Proposed Game: Desire and the Dead (Tome)

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Post by koz »

Avoraciopoctules wrote:Looked at the Tome of Prowess rules on dungeons.wikia, and they seem unfinished. Also going to mean more complexity in all the NPC stats.

I find myself tempted to go with my very lazy skill houserules for this game. They go as follows:
1. You have the same skill list as in regular 3.x
2. For each skill, if it looks like something your character would be good at, give max ranks. If it looks like something your character would be competent at, give a number that reflects how well you think they should do with it.
3. Try and keep things reasonable.
Excellent. Will be updating Alice to reflect this.

Also, could you put all your rulings in the first post of this thread? It'll make it much easier to refer to later/during construction, which some of us are still in the middle of.
Last edited by koz on Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Well, Needleteeth is shaping up. However, aside from throwing some stats down, 1 feat, and three levels in Rogue, I'm not sure what else to do in terms of direction with the build.

Aside from Product of Infernal Dalliance... I'm not really sure what other two feats to get. Either Weapon Finess and TWF; or the Skill feats for Move Silently and Hide Ghost Step, and [whatever]. Any advice?
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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Mister_Sinister wrote:
Avoraciopoctules wrote:Looked at the Tome of Prowess rules on dungeons.wikia, and they seem unfinished. Also going to mean more complexity in all the NPC stats.

I find myself tempted to go with my very lazy skill houserules for this game. They go as follows:
1. You have the same skill list as in regular 3.x
2. For each skill, if it looks like something your character would be good at, give max ranks. If it looks like something your character would be competent at, give a number that reflects how well you think they should do with it.
3. Try and keep things reasonable.
Excellent. Will be updating Alice to reflect this.

Also, could you put all your rulings in the first post of this thread? It'll make it much easier to refer to later/during construction, which some of us are still in the middle of.
Very well. Next big chunk of free time I've got, I'll try editing together an sblock of houserules so far. It seems fairly likely that I'll have it at some point tomorrow.
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Post by koz »

Judging__Eagle wrote:Well, Needleteeth is shaping up. However, aside from throwing some stats down, 1 feat, and three levels in Rogue, I'm not sure what else to do in terms of direction with the build.

Aside from Product of Infernal Dalliance... I'm not really sure what other two feats to get. Either Weapon Finess and TWF; or the Skill feats for Move Silently and Hide Ghost Step, and [whatever]. Any advice?
TWF and WF are designed to generate a melee blender. As you can probably see, there is absolutely no shortage of melee monsters here. I would suggest the [Skill] feat build - the more you can bring to us that way, the better, in my opinion. A ranged rogue would actually be preferable - toss flasks at people, since ranged support is highly limited in this party.

My suggestion would be Ghost Step and TWF, so you can hide, then ambush people and flask-rape them.
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Post by Prak »

Hey Av. I'm looking at your Pyromantic Dabbler feat, it'd get me a couple attack options, namely produce flame. Would that be ok?

Also, what qualifies as a minor item when looking at spell like abilities? 1-3rd level spells?

What I'm looking at are Use-Activated bracers of Darkbolt (BoVD) and Blade of Pain and Fear(LM) (one bracer each, if acceptable) for always available attack options.

Darkbolt would do 1d8 (half cold, half untyped) per caster level as a ranged touch, Blade of Pain and Fear does 1d6 plus 1 per 2 caster levels untyped damage as a melee touch attack. RAW says str doesn't apply to damage (presumably because it's not an actual sword, though I'd much prefer if the bracer created basically a mindblade with those stats, something my character held).

Would those be ok as minor objects?
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Post by ubernoob »

You can still power attack with the blade of pain and fear. Since it's a touch attack, you should be able to toss down 1d6+1(base damage from the spell)+4(power attack) damage that's more reliable and generally better in every way than picking up a +1 longsword.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Prak_Anima wrote:Hey Av. I'm looking at your Pyromantic Dabbler feat, it'd get me a couple attack options, namely produce flame. Would that be ok?
Yes.
Prak_Anima wrote:Also, what qualifies as a minor item when looking at spell like abilities? 1-3rd level spells?
Depends on the spell. Healing and direct damage are generally fine. Enlarge/Reduce Person are fine. Mage Armor, Shield and Flame Blade are all examples of useful, but not overpowering magic. If it's something as weak as Bless, I may make it work on a Swift rather than a Standard action. I will be somewhat annoyed at having to track fiddly +1 bonuses, though.

