[D&D 3.5] The Unconventional Wisdom of the Den

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:47 am

souran wrote:
wotmaniac wrote:Just for emphasis, here's the actual excerpt from the DMG:
DMG wrote: The example prestige classes
are certainly not all encompassing or definitive. They
might not even be appropriate for your campaign. The
best prestige classes for your campaign are the ones
you tailor make yourself.
I don't know how much more definitive you can get.
Except this is total bullshit. You wouldn't accept anything so fucking general from a 4e statement.

Actually, that's bullshit. Unless you actually enjoy having everything spoon-fed to you -- in which case, sure.
The advent of PrCs was a totally new concept that was intended to give your character ultimate customization (I mean, sure, 2e had "class kits" and such, but that just barely scratched the surface of what was to come).
The actually wanted to give groups a model around which to let their imaginations run wild. Seriously, why have all the sand relegated to the "game world" box?
Just because you may want to play in a straight-jacket doesn't mean that the game giving you a "character" sandbox is bullshit.

Seriously -- this is similar to adventure modules.
I've never run a single adventure module in 16 years of DMing. I've looked at them; I've read them from time to time for a little inspiration; but I can't say that one has actually ever hit my table. Why? Because I prefer to run my own shit -- and that's what is actually expected to happen in the majority of games. So why do they keep pumping out the adventure modules with such regularity? Because they also realize that there are plenty of DMs out there that may not have either the time, energy, or imagination to make their own stuff.
And it's the same with PrCs. This is yet another element of the game where liberal use of imagination is encouraged, and even expected.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:04 am

@Schwarzkopf:
It's from an artist name Rocco. She did her own version of the face sets of the default characters in RPG Maker 2000. This is the male thief one.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:09 am

souran wrote: 3.x is a videogame were all the strategizing or player input happens before the game proper, like the Total War games or the afformentioned FFT.

That's...Not really how most video games work. There are plenty of video games where the bulk or entirety of tactical choices occur during the action, not before.

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:37 pm

Let's get something out of the way:

There's more ways to make a villain interesting than turning him in a glorificated cultist of Slaanesh. And frankly, as a company that wants to sell to teenagers and childrens, I wouldn't WANT that on my product, or even on a product with my official seal of approval (Free hint: I'm going to guess that the above is one of the reasons why Wizards got rid of the OGL. I mean, look at the Pathfinder supplements, FFS).

That out of the way:

Videogames are based of TTRPGS who are based on Videogames. The Circle of Life. That out, 3e was somewhat less "gamey".

Prestige Class, heck, character classes are difficult to make. I would tread carefully on that one.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:58 am

One other overlooked aspect to the Ur-Priest is that they can also be the representative of a dead god.

How that relates to the PrC prereqs is an exercise left to the reader.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:59 am

the ur-priest is retarded, they should have just said "dear fighters, we realize that you suck, here's a class you can take to get spells"

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:42 am

Psychic Robot wrote:the ur-priest is retarded, they should have just said "dear fighters, we realize that you suck, here's a class you can take to get spells"

They did say that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tome_of_Battle

But I guess that they had to say it many times.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:08 pm

Archmage Joda wrote: Didn't someone protest and try to present a reorganized tier system when JaronK first presented his?

Ubernoob posted "Uber's Tiers" over at BG and WotC several years ago. I wasn't posting here when he did, so I don't know if that thread was created here. I doubt it, because he was pretty much calling JaronK on his methods for assigning classes to various tiers.

Over at BG it was very poorly accepted and probably assumed to be a troll right from the beginning.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:22 pm

probably because uber is fucking insane

also as much as tgd has people with inflated egos screaming at each other, bg is infinitely worse.

Count Arioch the 28th · Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:36 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:probably because uber is fucking insane

also as much as tgd has people with inflated egos screaming at each other, bg is infinitely worse.

Indeed. At least the admin here makes his best efforts to be fair. The admin there doesn't. (Yes, there are two other admins. I'm sure if they were really that important the third one would have them killed or something).

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:00 am

Oh, something else I've seen touted on other forums and was curious about Den perception thereof: The whole thing with Ice Assassin and divine ranks, is that another thing that is disagreed about here? (Just to make sure I have my informational bases covered, the thing I refer to is the trick from the Pun-Pun thread using the spell Ice Assassin, along with ways of dodging the material and xp costs, to make copies of gods and get divine ranks from them that way.)

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:12 am

Archmage Joda wrote:Oh, something else I've seen touted on other forums and was curious about Den perception thereof: The whole thing with Ice Assassin and divine ranks, is that another thing that is disagreed about here? (Just to make sure I have my informational bases covered, the thing I refer to is the trick from the Pun-Pun thread using the spell Ice Assassin, along with ways of dodging the material and xp costs, to make copies of gods and get divine ranks from them that way.)

anybody with 2 brain cells to rub together knows that ice assassin is not supposed to work like that, RAI. It's not even conclusive that the RAW actually works like that -- that whole part of the trick requires a metric fuckload of handwaving.

as it was mentioned before, that kind of wankery just doesn't mean anything here.
anyone with enough dedication to dumpster diving is going to find some unintended stuff in a body of work that spans 8 years and literally millions of words across literally hundreds of books.

