most modern paintball goggles are integrally attached to a face and head cover.

This does not mean that you cannot get paint in your mouth if it hits your face guard, and your mouth was open b/c you were running and breathing deeply.

The only thing that I wear aside from the headgear is a single-piece set of coveralls; I don't want to get myself filthy with the ground when I'm crawling or kneeling; and I don't want to bother worrying about cleaning real clothes when I'm done playing.

I've never seen, nor heard, about anyone wearing any sort of padding for paintball; and I've had about a dozen friends or aquantences who went full out with the hobby, buying their own harnesses, ordering specialized markers, buying more than one marker, etc. none of them really even considered buying padding of any kind.

Any sort of padding slows you down, and the damage you take from paintballs is minimal compared to the damage you can deal yourself twisting an ankle, or impacting a wrist while doing something less than wise. An ankle or wrist or knee brace is a better form of protection than any sort of plating or padding would be.

Also, Koumei isn't the first, or last, girl who I've heard mention about how much they liked paintball, and the welts or bruises that they got after; and how much fun it was.



On Broad Education, here's an other handy thing, an anecdote even, so you'll like it Shad, you absolutely love using anecdotes. Unlike you, I'll actually give details and context.

My father was educated in a private school in an other country. He learned math, science, greek, latin, german, castillian (aka. spanish), literature, history, poetry and a bunch of other things.

When he reached the university level, he studied engineering.

Today he works as a translator of "request" documents that south and central american corporations submit to his employer for massive power plant projects. Almost all of them have been for hydro electric dams, and the projects take years to complete, and much translating needs to be done.

The translating isn't from english to spanish, so much as it is from English Canadian Engineering Terms, to Columbian Engineering terms, or Peruvian Engnineering Terms, or Mexican Terms etc. etc.. There are seriously 4 or 5 different words for "Bearing" in the various spanish speaking countries, and each is used by a different country. So you have to have a broad knowledge of the fact that countries have different languages to even perform as a translator.

My father reads in multiple languages, and none of it is about engineering at all. He reads Bill Bryson's discussion and analysis of the English language, not the schematics or details of hydro electrical dams.

[shadzar]

Right Tzor. Random shit for the sake of everyone learning random shit is of no use. Compulsory learning other languages, history, etc whatever is of no use.

Teaching "random shit" also means making you a well-rounded individual.

There is the stupidity itself. well-rounded.

What does that really do for you in life beside make you inadequate for any employment. Not a damn thing.

That is the line of shit those people have been spouting for years because they still don't know how to make education work.

It is the lie they tell to everyone including themselves, thinking it means something.

Well-rounded, means you don't know enough to to anything. I know plenty of people with well-rounded high school educations that have no jobs and graduated high school with or after me. Without being able to go to college they had no chance because the information they were taught was useless.

Well I guess being well-rounded may have one use. Someone could be a professional contestant on Jeopardy.

Lago, don't give me the scores are dropping because minorities. If they aren't learning anything either, then the system doesn't work and it proves it. Also a recession means jack shit about SAT scores. There are always poor people in public schools. It changes nothing. All you are doing is the same thing I am talking about where it is the money that you are using to say someone is worth less. But you do it not only for lower income, but minorities as well.

So anyone not as good off as you is worthless and the problem with America right? It is a child's fault that their parent doesn't make $20 million per year, and a child's fault their parent got laid off, or some other shit right?

Heaven forbid blame the system because the US never does anything wrong, nor can a teacher or school system fail to do its job right?

You people are so fucking full of yourselves.

Frank, it is also a part of the No Child Left Behind bit. That was supposed to have meant that people would be taught properly, but in actuality just passed people who shouldn't have passed. It had the opposite effect. Rather than making sure students were passing grades and learning stuff, they just passed grades so you had less people failing. Since you can argue in disagreement with actual facts and ability to think, can you explain why people are still graduating high school that cannot read or write?

Lago, wow 3 years of high school math? You mean it covered Geometry, Algebra I, AND Algebra II? Such an updated test, how could it be wrong. Or let me guess you didn't know that in many high schools that is the most math offered. While in some states in what would be middle school you learn those except for Algebra II.

I know the school I graduated from still doesn't offer calculus yet in high school.

Also you have to consider that the SAT board doesn't really know what schools are teaching across the states.