Web, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Summon Monster 2, Grease, and so on are all examples of things that would be use-limited if viable at all at this level.
Prak_Anima wrote:What I'm looking at are Use-Activated bracers of Darkbolt (BoVD) and Blade of Pain and Fear(LM) (one bracer each, if acceptable) for always available attack options.

Darkbolt would do 1d8 (half cold, half untyped) per caster level as a ranged touch, Blade of Pain and Fear does 1d6 plus 1 per 2 caster levels untyped damage as a melee touch attack. RAW says str doesn't apply to damage (presumably because it's not an actual sword, though I'd much prefer if the bracer created basically a mindblade with those stats, something my character held).

Would those be ok as minor objects?
So, a Standard action to shoot something comparable to a Fire Mage's attack action? Acceptable. The second one is fine as well, since there are plenty of other ways to get touch attacks at this point, and my understanding is that it takes a Standard action to create and cannot be discarded without ending the effect. In fact, those seem great enough drawbacks that I am fine just treating it like a normal weapon for the purposes of Strength bonus. You can reflavor it into making a sword of force or whatever if you want.

Speaking of which, someone mentioned a flask rogue. Here's a minor magic item that may fill that niche:

Elemental Rod: This ebony rod has a colored gem at the end which the wielder can channel their will through to fire energy rays. This is an attack action, and the rays go out to Short range. The rays deal 1d6+DEX mod Fire, Cold, Lightning, or Acid damage. Switching between damage types is a move action.
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Post by ubernoob »

Avoraciopoctules wrote:Depends on the spell. Healing and direct damage are generally fine. Enlarge/Reduce Person are fine.
A continual enlarge person effect would be ok in an item form? I wouldn't want one this level, but at level 5 or so I'd be wanting something like that.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

ubernoob wrote:
Avoraciopoctules wrote:Depends on the spell. Healing and direct damage are generally fine. Enlarge/Reduce Person are fine.
A continual enlarge person effect would be ok in an item form? I wouldn't want one this level, but at level 5 or so I'd be wanting something like that.
You'd have to use a standard action to activate it, and it would wear off. But I could certainly stick something better than that near the end of the module. It wouldn't stack with an Enlargement Soulmeld, though it could free up that slot for something else.

==================

First draft index of houserules so far:

EDIT:

Houserules So Far:

General Combat:
Combat is going to be streamlined. Ideally, players would post their general tactics, and I'd advance the combat until the tactical situation changed. If the PCs are all high-AC warriors, I'll probably just describe them fighting off the Hive gangers pretty much effortlessly, not taking a single scratch.
Custom Material:
I'm not banning anything specifically. If you want to play one of the many homebrew classes floating around the Den, you are welcome to. I'd personally probably grab Koumei's Sohei or Frank's Soulborn if I were playing in this, maybe grab some of my Mystic Dilettante feats. Power creep is only an issue if it means the PCs can easily take on things like the two NPCs mentioned above. But being practically unhittable or throwing out a bunch of attacks that each kill a mook is fine. Throwing out a save or lose that wipes a routine encounter is fine.
Ability Scores:
Pick whatever ability scores fit your character concept. I'd prefer that you not take 17s or 18s, though, since that's going to put you dramatically over the attributes of all the opponents you face. If you decide that your PC should have all 16s, that is perfectly okay.
Initiative and post frequency:
I go with "Them and Us" initiative. In combat, PCs go first unless they are being ambushed. Any action order.

If you don't post for a while, I or another player will take over your PC.
Skills:

I find myself tempted to go with my very lazy skill houserules for this game. They go as follows:
1. You have the same skill list as in regular 3.x
2. For each skill, if it looks like something your character would be good at, give max ranks. If it looks like something your character would be competent at, give a number that reflects how well you think they should do with it.
3. Try and keep things reasonable.


