Right, so I know O/NWod is bad but...

[Koumei]

Pulling away and growling at them should do it. Try to loom, too. Though for as long as we've known him, my dog has never tried to mount anything. He's... not a dominant creature. He "surrenders" to my mum's younger female dog. Though that might just be the "I'll be the defender, now attack me! JUDO FLIP!" type of playing.

Anyway, seriously, can we fucking end the discussion on dogfucking, paedophilia and the like? I don't even want to know why Prak is so interested in this and keeps bringing it up.

And re: the strawman thing. You'd be better off mentioning the fact that they outright state sorcerers are a result of dragon-on-man action, and chromatics can't take human form. But we know how that works: "fine, somewhere down the line that happened and I don't want to know their names, let alone the details of how it happened."

[RandomCasualty2]

Animals can't consent to sex because they're non intelligent and every time an animal has sex, it's rape. Wow... where do you guys get these ideas.

It's just silly.

Nobody would think twice if you killed the wolf in a brutal painful fashion, but make it feel good by having sex with it... oh god, you twisted evil soul.

Yeah, we all know that furry sex is disgusting, I don't disagree, but you're talking about a werewolf here, who is part wolf. The fact that he's fucking wolves doesn't really strike me as being all that bad.

[A Man In Black]

Derailed by dogfucking. A new low.

[Jilocasin]

Derailed by dogfucking. A new low.

I didn't witness it, but I get the impression from some of these posts that this has happened before. It's certainly a low.

[Prak]

Anyway, seriously, can we fucking end the discussion on dogfucking, paedophilia and the like? I don't even want to know why Prak is so interested in this and keeps bringing it up.

Because Frank bringing up the dogrape thing again amuses me.

And re: the strawman thing. You'd be better off mentioning the fact that they outright state sorcerers are a result of dragon-on-man action, and chromatics can't take human form. But we know how that works: "fine, somewhere down the line that happened and I don't want to know their names, let alone the details of how it happened."

They can, however, cast arcane spells, like Polymorph. So really dragons have two options, be cradle robbers (they get caster levels sufficient to throw down polymorph in the upper age categories) or sex up humanoids in with their natural gear at a time roughly shortly after they've hatched.

[A Man In Black]

They can, however, cast arcane spells, like Polymorph. So really dragons have two options, be cradle robbers (they get caster levels sufficient to throw down polymorph in the upper age categories) or sex up humanoids in with their natural gear at a time roughly shortly after they've hatched.

What part of "fine, somewhere down the line that happened and I don't want to know their names, let alone the details of how it happened" is unclear?

[TheFlatline]

First of all, the only OWOD rules that count are Minds Eye Theater, because those were the only ones that even kind of worked.

The Bomb, and the eleventy billion ways to retest are the biggest problem with MET. The game was also never designed for ongoing, multi-year, super power level chronicles.

Interestingly enough, the live-action Mage system, with it's funky open-ended magic, tends to have the least amount of mechanical problems. No bomb, no real win all ties that I can see, and retests are limited to overbids and abilities, so that should move fairly quickly.

Otherwise, it was a quick and dirty system that worked pretty well and introduced LARPs to a lot of people. nWOD's Mind's Eye Theater is such a joke (selling us 60 fucking dollars for core MET and vampire MET. Again.) that the Cam just recently started supporting oWOD's MET system officially now.

I heard of one nWOD MET game down in LA that wasn't Camarilla sanctioned, it lasted a few months, and then sputtered out. Every other nWOD live action game usually consists of "yeah we tried that for a few months and decided to go back to oWOD".

[Echoes]

Wait, Mage lacks retests? Time 2 (Divinations) is the single best Basic power ever printed in MET, period (although a few others come close). Every single challenge will be retested at least twice, and possibly more, depending on Merits and what other powers are on hand.

The single biggest problem with MET mechanics is ties. The second biggest problem is the lack of trait normalizations. After that, stacking retests probably take third place, although I would contend that Aegis belongs there as well. This is all, of course, in regards to combat, because everywhere else it pretty much doesn't matter. You magic tea-party all non-combat, and anywhere a challenge is thrown is pretty much going to be combat shortly, or already dealt with.