But I'm new here, so I'll let someone else give their 2cp.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:15 am

The rules for how gods work are terrible and you shouldn't use them.

That said, as far as I can tell, if you already have a divine rank, Ice Assassin with the demigod rules could be interpreted to allow you to give yourself more divine ranks by using them together.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:39 am

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
Psychic Robot wrote:probably because uber is fucking insane

also as much as tgd has people with inflated egos screaming at each other, bg is infinitely worse.
Indeed. At least the admin here makes his best efforts to be fair. The admin there doesn't. (Yes, there are two other admins. I'm sure if they were really that important the third one would have them killed or something).

Keep in mind, she's fucking (at least) one of them.

On topic: Pun Pun with Ice Assassin is ridiculous, though I think it technically works.... which makes it even more ridiculous.

K · Post by K » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:42 am

Prak_Anima wrote:
On topic: Pun Pun with Ice Assassin is ridiculous, though I think it technically works.... which makes it even more ridiculous.

Considering the gods can see weeks into the future and past, I don't actually know how you are supposed to pull it off. They really can kill you weeks before you even think of doing it.

So yes, the worse spell ever written theoretically can make you a god if the DM is a total dumbass, just like how Pun Pun can make you a god with the worse ability ever written if the DM is a dumbass and fiats you infinite power with a poorly-defined ability.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:09 pm

Of course, in this case, I seem to recall fiat being the only way to actually get any divine rank at all.

In any case, I gather that Ice Assassins of Gods are considered here to not actually have divine ranks just as Manipulate Form Does Not Work That Way(tm)?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:19 pm

Ice Assassin is a broken spell because it gives you a fully functional copy of epic level monsters or characters or even your own fucking party members. Why anyone would try to have an argument about divine ranks after being allowed to use Ice Assassin is beyond me.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:04 pm

Hell, there are much better uses of "exact copy of another creature, but ice!" that have a better chance of going past the DM, such as "Copy an Efreet, use wishes, have no literal genie bullshit" or "Copy something a few levels beyond you, order it to attack you, hit it with fire, get lots of xp".

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:52 pm

Wow. Did absolutely nobody saw some of the 3.5 spells and said: "This seem like too much bullshit", like, before they went to print?

Wait, of course not.

DragonChild · Post by **DragonChild** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:05 pm

Gx1080 wrote:Wow. Did absolutely nobody saw some of the 3.5 spells and said: "This seem like too much bullshit", like, before they went to print?

Wait, of course not.

You have to understand, Ice Assassin was written by James Jacobs.

Yes, the Pathfinder guy.

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:21 am

DragonChild wrote:You have to understand, Ice Assassin was written by James Jacobs.

Yes, the Pathfinder guy.

In the same series of articles as That Damn Crab, even.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:50 am

Once you mention divine ranks, I point out that a single fucking divine saliant ability lets you auto-metamagic Time Stop to the point where you gain more rounds of action from each casting than the ability requires you to use as a cooldown time. So anyone with that ability is in their own Time Stop taking infinite actions each and every round, and anyone with access to divine rank is jolly well gonna take that ability - which completely negates the point of having stats for deities in the first place.

So "divine rank" is pretty much code for "we are now talking about rules that will never ever be used by anyone who understands rules"

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:31 am

Josh_Kablack wrote:Once you mention divine ranks, I point out that a single fucking divine saliant ability lets you auto-metamagic Time Stop to the point where you gain more rounds of action from each casting than the ability requires you to use as a cooldown time. So anyone with that ability is in their own Time Stop taking infinite actions each and every round, and anyone with access to divine rank is jolly well gonna take that ability - which completely negates the point of having stats for deities in the first place.

So "divine rank" is pretty much code for "we are now talking about rules that will never ever be used by anyone who understands rules"

I haven't checked for a long time, but... pretty sure no one every takes that ability. Because they take Alter Reality, which allows them to cast any spell at will, ever spontaneously, from all lists, and also do a bunch of other shit, and so they can just use Timestop infinite times in a row, having a Time Stop within a Time Stop within a Time Stop, and taking infinite actions, that are casting every buff spell in the game.

EDIT: Okay, so there is a Salient Divine Ability that would allow you to pick a spellcasting class (or SLAs) and a single metamagice feat. Or, Alter Reality, the one that let's you cast any spell off any list at will can also let you cast any spell of any list modified by any metamagic feat you want, provided you wait between castings. So... Persistent Time Stop, followed by Persistent every buff.

Yeah... no one should ever take anything besides Alter Reality.

DragonChild · Post by **DragonChild** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:49 am

Ice Assassin: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030124a

Count Arioch the 28th · Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:09 am

Lol, what the fuck was the author thinking?