Knowledge Creation

Sometimes, a PC may wish to add something to the game world which is not specified (such a city, organization, place, event, or anything similar) or has not been mentioned before. Characters can use the Knowledge skill to generate such content.

Check: The player who wishes to add the content calls an appropriate Knowledge skill, depending on the content that he or she seeks to add (sometimes, multiple skills may be appropriate here). The DC of the check varies, and is set by the DM based on how plausible it sounds, as well as how well it fits with the world as a whole. If the check succeeds, the given fact is true, the given place or individual exists, etc. On a failed check, the given fact is false, the given individual doesn't exist etc, or, on occasion, a given fact is true, but in an unexpected way.

Example: A player wants to generate a thieves' guild in a city that he is going to, and specifies that he happens to know someone in it. The DM considers this quite plausible, and sets a DC of 20. The player decides that Knowledge (local) is most appropriate skill, but only gets a result of 18. The DM now has two options - he either declares that the thieves' guild doesn't exist, that the guild exists, but the PC doesn't know anyone there, or that the guild exists, and the PC does know someone there, but that someone hates the PC for some reason, or any similar permutation.

Action: As this attempts to answer a question about the world as a whole (even if it never came up previously), this action takes an insignificant amount of time.

Try Again: You cannot usually retry very similar requests, even on different skills. However, it is possible to retry this if used for something significantly new or different.

Special: You cannot use this ability untrained.
Alignment:
Allegiances

Alignment has never worked, in any iteration, and likely never will. As a result, the alignment system is being ditched wholesale. Instead, characters may have up to three Allegiances, which represent individuals, organizations or ideals and concepts that those characters believe in as people. Those who hold Allegiances aren't necessarily totally faithful and obedient – they may well interpret them as they choose, especially when conflicts within their allegiance choices arise. However, a character who has an Allegiance indicates that this person, organization or idea matters to him or her a great deal.

It is possible, though rare, to have characters that have no Allegiances whatsoever. Such individuals have either not made up their minds about the world and their place in it, or are the ultimate loners. While this is certainly possible (and, in some cases, even valid) as a choice, it is fairly rare, and any player who wishes to make a character with no Allegiances at all should justify his or her choice thoroughly.

If a character has multiple Allegiances, they should be ranked in terms of priority. The first Allegiance a character has is always the most important, followed by the second-most-important, and finally by the third-most-important. No character may have more than three Allegiances – while this does not mean a character cannot hold more individuals, philosophies or organizations in high regard, they will not necessarily drive his or her actions, influence their thinking considerably enough, or simply have enough time to divide between them all to make all of them as important as their allegiances.

Allegiances can and do change during gameplay; this is both natural and normal. However, changing an Allegiance is essentially a very big event in a character's life – especially if the Allegiance being changed is a primary one. This represents the character totally changing his or her point of view about themselves and the world around them, and thus, should not be done lightly or frequently. If a player often changes Allegiances, it is quite possible that those Allegiances were never very important to the character to begin with.
HP Rolls:
Let's maximize HP for PCs. Since we may be running combat in several-round chunks at a time, PCs should be more resistant to dying to normal weapon damage.
Special combat maneuvers:
Avoraciopoctules wrote:
ubernoob wrote:I'm tweaking my concept to fit a bit better with my ideas of how this character would behave, and I came up with a problem.

How the fuck are the overrun rules supposed to work? As written, it seems to be that you can't combine them with charging (which is stupid) and if the enemy doesn't get out of the way you use up your standard action to overrun them (instead of trampling them as you move). It seems with the 3.5 rules you can't overrun more than one person (due to it taking a standard action to overrun).

Can we make overrun just be part of movement or something that isn't headache inducing?
Sure. You can try to move through an enemy's space. If they don't let you, you can make an opposed Grapple check. If you win, they are shoved aside and you can move through. They normally get an AoO, but not if you've got the Edge.
Character Wealth:
You start with a number of minor magical items equal to your level. Since you've got a CR 3 character with you, I'm willing to allow them an extra item of their own. So you could pick the magic barding or the horseshoes, and spend one of your own 2 or 3 items if you wanted both.