Also many schools still teach the minimum to get a "decent" grade on an SAT and that is the way the courses are set up. So you go to school for the SAT. Again this is what needs to change. Not everyone will make use of the SAT so why teach them just how to get a "decent" score on it?

People should be taught things they will need in life, not how to pass a generic college entrance exam, since not all people will be able to go to college. This why it was asked in the first post about free higher education and if pumping money into it would help.

I say it would IF the proper things were taught, and even better if you could leave high school with a 2 year degree in something because of better focused classes rather than that "well-rounded" shit.

Kobajagrande, you don't need precognitive powers. That is the purpose of evaluations. Aptitude tests help telling which subjects someone does better at, but later they are ignored. One reason being they just get screwed by being in a school district that cannot offer something for them, and they or their family just cannot move or they cannot switch schools due to overcrowded classrooms, and no "valid" reason to change schools. Also going to a school out of your district means the school does not get the taxes you district school would. I mentioned automotive clas in high school that were not offered to me amongst others. How do they know which people to offer that to, when they had absolutely nothing prior? What they did was take those not good with any science or math, and figure they would never be smart enough to go to college offered those types of classes to them. That right there is fucked up. So the school already decided which students would be given courses that would help them go to college or not, so what precognitive powers did they use for that? They looked simply at their parents income, and the state funded schools decide to offer a different set of classes to the poorer families. Those on free-lunch or whatever it is called these days. You really telling me all these teachers and school staff that went to college never learned any skills to evaluate students to tell how well they were learning something and never figured anyway to build a course load for the student based on what they might be able to do? No, they base it solely on money. The money the students family has, and the money the school has. That is all it is. The put no other thought into anything.

Literature has ONE major problem. Teaching/telling you the meaning of the story. Telling you what art to like or not. Many people don't like it because the way it is written, and because they are forced to read it and think a certain way about it. Even the teacher don't know how to make their own opinions about it or are forced to keep their mouth shut and only teach what is in the syllabus.

Let's take the infamous Romeo and Juliet. "In Shakespeare's time 'to die' meant to have sex".

So the whole end of the story was they fucked each other against their parents permission. It was all a big metaphor for kids having sex and their parents knowing about it. Ge, I wonder if that story and explanation has anything to do with teen pregnancy these days? Your parents don't want you dating someone, so go have sex with them!

Not to mention they don't know, and will tell you, they don't know what Willy meant, but many scholars think this is what he wrote the play for. So basically Siskle(sp) and Ebert are teaching kids based on their movie review?

I could also mention Pygmalion which I had read long before it came up in school, and the teacher trying to tell me it meant one thing, and I had to correct her and tell her the movie My Fair Lady wasn't a faithful reproduction of the book. So she should read the story again. She found out that what she was teaching WAS based on the movie, that she had never saw rather than the story itself. But not once had ever thought to question the textbooks and the syllabus given to her from the school board. I can only imagine people learning about the Iliad based on the movie Troy with Brad Pitt.

Physics? This idiot at the top of the page somehow must not understand physics is science. I gues the idiot cannot read, because I already mentioned a muon on the other page, and they must have thought it to be some kind of topping at Ben & Jerry's or something. Kobajagrande also probably thinks a quark is a character on Star Trek DS9.

Koumei, I am guessing your location is a typo on purpose meaning you have some problem with and are from Austrailia? Also we freeze our paintballs. You ass better have more padding than that!

No Count I disagree. But that goes back to me thinking you need to be able to speak the language to do the job, which isn't allowed because it is discrimination so you have to find a reason the Spanish speaking person cannot work as a phone call taking customer service rep. Also you need to read and write the language, but you cannot force that either to the point of the management filling in an application for you, or forcing you to fill it out at the place of employment to get around the law. If you cannot read or write, and get screwed on your paycheck then it is your own damn fault for not knowing what it says. Note many places have signs in the stores: We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. That is there for a reason. There are many other ways around that as well. Iomega, when it was still the thing making ZIP drives, fired all the Mexicans for ISO 9000 training and inspection because they would have never been able to pass the course and many were illegal and Iomega knew it and couldn't afford to have them found to be working on the line. You go to another country it is your responsibility to learn the language there, not have everyone else pamper your ass. I had to have a Mexican woman arrested at a comic book store because she refuse to stop trying to steal things and would not listen because she didn't speak English. Her son even tried to explain to her the things she was grabbing were for display only and not for sale or customers to handle. Her son born here spoke both, and that is fine, but her ass living here for 20 years couldn't take the time to learn English? Fuck that! Her ass deserved to get arrested for her own damn negligence. Remember, ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it. Her shoplifting police record will attest to that.