[Echoes]

Wait, Mage lacks retests? Time 2 (Divinations) is the single best Basic power ever printed in MET, period (although a few others come close). Every single challenge will be retested at least twice, and possibly more, depending on Merits and what other powers are on hand.

The single biggest problem with MET mechanics is ties. The second biggest problem is the lack of trait normalizations. After that, stacking retests probably take third place, although I would contend that Aegis belongs there as well. This is all, of course, in regards to combat, because everywhere else it pretty much doesn't matter. You magic tea-party all non-combat, and anywhere a challenge is thrown is pretty much going to be combat shortly, or already dealt with.

[souran]

First of all, the only OWOD rules that count are Minds Eye Theater, because those were the only ones that even kind of worked.

-Username17

I call Shenannigans. Pen and Paper vampire/mage/werewolf were played way more than minds eye. This is equivalent to saying that because the american league has more power hitting/pitching so the national league doesn't count (or the other way if you think that the DH is unfair).

Either way, you cannot say "we are only considering half of the OWOD shitsack ruleset because its the ruleset that geeks used to get laid in the 90s" as though that forgives them from having written a dirty abortion of a ruleset.

Seriously OWOD is BELOW a rifts/palladium level of playability. So to act like NWOD is this massive betrayal of everything white wolf ever stood for is silly. With OWOD they stood for a game that existed because some kids couldn't figure out how to read/were to high to read the fucking THAC0 chart, got pissed and decided they could play a game like D&D with yatzee as the god damn dice mechanic.

Also, Minds Eye before NWOD was fucking joke. I know even fewer people who actually played by/used the rules to minds eye theater than I did with pen and paper OWOD. People would violate the no weapon props constantly, and guess what! It leads to exactly the sort of bullshit/very nearly calling the cops you would think it would!!!

Basically without a convention setting minds eye was basically a way for geeks to dress up in goth clothing and sleep with the hot goth chick that they sometimes saw at hot topic. Jokes on you though: she slept with all your MET playing friends too.

[koz]

Souran, I'm not sure how you can claim that oWoD Vampire is less functional or playable than Rifts. In all seriousness, especially when you get to Revised, the rules are considerably better than Rifts in the comprehendability department.

[endersdouble]

Seriously, as much as I hate defending dogfucking, because as someone who's not a wolf half the time it's a disturbing thought, I think you're imposing human values on a seriously nonhuman population.


I'm not one for cultural relativism (or fucking dogs; I can't emphasize this enough!) but wolves are not human. Human rules about sex don't necessarily apply. When you add that I believe wolves, like most species, only have sex when the feamle is in heat and trying to conceive, a lot of the deceit issue evaporates, IMHO.

Why am I defending dogfucking? Sigh. Seriously, can't we play biological werewolves without you think we're terrible people, Frank?

[souran]

Souran, I'm not sure how you can claim that oWoD Vampire is less functional or playable than Rifts. In all seriousness, especially when you get to Revised, the rules are considerably better than Rifts in the comprehendability department.

Even revised was busted in too many places to count. I will admit that the writers for white-wolf apperently knew english and where not working to translate satanic runes into an rpg like the rifts people were, and that alone probably accounts for the differance in understandablility.

However, even revised vampire worked basically only through DM fiat. Thats what drove the game. The ability for both the target number needed on each die to shift AND for the play to collect dice pool adders alone reduced the game to little more than "game master says." Honestly, becuase the game master is setting both axis of the dice roll at the time of each roll with only a modicum of guidance from the rules text means that he is basically announcing if you succeed or fail totally. It actually serves to REMOVE all the drama from the dice.

Then there are other rules elements that are unplayable. Such as the aformentioned "You are a crazy person" Vampires, the "You are actually a wolf and gained the ability to sometimes turn human" werewolves and basically the entire magic rules for mage.

the games are supposed to have morality play elements but rules like humanity are are so screwy and usually do little more than turn vampires into the character Sheldon from Big Bang theory. On the other hand that results in most people attempting to kill/taser the player playing the afflicted character in a way that breaks up friendships.

Honestly, vampire was a way to make sure your friends ended up pissed at you.

So where do I think its playability is: right around rifts.

[koz]

I will admit that the writers for white-wolf apperently knew english and where not working to translate satanic runes into an rpg like the rifts people were, and that alone probably accounts for the differance in understandablility.