You can also have a "reasonable" number of consumables and nonmagic items. If you want a bandolier with 6 healing potions in it, fine. If you want a half-dozen oils that set your sword on fire for an encounter, fine. A masterwork longbow is also fine.

You start with "some money". You can rent a room at an inn without worrying about going broke, but you can't afford to commission a fancy new magic thinblade yet. You can hire some thugs to watch your back, but you can't pay a random level 5 wizard to lob a stinking cloud through someone's window in exchange for shiny golds. Throw too much money around, and you may go down to "not very much money". This is not fun, so I'll probably warn you first.
Last edited by Avoraciopoctules on Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TarkisFlux »

Avoraciopoctules wrote:Looked at the Tome of Prowess rules on dungeons.wikia, and they seem unfinished. Also going to mean more complexity in all the NPC stats.
Yeah, they're incomplete at present over there. And they will result in a lot more PC/NPC complexity. But besides that, integration with the tomes is an interesting challenge that you probably don't even care about because tome classes are setup in such a way as to not miss the majority of the stuff it hands out, especially if you're allowing the majority of community skill feats.

Anyway, babble aside, thanks for checkin it out and giving it consideration for your pbp.
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Post by Cynic »

is there still a spot open?

If so?

I'd like to bring about

Thurgood "bounce" McManus

Thurgood's father was a man. A dwarf even. Except when he went and screwed all that up by being a bastard soldier who brutally assaulted and raped an Erinyes during a quick raid into baator. Dad vanished in the thick of the night and Mommy erinyes reared the child with the sole purpose of killing the father. After being berated all his life for causing pain and suffering for his mother, he finally set out to go kill his father. Finding himself, an inept seeker and fighter. He found a job in one of the Hive taverns as a bouncer. Seemed the best place to find him. So far all he knows is the dwarf was named McManus. So he recently adopted that as his last name just so someone may remark on the strangeness and give him a lead...

As a vermillion red aasimar who looks very much like a dwarf except for the skin color, and the useless non-working tiny stumpy wings on his back. He works with a length of rope or just a crowbar. Grappling, tripping, or generally causing as much interference as possible.

--
stats coming soon.
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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Cynic wrote:is there still a spot open?
Players with PCs that look more or less finished:
Mister_Sinister (Warrior)
ubernoob (Soulborn)

Players who have expressed an interest, but not posted a complete character:
Prak_Anima (Conduit)
Akula (Summoner)
Kaelik (Totemist)
Nicklance (Undead goon of some kind)
Judging__Eagle (Rogue)
Cynic (you)

====================

I think it would be best to cap the game at 4-6 players. However, that means that there are still 4 slots left.
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Post by Kaelik »

Well if there were any not shitty feats for casters, I'd be fine.

I'll just play without feats since feats don't actually give anything to non Warrior types in Tome games.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

What about Tome [Metamagic] feats? I know many of the ones people have posted are ridiculously awesome, but they are out there. There are also a number of [Skill] feats that give decent utility abilities.
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Post by Kaelik »

Avoraciopoctules wrote:What about Tome [Metamagic] feats? I know many of the ones people have posted are ridiculously awesome, but they are out there. There are also a number of [Skill] feats that give decent utility abilities.
Allow me to sum up every single skill feat made for Tome stuff:

Diplomacy, Use a different stat for Diplmoacy, more diplomacy, another stat is diplomacy, leadership, leadership, leadership, use diplomacy for leadership, get a trivial bonus to spot or listen and be able to hear through walls at level 15.

And, see how totemists do not actually cast spells, so they cannot use the ridiculous metamagic feats that are either incredibly crappy or incredibly awesome.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Kaelik wrote:Well if there were any not shitty feats for casters, I'd be fine.

I'll just play without feats since feats don't actually give anything to non Warrior types in Tome games.
Most of the defensive combat feats will be just as useful to a caster (BAB 1 to 2) as to a warrior (BAB 3 to 5).
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Post by ubernoob »

Avoraciopoctules wrote:You'd have to use a standard action to activate it, and it would wear off. But I could certainly stick something better than that near the end of the module. It wouldn't stack with an Enlargement Soulmeld, though it could free up that slot for something else.
Since enlarge person lasts min/level and I presume the item would be at will, that would effectively free up a slot (assuming my character isn't ambushed in his sleep). And yes, freeing up a slot was my whole point of asking (and that won't even be a consideration until level 5).
Kaelik wrote:Well if there were any not shitty feats for casters, I'd be fine.