@Judging__Eagle: Good for him. I don't give a shit about other languages like that. The only languages that concern me are MIPS, C, UNIX, PREL, PHP, etc; and back in the day FORTRAN, PASCAL, and BASIC. The point remains, he must have liked it well enough, but I don't give a flying fuck about learning other languages. Me I would rather have the info on the dams themselves.

[Murtak]

Teaching "random shit" also means making you a well-rounded individual.

There is the stupidity itself. well-rounded.

What does that really do for you in life beside make you inadequate for any employment. Not a damn thing.

Being smart and educated makes you more employable, not less. More importantly though, knowing history makes you realize when you are being manipulated in ways that have been tried before. Pretty much any subject, if well taught, will teach you lessons applicable to your life.

That is the line of shit those people have been spouting for years because they still don't know how to make education work.

"How to make education work" is a solved problem. Look at the Scandinavian countries for a guideline. The question you should ask yourself is "why does the government of a high-wage nation not apply those lessons?".

Well-rounded, means you don't know enough to to anything.

One of my professors gave me what I now consider good advice: Know the basics of a lot of fields, know the specifics of a single field. Both are important. Having no breadth of knowledge makes you just as useless as having no width of knowledge. It's an example on another scale, but I can say with certainty that knowing a little about 3D graphics has made me a better programmer as far as business logic is concerned. Similarly knowing LISP and C++ has made me a better Ruby programmer.

Lago, don't give me the scores are dropping because minorities. If they aren't learning anything either, then the system doesn't work and it proves it.

God damn it, I"m not even from your country and I can understand what happens is just fine. Firstly the goals for a given SAT score is constantly moving upwards. Give todays test to someone from 1950 and he will do horribly. Secondly, if in say, 2000 you only test voluntary participants and in 2001 you test everyone scores will go down, simply because the students with bad scores will now have to the test too. There may well be other reasons too, but dismissing these out of hand is bullshit.

Kobajagrande, you don't need precognitive powers. That is the purpose of evaluations. Aptitude tests help telling which subjects someone does better at, but later they are ignored.

One of my friends went from barely passing any test at all to top of the class in the span of a single year. She is now a doctor. When I was younger I played volleyball and soccer and was interested in history and biology. Today I am programmer. Another of my friends actually went to university thrice until he found a career he liked. How do you propose to cover these eventualities?

Literature has ONE major problem. Teaching/telling you the meaning of the story. Telling you what art to like or not. Many people don't like it because the way it is written, and because they are forced to read it and think a certain way about it. Even the teacher don't know how to make their own opinions about it or are forced to keep their mouth shut and only teach what is in the syllabus.

Bad teachers happen. That does not make the subject useless.

So the whole end of the story was they fucked each other against their parents permission. It was all a big metaphor for kids having sex and their parents knowing about it. Ge, I wonder if that story and explanation has anything to do with teen pregnancy these days? Your parents don't want you dating someone, so go have sex with them!

Yeah, right, they all go "I hate the subject, so I am going to take advice from a dead poet". Sheesh. If you want to get a handle on teen pregnancy, stop funding "abstinence only" and start teaching how our bodies work. This is a non-issue in most civilized countries.


As for your language rant, have ever considered that languages warp the very way you think? Learning a new language literally opens up new ways to think. Of course it also allows you to listen to what people in other countries say without going through translation, censorship or caring about what is being made available to you. But hey, who cares about what non-Americans say, right?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Lago, don't give me the scores are dropping because minorities. If they aren't learning anything either, then the system doesn't work and it proves it. Also a recession means jack shit about SAT scores. There are always poor people in public schools. It changes nothing. All you are doing is the same thing I am talking about where it is the money that you are using to say someone is worth less. But you do it not only for lower income, but minorities as well.

Okay, let me try going over this real slowly.

Like I said in the original document scores are dropping because of minorities, but scores are simultaneously rising FOR minorities. If you break down the subgroups, which I will be happy to show you links for if you ask, minority scores have been on the upwards rise.

The SAT test has a white-bias for it, who get better scores. Even when their scores rise and the scores of minorities rise, if more minorities take tests the SAT average drops. How is that blaming minorities?

