You must use as much oil as possible. For the children.

[Prak]

Ignoring the whole "You don't belong here! We're Team USA!" bullshit...

That's not what Count said, and you know it, dick. He said "Hey, there are a bunch of americans here, and it's run out of America, so we're going to talk about our political system and it's not as awesome as people think. IF you don't like it, THEN you can gtfo"

also, as for the violence... It may not be a solution, but the thought of it certainly makes some reptilian part of our brain feel better... When I was living with my last gf, and wandering around at night, trying to get us some food (we were fuck broke. Her pay from her job went to paying rent, and I was unemployed), I very frequently thought about how much I'd love to rob the bank executives that put America in the financial crisis it's in.

[Maj]

However, again, do you see Chinese or Indians calling for Americans to be lynched for being rich decadent bastards in the present day? Of course not. That's because we live in civilized times. Where we RESPECT each other's property.

I think I saw some Arabs around here a little bit ago...

Again, why resort to violence in a country with elections? Why resort to violence in a country where a black man can be elected president?

Personally, I see a lot of liberties in this country taken away by corporate interest. And the government doesn't seem to be really doing much about it except getting it on with those corporations. There are a lot of people who feel that their vote doesn't count because the people running are just in it for themselves and their supporting corporate lobbies, and there's no real way to combat the tsunami of wealth imbalance.

While our poor people may be making the equivalent of a fortune in the Philippines (and I admit that if I do outsource my life to SE Asia, then I will have a much better standard of living than I do right now), the cost of living here is correspondingly higher. And the struggle is no less infuriating. Sometimes I actually think it's worse to be on the verge of being able to have security - there's still plenty of bad stuff that can happen to you to make your life worse (like becoming homeless), but you're not in a position of safety yet, either. It's very, very stressful.

Per capita GDP has nothing to do with how we live.

Amen. 42.7% of people in the US make less than $25,000 each year. 28.2% Make between $25,000 - $50,000. 12.2% make between $50,000 - $75,000. 4.7% make between $75,000 - $100,000. And 5.6% make more than $100,000 each year.

The gap between the rich and the poor is becoming much more distinct, and the greater the divide, the worse off the country is going to be economically - people just won't have the purchasing power to support a growing economy.

Again, there are rich people, and there are poor people. This is the way civilizations are.

True. But a lot of people sort of feel like the government is pulling a "let them eat cake" moment. And really, as much as people elsewhere may live a life worse than mine, that doesn't really console me when it's time to pay the rent.

...Neither [Democrats nor Republicans] are very good at opposing [unethical businessmen] nationally (which is a shame).

Exactly.

You say you feel helpless.

I wish that I could quote the editorial my husband has written on this subject, but it has yet to be posted. If still applicable, I'll link to it as soon as it's posted tomorrow.

[Zinegata]

Affecting political change is hard. Not impossible luckily, but even getting your fellow citizens to give a damn about anything besides sports is arduous and not very rewarding. But it's fucking necessary in a democracy, to have a viable democracy you need more than just going to the polls every few years and casting a ballot.

Of course it's hard. Nobody ever said democracy was easy. But at least it's not a path that leads to people dying.

[Zinegata]

That's not what Count said, and you know it, dick.

After two straight veiled insults from Count before that (and that "Nobody has the right to question me because I work too hard!" tirade), bullshit.

Direct all "GTFO if you can't handle the heat" to HIM.

[Zinegata]

I think I saw some Arabs around here a little bit ago...

You mean the guys that you're trying to catch and send to Guantanamo and who even France, China, and Russia agrees are very bad people?

Which should honestly not be lumped together with Arabs as a whole, who are mostly good people.

Personally, I see a lot of liberties in this country taken away by corporate interest. And the government doesn't seem to be really doing much about it except getting it on with those corporations. There are a lot of people who feel that their vote doesn't count because the people running are just in it for themselves and their supporting corporate lobbies, and there's no real way to combat the tsunami of wealth imbalance.

Nobody is denying it sucks to be poor because of the actions of faceless corporations. Nobody is denying either that some corporations are run by the scum of the Earth.

But neither should be an excuse to advocate lawlessness and murder. Yeah, sure, we fantasize about blowing away evildoers all the time. But there's a line between a joke/fantasy and using your own personal poverty as justification for breaking the law. There are many, many other people around the world who are much poorer and don't resort to violence. While the American middle class may be shrinking, more than half of the population still qualify for it. In the Third World, we're lucky to have one in ten be middle class.

Especially when, again, America does have a pretty decent framework for resolving things without violence. Yet - except for your husband - I don't really see any of the people complaining here using that framework and instead press for a position where we "Lynch some CEOs!"

From a non-American perspective, this is honestly the exact sort of poison that kills of introspection and tolerance that Lago was talking about. It's no different from Teabaggers or Rednecks who go "The South Will Rise Again!"

But, hey, if it's a liberal position, the Den seems to love it even if it involves murder.

[Crissa]

Is there really no difference between pondering violence against a real evil vs advocating violence against an imagined one?

-Crissa

[Zinegata]

Is there really no difference between pondering violence against a real evil vs advocating violence against an imagined one?

-Crissa

Advocating violence and chaos against actual people is different from your two imaginary scenarios.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

That's not what Count said, and you know it, dick.

Well considering that I have recanted my previous assertion that violence is good, apologized, and thanked Zine for allowing me to see a different point of view and he's STILL railing me about my previous comments I'm thinking that he's no longer reading what I am saying anyway.

Since there's nothing I can say to make Zine update his debate with new info, I'm responding with image macros.

[Zinegata]

Well considering that I have recanted my previous assertion that violence is good, apologized, and thanked Zine for allowing me to see a different point of view and he's STILL railing me about my previous comments I'm thinking that he's no longer reading what I am saying anyway.

Really? You mean the "apology" that was directed at violence in the media, and you have merely used this entire incident to go "Hur Hur, I'm so much bigger of a man because I apologized."

Fuck you Count. You've issued no apology. You're saying sorry to The Den for having a stupid opinion. But you haven't apologized to me for attacking me for having to the temerity to make a moral stand that violence is bad.

Again, if you apologize, say so to the person. Not the fucking fourth wall. I have apologized to you. You merely claim you did and are milking it to look good.

I could very easily say "Hey, if you're in such dire poverty, why aren't you out working instead of arguing uselessly in a message board". But I haven't, because that would be the same of veiled insults you've used against me. And what you're doing now is the fourth veiled insult of this nature.

I'm not listening to what you say? Maybe it's because you're a fucking moron who doesn't realize that what you say is self-serving shit that's based on a lie.

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
It is a shame, because I liked this thread.
[/TGFBS]