I'll just play without feats since feats don't actually give anything to non Warrior types in Tome games.
Danger sense, great fortitude, iron will, and lightning reflexes are all good on their own.

Master of Terror + Menacing Demeanor (move action intimidate for shaken condition => standard action use save based attack) is good if you are wanting a boost to offense.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Kaelik wrote:
Avoraciopoctules wrote:What about Tome [Metamagic] feats? I know many of the ones people have posted are ridiculously awesome, but they are out there. There are also a number of [Skill] feats that give decent utility abilities.
Allow me to sum up every single skill feat made for Tome stuff:

Diplomacy, Use a different stat for Diplmoacy, more diplomacy, another stat is diplomacy, leadership, leadership, leadership, use diplomacy for leadership, get a trivial bonus to spot or listen and be able to hear through walls at level 15.
O RLY

Looking at Tome0.7r52.pdf:

Acquirer’s Eye [Skill]
Automagically know whether something is masterwork or magic

Acrobatic [Skill]
Expertise has slightly bigger numbers

Alertness [Skill]
Listen checks as a free action 1/round, no distraction penalties

Animal Affinity [Skill]
Action cost for ordering your dogs around reduced

Battlefield Surgeon [Skill]
Action cost for first aid reduced

Combat Casting [Skill]
Take 10 on concentration and caster level checks

Con Artist [Skill]
Extra resistance to truth magic

Cryptographer [Skill]
Learn what spells are on a scroll with a skill check

Deft Fingers [Skill]
Limited auto-sneak attack

Dreadful Demeanor [Skill]
4: You can demoralize an opponent as a move action.

Expert Counterfeiter [Skill]
4: When creating a forgery, you roll twice and take the better result.

Ghost Step [Skill]
you are harder to track

Investigator [Skill]
You get Trapfinding
You can search a 10 foot square with a full-round action

Item Master [Skill]
4: You don’t suffer mishaps with magic items.

Legendary Wrangler
use a rope in place of various weapons and replace your BAB with your skill ranks for specific attack forms

Many-Faced [Skill]
4: When creating a disguise, you roll twice and take the better result.

=====
And a couple pages worth to go.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

ubernoob wrote:
Avoraciopoctules wrote:You'd have to use a standard action to activate it, and it would wear off. But I could certainly stick something better than that near the end of the module. It wouldn't stack with an Enlargement Soulmeld, though it could free up that slot for something else.
Since enlarge person lasts min/level and I presume the item would be at will, that would effectively free up a slot (assuming my character isn't ambushed in his sleep). And yes, freeing up a slot was my whole point of asking (and that won't even be a consideration until level 5).
Very good then. Since the spell does last for minutes, I might as well make the item something that is just switched on or off by the time you get it. That means less bookkeeping for everyone.
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Post by Kaelik »

Avoraciopoctules wrote:List of feats that don't give me anything
Looking at Tome0.7r52.pdf:

Acquirer’s Eye [Skill]
Automagically know whether something is masterwork or magic

Acrobatic [Skill]
Expertise has slightly bigger numbers

Alertness [Skill]
Listen checks as a free action 1/round, no distraction penalties

Animal Affinity [Skill]
Action cost for ordering your dogs around reduced

Battlefield Surgeon [Skill]
Action cost for first aid reduced

Combat Casting [Skill]
Take 10 on concentration and caster level checks

Con Artist [Skill]
Extra resistance to truth magic

Cryptographer [Skill]
Learn what spells are on a scroll with a skill check

Deft Fingers [Skill]
Limited auto-sneak attack

Dreadful Demeanor [Skill]
4: You can demoralize an opponent as a move action.

Expert Counterfeiter [Skill]
4: When creating a forgery, you roll twice and take the better result.

Ghost Step [Skill]
you are harder to track

Investigator [Skill]
You get Trapfinding
You can search a 10 foot square with a full-round action

Item Master [Skill]
4: You don’t suffer mishaps with magic items.