Secondly, if you had bothered to read that second link you'll have found that SAT performance is a direct factor of family income. What do you think happens in a recession year? THINK about it; as soon as the recession is over there is a jump in SAT scores. Did children suddenly get smarter? Maybe, but considering that pattern happens every time there is a recession it's better to look for some other factor.

And no, I'm not going to discard the recession argument just because it's damaging to your credibility. Every fucking time there is one scores dip and when it's over scores rise for subgroups again.

So anyone not as good off as you is worthless and the problem with America right? It is a child's fault that their parent doesn't make $20 million per year, and a child's fault their parent got laid off, or some other shit right?

I'm just going to ignore this because it's a whiny non-sequitur, which I am starting to believe you specialize in.

Heaven forbid blame the system because the US never does anything wrong, nor can a teacher or school system fail to do its job right?

You people are so fucking full of yourselves.

Firstly, I didn't blame the system nor the US nor the teacher for the falling test scores. I blamed the recession (which the educational system can't control) and the SAT redoing their tests (which is a fault of the SAT administrators, not the educational system). So once again, your point is a whiny non-sequitur.

Secondly, you asserted something that was false (that children are getting stupider; you cited SAT scores), then I pointed out flaws in your analysis (you said 2002 until now--first of all that's untrue until 2006 and then the dip from 2006 onwards is a result of them redoing the tests + recession)

I don't give a fuck about who's responsible for a kid failing, my damn point was that kids have as a long-term trend been succeeding.

Lago, wow 3 years of high school math? You mean it covered Geometry, Algebra I, AND Algebra II? Such an updated test, how could it be wrong. Or let me guess you didn't know that in many high schools that is the most math offered. While in some states in what would be middle school you learn those except for Algebra II.

Shadzar, that's what the SAT has always covered. What are you implying here, that the SAT has gotten easier? Since 1994, the SAT has gotten more difficult and also takes longer. If they weren't failing back then and then we fast-forward to now where the subjects have gotten noticably harder but STILL have scores rising, what the fuck is your problem?

Also you have to consider that the SAT board doesn't really know what schools are teaching across the states.

Why the fuck should they care what states are doing?

Also many schools still teach the minimum to get a "decent" grade on an SAT and that is the way the courses are set up. So you go to school for the SAT. Again this is what needs to change. Not everyone will make use of the SAT so why teach them just how to get a "decent" score on it?

What an ignorant thing to say. You can't teach people to take the SAT. You can prep them for the SAT by familiarizing them with how the questions are going to be asked. But if you actually want to do good on the SAT you actually have to STUDY Algebra/Geometry/Trigonometry, not just a few things.

People should be taught things they will need in life, not how to pass a generic college entrance exam, since not all people will be able to go to college. This why it was asked in the first post about free higher education and if pumping money into it would help.

???

The SAT, if you're not taking the subject tests, TESTS ENGLISH, WRITING, AND MATHEMATICS. If schools shouldn't be teaching these things then what the fuck should they be teaching?

[Gelare]

...I'm just not going to bother trying to argue against your warped ideas, Shad. Suffice to say, when I'm agreeing with PL, who I disagree with as a hobby, it has to mean he's advocating something sensible (along with everyone else here) and the opposition is in the bleach-drinking level of retardation.

Thanks for putting it so eloquently, Koumei. I echo this sentiment right here. Bleach-drinking.

[shadzar]

Also you have to consider that the SAT board doesn't really know what schools are teaching across the states.

Why the fuck should they care what states are doing?

Because the states decide what to teach and the SAT board has one test for ALL in the country. Unless that has changed. I recall there used to be more than just the SAT for other things.

The SAT is set up based on what everyone should know to get into college. If the state isn't teaching the things required in its schools to be in line with other schools in the country, then that also proves the problem.

Each state sets up its own curriculum. I went through several states, and many thought every state taught the same thing at the same time. Well they don't. But the SAT is based on everyone teaching the same thing at the same grades.

That is why they should care. Not that the SAT needs to be changed on a state-by-state basis, but they need to do something to get all states to have similar systems so the whole country does better, rather than having many states behind others because of a poor curriculum or an outdated one.

That is the problem I mean about not teaching what people need, because it isn't looked at. A national curriculum needs to be set up as long as the colleges and universities all use the same system for testing people, the SAT.

What you failed to understand was your comment that 3 maths are in the SAT. I had much more than just three, and all that was offered at my high school was Algebra II for the highest math class. So this was my fault because where I live?

