Why are Dragons's under CRd?

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:20 pm

Orion wrote:--The test to see if a monster should be CR 5 is not "is it possible for a prepared level 5 party to beat this monster." If it's sufficiently challenging to require preparation to defeat, and it's not easy to run away from, it's not CR 5.

If I'm remembering the SGT correctly a CR5 monster should be beaten around 50% of the time by a random single lvl 5 character. If anyone would like to try to make that argument for dragons I'd like to see it.

Shadow, assuming the party doesn't have access to the spell compendium, how do they beat the dragon?

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:17 pm

Red-Rob,

I'm hesitant to extend the parameters that far. The premise of the SGT was that a level 5 character should have 50/50 odds against a random selection of monsters, not that a CR 5 monster should have 50/50 odds against a random selection of characters. It seems equivalent but it's actually the converse.

Consider that some monsters are designed to, as recently discussed in another thread, "jump out of a hole in the ground and mega-rape someone." Some monsters do much better in 1v1s than against a full group, so it's okay if a given monster consistently performs well on the SGT.

Shadow Balls · Post by **Shadow Balls** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:29 pm

Krusk wrote:Are you arguing that a level 5 wizard has the following spells. I gave 20 int, cause thats not unreasonable on either side.

Level 0 - 4 - BS we don't care about.
Level 1 - 5 - Cause Fear, Charm Person, Comprehend Lang, Obscuring Mist, Expeditious Retreat
Level 2 - 3 - Alter Self, Spectral Hand, Hold Person
Level 3 - 2 - downdraft, shivering touch

Of course not, because...

Shadow Balls wrote:Downdraft: Cleric 3, Druid 3.

1: Sorc/Wiz is not listed at all, so it is not possible for the level 5 Wizard to prepare it, and it is instead being prepared by the level 5 Cleric or Druid that can sac it for a CSW or SNA3 if they fight no fliers today.
2: The Shivering Touch combo is what you do when you know you are fighting a dragon, which means that it takes one combat round, namely the combat round in which you cast Shivering Touch.
3: The Downdraft thing is what you do when you want anti flier measures in your apparently incompetent party but do not know specifically that you will fight a dragon today.

Edit: If you don't have the Spell Compendium, and I don't know why you wouldn't you just go with the first thing I mentioned, in which you do damage equal to or greater than 96 to AC 18 in 3 rounds. Which unless your party is composed entirely of basket weavers is beyond trivial to pull off, considering that even a single decent character could do this by themselves in 1-2 rounds.

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:31 pm

cleric/druid is basically the same, but swap out shivering touch for something good because you can't get spectral hand.

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:50 pm

LR wrote:
Shadow Balls wrote:Downdraft: Cleric 3, Druid 3.
That spell isn't on this list, so the party Cleric hasn't even heard of it, let alone prepared it. If one enemy requires you to prepare an obscure and shitty spell from a book that wasn't out when the MM was printed, then that enemy is too powerful. I've read through the entire Spell Compendium multiple times, and I couldn't have told you that Downdraft existed before this thread, because it was too useless to be worth remembering. Whipping it out like it's some sort of trump card is conceding the argument. Get that through your head.

Here's the thing... Downdraft is only even a remotely acceptable spell if the dragon is playing the strafe game with a cone, or the 'hover 10' above you and eat you' game.

When the dragon starts up the 'dropping rocks on you from 300' up' game, downdraft is a complete and utter waste of time and resources.

If the dragon has a line breath weapon and makes the save, again Downdraft was completely worthless.

If the dragon did something crazy like take Enlarge Breath Weapon, Shape Breath Weapon or Extended Spreading Breath Weapon and again Downdraft does nothing at least 50% of the time.

Now if the dragon comes in with a Clinging Maximized Heightened breath weapon, It's going to drop 40 fire damage with a save DC of say 60 and you're going to take that damage again in the next round. That's a one shot of a 5th level mage with a maximum HP per dice and a +2 con mod. On average HP a 5th level mage with a +5 con mod still dies instantly.

Now, the dropping rocks, the straffing with the breath weapon, the metabreath weapon of doom, the grapple/fly/drop, and the hover above an attack... can all be done by the exact same dragon with no changes. As an FYI everything I've highlighted above that makes Downdarft bad? It also has the loverly side effect of making Tanglefoot bags impossible to hit with.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:55 pm

Ok, Very Young Red Dragon (CR 5) basic tactics, assuming mutual surprise, say while the dragon is drinking from a pool of water, and assume about a 50' distance between parties.