Legendary Wrangler
use a rope in place of various weapons and replace your BAB with your skill ranks for specific attack forms

Many-Faced [Skill]
4: When creating a disguise, you roll twice and take the better result.

=====
And a couple pages worth to go.
And do you see how all of those require me to invest skill ranks somewhere that sucks and still don't give me anything?

I mean really "don't suffer mishaps" is something I already do automatically.

"Throw a Rope" is something worse than what I do.

If I actually had skill points to spare, Trapfinding might be okay, but when I compare that to "you double your damage and other things" or "You get to stun people." something like "know whether items are magical(even though you already do)" or "take ten on stuff you don't do" is not worth the time to look up the feat, much less burn a feat and 7 skill points.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Congratulations, you have discovered one of several reasons for the following post:
Avoraciopoctules wrote:I find myself tempted to go with my very lazy skill houserules for this game. They go as follows:
1. You have the same skill list as in regular 3.x
2. For each skill, if it looks like something your character would be good at, give max ranks. If it looks like something your character would be competent at, give a number that reflects how well you think they should do with it.
3. Try and keep things reasonable.
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Post by ubernoob »

Kaelik wrote:
Avoraciopoctules wrote:List of feats that don't give me anything
Looking at Tome0.7r52.pdf:

Acquirer’s Eye [Skill]
Automagically know whether something is masterwork or magic

Acrobatic [Skill]
Expertise has slightly bigger numbers

Alertness [Skill]
Listen checks as a free action 1/round, no distraction penalties

Animal Affinity [Skill]
Action cost for ordering your dogs around reduced

Battlefield Surgeon [Skill]
Action cost for first aid reduced

Combat Casting [Skill]
Take 10 on concentration and caster level checks

Con Artist [Skill]
Extra resistance to truth magic

Cryptographer [Skill]
Learn what spells are on a scroll with a skill check

Deft Fingers [Skill]
Limited auto-sneak attack

Dreadful Demeanor [Skill]
4: You can demoralize an opponent as a move action.

Expert Counterfeiter [Skill]
4: When creating a forgery, you roll twice and take the better result.

Ghost Step [Skill]
you are harder to track

Investigator [Skill]
You get Trapfinding
You can search a 10 foot square with a full-round action

Item Master [Skill]
4: You don’t suffer mishaps with magic items.

Legendary Wrangler
use a rope in place of various weapons and replace your BAB with your skill ranks for specific attack forms

Many-Faced [Skill]
4: When creating a disguise, you roll twice and take the better result.

=====
And a couple pages worth to go.
And do you see how all of those require me to invest skill ranks somewhere that sucks and still don't give me anything?

I mean really "don't suffer mishaps" is something I already do automatically.

"Throw a Rope" is something worse than what I do.

If I actually had skill points to spare, Trapfinding might be okay, but when I compare that to "you double your damage and other things" or "You get to stun people." something like "know whether items are magical(even though you already do)" or "take ten on stuff you don't do" is not worth the time to look up the feat, much less burn a feat and 7 skill points.
Hey, there were totally two feats there that were ok. You're even charisma based, so should be able to afford intimidate with arbitrary stats.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

ubernoob wrote:Hey, there were totally two feats there that were ok. You're even charisma based, so should be able to afford intimidate with arbitrary stats.
Yes, I should revise my list to "diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy under a different skill, leadership, leadership, diplomacy as leadership, you scare people."

But since I don't want Leadership or Diplomacy or scaring people... It's still not particularly great.

Bottom line, if I move action shaken everyone, and so do you, and so does everyone, then there is no reason to even fight enemies not immune to fear, so everyone will be.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob »

Kaelik wrote:Bottom line, if I move action shaken everyone, and so do you, and so does everyone, then there is no reason to even fight enemies not immune to fear, so everyone will be.
My character is pretty much melee only. Only time I can possibly intimidate people is if I'm giving up either my bite attack or my sword attacks. And an enemy has to start adjacent to me for it to work.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Can anybody point to any good feats for the Totemist in 3.5 D&D?

EDIT: Even high level ones, got a second Totemist going at 15.
Last edited by Kaelik on Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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