So if the SAT has any real value, then they need to get together with colleges and universities and explain to the government that the educational system is too chaotic across the nation. Then their might be a chance for better education when people actually know what others are learning, rather than assume everyone has the same chances....which would mean that education levels would be the same everywhere and the "social" acceptance of people with less than a college education would be raised, and probably lower crime rates, and religion focus more like those going to university.

When you stop looking down on people for things that are our of their control...they tend to be more sociable. When you blame someone for being born into poverty, then they tend to less sociable. Remember that is what this thread is about. How education affects people socially.

Seems many people keep skipping away from that point and want to argue something else.

If the system works as it is, then it validates Shatner's premise (his wife's?) that said that people with higher education tend to do better socially in the world. Otherwise the system doesn't work because only higher educated people are more likely socially accepted or what have you, and have less problems, better health, etc.

Or did people still forget what Shatner was asking and just wanting to find a fight somewhere to get into.

Again I agree with the premise, that higher education does better in those areas mentioned; the reason I see this is the lack of it means they do poorer because of the caste system set up in the US and the way the system has failed to actually educate properly, not just academic subjects, but educate to remove the caste system itself because it continues to perpetuate it.

If the free education system worked for those under college level then those people would also do better, but so long as society views them as lesser people for being born in an area with a poor education system in general or just too poor to go for higher education; then those with the lower than college or university level educations would do better in those area as well be it better health, less stress, less crime, etc.

[Lago PARANOIA]

shadzar, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Could you PLEASE reword that? All I'm getting from you is that A) the school system is a failure because it teaches subjects people don't need to succeed in life. B) the United States sets up a caste-based social system based on education level. C) The standards for education are not universal (which I can infer that this reinforces problem Beta), and D) The SAT should coordinate with schools for testing.

Since you didn't say anything about the SAT scores I'm going to assume that you took my advice and shut the fuck up about them. That's a wise decision, because the long-term trend, even in the 21st century, is that they ARE going upwards.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

No Count I disagree. But that goes back to me thinking you need to be able to speak the language to do the job, which isn't allowed because it is discrimination so you have to find a reason the Spanish speaking person cannot work as a phone call taking customer service rep. Also you need to read and write the language, but you cannot force that either to the point of the management filling in an application for you, or forcing you to fill it out at the place of employment to get around the law. If you cannot read or write, and get screwed on your paycheck then it is your own damn fault for not knowing what it says. Note many places have signs in the stores: We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. That is there for a reason. There are many other ways around that as well. Iomega, when it was still the thing making ZIP drives, fired all the Mexicans for ISO 9000 training and inspection because they would have never been able to pass the course and many were illegal and Iomega knew it and couldn't afford to have them found to be working on the line. You go to another country it is your responsibility to learn the language there, not have everyone else pamper your ass. I had to have a Mexican woman arrested at a comic book store because she refuse to stop trying to steal things and would not listen because she didn't speak English. Her son even tried to explain to her the things she was grabbing were for display only and not for sale or customers to handle. Her son born here spoke both, and that is fine, but her ass living here for 20 years couldn't take the time to learn English? Fuck that! Her ass deserved to get arrested for her own damn negligence. Remember, ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it. Her shoplifting police record will attest to that.

That's the largest amount of Crazy that anyone has ever directed at me. I don't know whether to be flattered or to have projectile diarrhea.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Projectile diarrhea?!

And I thought my dog-egg caviar joke was disgusting. D:

[Roy]

I'm staying out of the Fail thread for the most part. Just one thing.

Fuck that as well. You debate whether cooking should be learned? I learned to cook by myself when I started living on my own, got bored of making simple meals after the first week, and did some cooking. And you're trying to make a science out of that? Go fuck yourself in your lazy ass.

Plus Fucking One. And to shad: Bitch, please. I learned how to cook everything I have an interest in eating at age 9. Most of em fucking tell you how on the box, so it simply requires basic reading and direction following skills. I probably could have done it at an earlier age, but reaching high enough to manage the pot might have been a problem, and my parents understandably didn't want me burning myself. All in all, I would say the process took about a week, maybe two. That's hardly valid course material, even if it were not insultingly simple. Though granted, learning how to cook is a valid life skill, you can easily learn it yourself if you care at all.

[shadzar]

And yet there are many adults that do not know how. Reason: Not taught in schools, and they allege that the parents are teaching everything that is not taught in schools.