Feats: Flyby Attack, Hover, Wingover

Round 1: Take flight, moves forward 10 feet, hovering momentarily, creating a dust storm with a 60' radius, cutting the party's visibility, as it hits them with the fat end of it's fire cone (4d10 fire damage, avg 22) and then flies off 140' away, under cover of dust storm.
Round 2: Pick up boulders, Fly 150' up
Round 3: Return to being above party, drop boulders, each dealing 15d6 (avg 52.5) to any PC they hit
Round 4: Dive at PCs, full attack, dealing out a 2d6 bite, 2 1d8 claws , 2 1d6 wings and a 1d8 tail slap, then take a five foot step into the air, and hover, recreating the dust storm
Round 5: Fly up another 35', Fire breath all in a 20' radius below it, which the PCs likely are, as the were probably just trying to attack it while it was on the ground. Another 4d10 fire to the party, and it flies off 115'.

Repeat

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:58 pm

a) those are terrible tactics.

b) notice them within 50ft? Is there a reason that you choose a specific distance that proves you didn't read the dragon entry?

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:38 pm

Prak,

If you're allowing monsters to abuse the damage-via-dropped object rules, then damn near any semi-intelligent monster with flight auto-kills most level 5 parties, so dragons are not unique in being under-CR'ed. Also, you're not playing Pathfinder -- although I really can't even tell if that's part of this exercise in pointless online headbutting or not -- even PF haters like me know those got softened

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:53 pm

Josh, why do you think Pathfinder has to be assumed exactly?

Nothing about this thread requires Pathfinder.

One guy keeps saying "So yeah, Pathfinder Archers do 10 times the damage of 3.5 Archers, and also have higher grapple modifiers by about 15. But I'm not going to explain why."

But other than that one guy, nothing about this is 3.5.

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:55 am

Kaelik wrote:One guy keeps saying "So yeah, Pathfinder Archers do 10 times the damage of 3.5 Archers, and also have higher grapple modifiers by about 15. But I'm not going to explain why."

I can explain why. PF archers benefit from a bunch of new bullshit niggling class-based damage modifiers that multiply through (basically unchanged) Rapid Shot and Multishot, and also benefit from Ranged Power Attack (Deadly Aim or some shit). A paladin archer also smites for +(level x 2) damage per arrow against dragons (and outsiders and undead). For every assbackwards nerf to melee combat or melee maneuvers, archers somehow made out with another +1 to damage from some source.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:34 am

Dragons don't melee. They strafe the opposition if given the opportunity and there's no credible counter from the target or they snatch a single opponent and fly away with their superspeed to murder them privately.

that happened to me once

Also, "buffs fucking stack" as Ubernoob once said. At the very least, a mid-CR dragon who wants melee with be preparing wraithstrike for touch AC rape on every attack.

any DM who allows wraithstrike is retarded
any DM who has a dragon use wraithstrike is a dick

One guy keeps saying "So yeah, Pathfinder Archers do 10 times the damage of 3.5 Archers, and also have higher grapple modifiers by about 15. But I'm not going to explain why."

pathfinder actually did a decent job with archers by giving them the equivalent of power attack, so every arrow from a high level ranger does +12 damage. paladins also do a ridiculous amount of damage against evil dragons, something like +40 damage on their first attack of a smite and then +20 on every other attack

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:57 am

Kaelik wrote:a) those are terrible tactics.

b) notice them within 50ft? Is there a reason that you choose a specific distance that proves you didn't read the dragon entry?

a) fuck you kaelik, if you think they're terrible, put up something better

b) no, just sounded like a good number and I don't care enough to read the whole fucking entry. Once again, I skim when pointless arguments go beyond two pages, but in this case I'm actually trying to end it by supporting a side.

tl;dr: put up or shut up, kealik.

Josh, again, I really don't care enough, I was proposing very basic tactics so that an actual discourse can be attempted, rather than two sides standing across from each other shouting "Nuh uh! Idiot!" and "Uh huh! Poop Breath!"

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:19 am

Shadow Balls wrote:1: Sorc/Wiz is not listed at all, so it is not possible for the level 5 Wizard to prepare it, and it is instead being prepared by the level 5 Cleric or Druid that can sac it for a CSW or SNA3 if they fight no fliers today.
2: The Shivering Touch combo is what you do when you know you are fighting a dragon, which means that it takes one combat round, namely the combat round in which you cast Shivering Touch.
3: The Downdraft thing is what you do when you want anti flier measures in your apparently incompetent party but do not know specifically that you will fight a dragon today.

Edit: If you don't have the Spell Compendium, and I don't know why you wouldn't you just go with the first thing I mentioned, in which you do damage equal to or greater than 96 to AC 18 in 3 rounds. Which unless your party is composed entirely of basket weavers is beyond trivial to pull off, considering that even a single decent character could do this by themselves in 1-2 rounds.

Shadow, you're not making any sense. Anti-specific monster type spells are what you devote your lower level spell slots to, not your highest. If you seriously think it is normal for a level 5 cleric to devote his highest level spells to downdraft, just on the off chance they meet a flying enemy, you are either lying to try to win the argument or you play D&D very differently to most sane people. Oh, and burning it for a CSW like thats an acceptable alternative? This is 3.5, we have CL wands, don't even try to pull that shit. A slot on downdraft is a wasted slot on 3 out of 4 days, and noone in their right mind plays those odds.