This is the single best description of Rifts I have ever seen anyone make: Satanic runes translated into an RPG by people who don't know English.

[Koumei]

I've had a lot of fun playing Rifts, and cannot say the same for xWoD. So while I'll readily admit it is an awful ruleset (and not a great setting either), at least you can have a laugh with it. So it already has one over White Wolf in that respect.

[Prak]

I don't know, I had a lot of fun playing OWoD, though the most fun I ever had was when the ST ran "all supernaturals allowed" games and we basically functioned as a super covert metahuman team, or the last chronicle where we wound up overthrowing the garou nation so everyone would get a fair shake. So, basically when we threw the world's "rules" out the window and did what we damn well pleased.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I've had a lot of fun playing Rifts, and cannot say the same for xWoD. So while I'll readily admit it is an awful ruleset (and not a great setting either), at least you can have a laugh with it. So it already has one over White Wolf in that respect.

I would love to try out TMNTs one time. I don't expect a balanced coherent game, but I think it would be pretty rad.

[Ganbare Gincun]

I've had a lot of fun playing Rifts, and cannot say the same for xWoD. So while I'll readily admit it is an awful ruleset (and not a great setting either), at least you can have a laugh with it. So it already has one over White Wolf in that respect.

I've had fun playing in both oWoD and Rifts campaigns before. *shrug*

[magnuskn]

All this talk of "dog-fucking" made me make an account here. Oh, well, I guess Frank will saw off my dick with a spoon for trying to correct him on that topic.

IMO, applying human standards to Werewolfes, which in the WtA are half-spiritual beings who definitely are not human ( seriously, check out the "victory conditions" for the Apocalypse storyline: Creation survives, but human civilization is utterly destroyed ), neither physically nor mentally, is not the way to go.

Although there is a case to be made for Franks assertion that the writers of WtA required you to be a horrible person: Since, as noted before, wolves are only "in the mood" when they are in heat, Werewolves have a supernatural means to, ahem, get them hot. Which also works on humans. So, yeah, the designers encouraged the players to play date rapists.

---

As for the topic of how much fun playing oWod was, in my group of friends Vampire was mostly played as an over-the-top action game, including silly Camarilla Tszismze (sp?) lugging around sea-man chests with chain guns in them.

But the most fun I've had with it was in a long-running WtA campaign, where the GM cross-overed the the whole thing with Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And then D&D mages from extra-dimensional Atlantis invaded the world. It got weirder after that... My favourite memory from that campaign: Stealing a nuclear bomb from Sunnydales military base and chugging and remote-detonating it through a Gate to the dimension from where the Necromancer faction of the mages came from.

[Prak]

so apparently the best way to have fun in WoD is to play supernatural A Team.

That's kind of awesome, really....

[Koumei]

I would love to try out TMNTs one time. I don't expect a balanced coherent game, but I think it would be pretty rad.

Oh, absolutely. With all supplements for maximum unbalanced and hilarious bullshit. Like that one Frank mentioned, with the magical ninja mutant space wolverines with spaceships.

[magnuskn]

so apparently the best way to have fun in WoD is to play supernatural A Team.

That's kind of awesome, really....

Definitely the best way. Ditch all that "personal horror" crap and go hog-wild. The world suddenly gets much more fun.

The whole "date-rape" power thing stems from the personal horror thingy, too... since Werewolves innately make people and animals uneasy with their mere presence, they "need" that power to pro-create outside of their own extended families. So, yeah.

[mean_liar]

Remember kids, dog-rape is awful and horrible.

Murder is a-okay and not even worth discussing because hey, murder. Whatevs. Rape though, this is a horrible crime. Killing is fine. Mental domination is good-to-go, unless you use that opportunity to look at their gentials, and then you're a dirty dirty dirty. However, getting a gang of youths to butcher you while you're dominated, again, is fine, unless those youths are underage AND murdering without parental consent.

[violence in the media]

Ah, we're getting into the sex and violence double-standard now? Awesome.

[Username17]

Ah, we're getting into the sex and violence double-standard now? Awesome.

Yes. Apparently. The fact that there are good reasons to murder someone but no good reasons to rape someone means that violence can potentially be excusable. Dog raping cannot be.

-Username17