"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

I am not talking about a mook just boiling water and throwing the bag into it. I mean cooking cooking. That whole food pyramid they keep changing around, as to telling not just what to eat this week, and how to fix it for taste, as well as not losing the things you are eating it over something else for.

Not just grabbing a box of Uncle's Bens when you don't was to get a barf burger from McDonald's.

Also note that in many people's homes there may be no parent at meal times and only the oldest learns to cook, which screws the rest because they don't have a chance. Or the parents don't have access to all needed foods for their diets.

So not only does cooking give everyone from all walks of life the advantage to learn and eat healthy, they can cut school lunch costs down a bit by having students make their own. And the HomeEc cooked food will be likely much better for you than the greasy whatever from the cafeteria, unless you are attending the school that has no-meat Monday where no one can eat meat to improve acceptance of vegans or something.

Cooking in schools used to be for both sexes, then 60's~70's it became female only because males were given the choice to take it, and today it isn't even taught in most schools. Just look at the obesity in America now. I wonder if that might have a connection between them?

[Meikle641]

As it so happens my highschool had a cooking school and a full bakery on the premises. Students from all grades had a chance to take it, no restrictions. We were taught food hygiene, how to cook, and all that fun stuff. Me, I was terrified when I was shoved in there since the farthest I went into a kitchen was the refridgerator. I missed a fair bit by skipped to the grade 11 course, but hey.


Thanks to it being worked by students and 2-4 actual chefs/bakers the costs were low, just barely above cost. Thus we had nutritious and *cheap* food made from scratch daily. Pasta, salads (we were one of the first in region to ditch fries), stir fry, and more traditional lunch staples.

So, it wasn't exactly Home Ec (which I totally would have taken), but it was very useful. That said, my school was full of such courses, so your mileage will vary.

[shadzar]

As it so happens my highschool had a cooking school and a full bakery on the premises. Students from all grades had a chance to take it, no restrictions. We were taught food hygiene, how to cook, and all that fun stuff. Me, I was terrified when I was shoved in there since the farthest I went into a kitchen was the refridgerator. I missed a fair bit by skipped to the grade 11 course, but hey.


Thanks to it being worked by students and 2-4 actual chefs/bakers the costs were low, just barely above cost. Thus we had nutritious and *cheap* food made from scratch daily. Pasta, salads (we were one of the first in region to ditch fries), stir fry, and more traditional lunch staples.

So, it wasn't exactly Home Ec (which I totally would have taken), but it was very useful. That said, my school was full of such courses, so your mileage will vary.

Sadly American schools and the education system doesn't even consider those things of value, because parents all magically have pockets full of money overflowing, and have the time and know how to teach them. Contrary to the rising number of people on assisted lunches.

I just found out the school even served breakfast! I had not known that until today! Neither did my parents when I went. Ain't that some shit! All those rushed morning I could have just eaten at school. Yet again more stuff offered to only certain people.

American schools decide for you what your chance at life and career is going to be before they ever meet you.

Did they have "cooking wine" in that cooking class?

[Maj]

I don't expect you to know a lot about the War of 1812 except:

And they burned down DC on my birthday in 1814!!

There is the stupidity itself. well-rounded.

What does that really do for you in life beside make you inadequate for any employment. Not a damn thing.

It improves social conditions. It breeds tolerance between different groups of people - be it old/young, men/women, sickly/healthy, gays/straight, Christian/Buddhist, black/white/green/purple, etc, etc. It increases a person's knowledge about cultural idioms and social etiquette. It expands a person's horizons so they try new foods like aloo saag and sukiyaki. It gives people options like tai chi and yoga over dodgeball and flag football. It gives people options.

Well-rounded, means you don't know enough to to anything. I know plenty of people with well-rounded high school educations that have no jobs and graduated high school with or after me. Without being able to go to college they had no chance because the information they were taught was useless.

This is not a fault of being well-rounded. This is a fault of being taught poorly. If the information a person learns in Spanish class is useless to them after high school, it's because they don't actually know it - and that's the fault of the teacher (or perhaps the student who doesn't give a damn), not of the subject matter.

Frank, it is also a part of the No Child Left Behind bit. That was supposed to have meant that people would be taught properly, but in actuality just passed people who shouldn't have passed.

Around here, it meant that schools sucked it up a bit harder - they started teaching classes aimed at passing the apititude tests, rather than actually teaching a subject. It's been a bit frightening to watch - I would have problems with even basic math, and I've tutored college algebra and calculus (kids are now taught to do these grids that keep them from ever actually multiplying - instead, they fill in the chart and add - it's laboriously long, and never goes into the concept behind what multiplication is).

I don't think anyone here is really arguing that the current state of US education is the greatest system to have.

Also many schools still teach the minimum to get a "decent" grade on an SAT and that is the way the courses are set up. So you go to school for the SAT. Again this is what needs to change. Not everyone will make use of the SAT so why teach them just how to get a "decent" score on it?

You and I agree with this point - the SAT is supposed to be a measure of what you've learned, not how well you can study for it. So many of my fellow honor students had the prep classes and the stacks of workbooks.

Most of em fucking tell you how on the box, so it simply requires basic reading and direction following skills.

They have boxes for cooking?

[shadzar]

Spanish is useles to me all together. Just try and use it on anyone you meet around here and they won't be able to tlak to you. Even the "hispanic" and "latino" people in the calss are learning a new language when they are taught.

The speak Mexican, and will tell you flat out. To them it is of no use either, because they "don't plan to ever go to Spain,a nd hope not to have to return to Mexico, and would prefer more time spent on teaching English".

I live in America, and everything had better be written in English (American) that they except me to read.

Again, other people can learn what they want and should be able to IF they want, but I would have much preferred and gotten more use out of those other languages like PASCAL and FORTRAN....not that either are used that much anymore....Hell maybe even Latin so I could read the damn medicine I get at the doctor's office, or understand what is being said on CSI and shit.

The boxes you are supposed to eat I think, but you shouldn't cook those.

That well-rounded around here just pisses people off. Minorities now, and when I was in school were complaining how they would have no use for things such as the infamous history, and were trying to get courses that they could use since they would not be able to go to college anyway. I don't know what ever came of it, but minorities were the highest dropout rate when I was in school, because they got nothing out of it. Became working age and took a job, and were much happier for it.

So well-rounded as good as the intention is, only helps those with the chance of further using the information, otherwise it really is a waste.

I have no problem with anyone's sexual preference, or whatever it is called. (I don't keep up with anything PC rather than my Windows OS.) But that has nothing to do with being in school. Had I paid attention I would be more like those trying to stop gay marriages, or mixed race marriages, etc.

I just don't care, and never did. I am me, and you are you.

In order to allow people to get along better, it is better that people not be forced to get along, or trying to force them to hate the same enemy, the teacher.

It works much better when people are interested in the same things that they get along from that interest rather than a shared disinterest.

That is what we figured out when trying to get rid of black history month, and just teach in in the proper section of time during American History. History kind of works better for EVERYONE when taught in chronological order, not out of order. Probably why many at my school hated it.

World History this year...wait we got to stop and have Black History Month.

European History this year...wait we have to take a break and teach Black History Month....

Haven't even got to the Boston Tea Party and already in the 1950's in history education...WTF?!?!?!

If we are going to be taught about the hypocrites claiming "all men are created equal and endowed by their creator certain unalienable rights: life: LIBERTY..." from the slave owners that founded the country, at least put it in order! SHEESH!

It really is what they think they are teaching, and teachers should know better since they went through it as well. They just need to take that step to figure out why it isn't working as they expected with education, and giving they are supposedly intellectuals, they might be able to figure something out.

Just so many teachers don't care, and would you if you were making $12k per year and working 12 hours a day 5 days a week (60 hour weeks) for 10 months out of the year?

They just need to pick somewhere to start fixing it, or they will never get anywhere. :sigh:

[Maj]

After reading that, I have come to the conclusion that you live in more of a backwoods than Alabama, and you're living with a bunch of people whose apathy is an embarrassment to the democratic system.

My advice: relocate. Clearly school where you are isn't doing its job.

[ubernoob]

Shadzar, you are flat out wrong on so many things that it isn't even funny. May I ask when the last time you stepped inside a classroom or lecture hall was?

[Cynic]

btw: baseball = totally not a redneck sport.
have you seen the yankee/sox rivalry?

now compare that to something like dallas/houston or something.

siriusly, baseball is a blue state game, man. blue state.

[mean_liar]

So I stepped away for the weekend and then BAM, shadzar vomited up a staccato stream of ignorance and bullshittery.

I don't even want to respond other than say that you have some seriously fucked up educational expectations and priorities, and come off as more opinionated than your intellect or the communication of your experiences can sustain.

The others have said the other things I'm thinking so I'll leave it at that.

[shadzar]

After reading that, I have come to the conclusion that you live in more of a backwoods than Alabama, and you're living with a bunch of people whose apathy is an embarrassment to the democratic system.

My advice: relocate. Clearly school where you are isn't doing its job.

If only there was enough money to I would have a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago. Seriously 60% of the businesses around here are bars.

[Kobajagrande]

Wow. Do you even stop to think about what you're saying?

You make absolutely no sense. You say Literature is bad because your teacher is bad. Literally.

You say no-one gains anything by broad education, except people going to college, so it should be eliminated (and screw those who'll get to go to college, but you apparently do not stop to think about it).

Your school sucked, so the system is bad.

You have absolutely no consideration for reality, about how people change their minds about their academic careers while in teenage years. Because, you know, puberty, hormones, maturity, that sort of stuff. I know a bunch of people (myself included) who completely changed their interests during those years. You seriously want a child of 7 years to say "I want to be a doctor!" without having a slightest idea what he's going to have to learn to become a doctor and having only a slight idea of what he's going to do as a doctor, and have the school teach him to be a doctor. You changed your mind kid? Doctor is not all you thought it was? Sorry, kid.

Yah, that would be good.

But you provide a solution - tests!!! Oh my god, give me a break. Is that how you envision working with kids? Give them a test, teach them only about their work? No wonder internet is screwing the society, when there are people with your mindset, who don't see the need to communicate with the kids from the start.

And thanks on your attempts to insult me over physics. Which kinda leads right into my next point. You show an absolute lack of reading comprehension, and surprisingly little talent of making stuff up about people to try and make fun of them. I don't know if that's the failure of your education, but it tells much about...

Your character. Seriously, you look like a person living in their own little world, who violently shuts himself against everything on the outside. The guy who gets harassed in education because he was pathetic, and who thought and still thinks the entire world is stupid and evil, without ever stopping to think that maybe, the problem is in him. The guy so full of frustrations he feels like a personal victory when he deludes himself into thinking "he's shown someone" over the net, and laughs at how smart he is alone in the dark room. Fuck, I hope you are just lying about you having finished highschool, because such amount of teenage hate and angst (sorry, another foreign word, I know, but at least this one is used commonly enough in english so I hope you'd understand it somehow) would only show that you have not grown up. And I don't say this to insult you. I mean it, hoping you'd take it seriously.

For what its worth, I agree with whoever said you live in the worst backwater shithole there is. The problem is that seriously, you think that entire world should be like that shithole of yours. Hell, problem is you never traveled around and saw that no, the rest of the world is not like your shithole, and that your shithole is a really shitty place to live in.

And before you start jumping up and down saying happily how wrong I am about assessing you, spare your fingers. Rather, start worrying, because, to someone you don't know, you give an impression of backwater, closed-minded, frustrated teen reject. Maybe in your (hopefully, future) line of work you don't need to communicate with anyone and that allows you to hatch these morbid thoughts, but still, you should worry about what kind of impression you give out. Or at least, realize you shouldn't speak up about how you feel on some topics.

Oh, and as for cooking, I was talking about my normal cooking, not cooking pre-made meals. The only pre-made stuff I use are some curry pastes, tika masala, tandori paste and similar oriental stuff I'd otherwise have no chance of obtaining. But I still stand by what I said. Cooking is not a school thing. Cooking is something you learn by yourself. Cooking is about not being lazy. You cook something for the first time, hell, all you really need to do is to wash and cut some meat, some vegetables you like, and some spices, throw them over some oil in the pot, and then stir it. After that really, everything else is a matter of imagination and routine. Hell, recepies are everywhere nowadays. Seriously, the only people who say they cannot cook are those who never cooked and think its some kind of mystical power. And that is seriously the fault of the parents. School cannot, and should not try and teach the child absolutely everything, otherwise the education system will drown itself in all the random shit. It doesn't need to teach you how to cook, it doesn't need to teach you how to tie your shoelaces, it doesn't need to teach you how to wash, dry, and iron your clothes, because, really, those things are essential and easy enough to learn at home.

Anyways, since I'm out for the next week, this is probably my last post here. Reply or not, but at least, this time, think about what I said, instead of feeling obliged to respond and writing a bunch of knee-jerk nonsense just for the shake of writing it.