Also, can you show how an average level 5 party deals 96 damage over 2 rounds to a flying enemy without relying on a single ranged party member the dragon can just swoop in and abduct?

The point isn't that dragons can never be beaten - they would never have seen print if that was the case. The point is that their advantages and abilities make them much more dangerous than other monsters of their CR level . To really test the argument make the dragon EL+4, which makes it apparently equal to the party, and see if you get a 50/50 win rate

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:28 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:a) fuck you kaelik, if you think they're terrible, put up something better

b) no, just sounded like a good number and I don't care enough to read the whole fucking entry. Once again, I skim when pointless arguments go beyond two pages, but in this case I'm actually trying to end it by supporting a side.

a) I did.

b) You won't end things by saying stupid things that are wrong, so read the entry first. Also, why you think supporting one side would end an argument is beyond me. I already presented a superior set of tactics and examples, Shadow has resorted to "Just prepare for the Dragon" or "Just do 96 damage in two rounds... somehow that's so easy I refuse to explain."

Shadow Balls · Post by **Shadow Balls** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:15 pm

This thread is now incredibly awesome.

People: So here's this dragon, it breath weapon strafes people and then drops them.
Me: Only if your entire party can't do 96 damage in 3 rounds. If you can't figure out how to do 8 fucking damage per person per round, please die in a fire and make the world a better place.
People: HERPADERPIES.

Later...

People: Hey, let's move the fucking goalposts by making the dragon do something totally different than what we said it would do, just to counter the secondary or tertiary tactics that you never even need if your party is anything better than entirely incompetent. And that still does not counter the primary, which is doing at least a whopping EIGHT DAMAGE PER PERSON PER ROUND. Wow, so hard.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:02 pm

Erm... Shadow... talking about how other people are dumb doesn't make your argument valid. The only reason Kaelik and K and Frank get away with it most of the time is because their arguments are valid, and the obscenities are sort of their "Ha! I'm right so I get to create noise pollution!" dick-waving tactic.

Don't wave your dick if you can't support your own dick-waving. We're still waiting on why your party caster prepares downdraft over another spell that's moderately useful, and how that can totally end in the devastation of the dragon. Thus far, it appears that you limit the dragon and really piss it off, and then it runs away to come back with the durations are over, and proceeds to do its business all over your face.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:11 pm

Shadow Balls wrote:If you don't have the Spell Compendium, and I don't know why you wouldn't you just go with the first thing I mentioned, in which you do damage equal to or greater than 96 to AC 18 in 3 rounds. Which unless your party is composed entirely of basket weavers is beyond trivial to pull off, considering that even a single decent character could do this by themselves in 1-2 rounds.

Put up or shut up.

How does a single 5th-level character deal 96 damage to AC 18 in 1-2 rounds?

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:22 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:How does a single 5th-level character deal 96 damage to AC 18 in 1-2 rounds?

Bookbomb.

Or were you looking for less cheese?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:34 pm

Ok, yes, a book with five castings of Explosive Runes spelling "Boom." would, on average, kill a dragon. I think it's fair to say that a dragon would likely be curious enough to investigate a strange book it found.
(note, it takes about three days, or three cycles of rest/cast to make that book)

How does a fifth level party, let alone a single character, beat a dragon in combat?

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:23 pm

fectin wrote:
angelfromanotherpin wrote:How does a single 5th-level character deal 96 damage to AC 18 in 1-2 rounds?
Bookbomb.

Or were you looking for less cheese?

Bookbomb isn't cheesy so much as twee. It has a long setup time that you are entirely gimped during. It has serious range issues. Whoever you hire to carry and throw the thing has a significant chance of not doing their job - even if you can convince someone to carry the bomb, and even if they get True Strike to mitigate the large attack penalty, they may very well not live long enough to do their job in a 3.x fight. And it eats a level 3 spell slot to trigger - a resource which can win a lot of fights without all the associated bookbomb bullshit.

It also has a high chance of opening up rule-interpretation flamewars at your table, on such topics as 'does the first explosion destroy all the other inscriptions before they go off,' and 'can you voluntarily fail a caster level check,' and so on.

The bookbomb, despite its flaws, can totally defeat the challenge I threw down. There is a chance it will fail, but it involves too many variables of campaign and personality to compute; so I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

New challenge: Is there a non-Bookbomb build that can also do the job?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:25 pm

Scribe explosive runes into ground, run away, lure dragon to be adjacent to all runes, set off from afar with spyglasses, timed to each rune is set off by a member of the party.

K · Post by K » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:21 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:Scribe explosive runes into ground, run away, lure dragon to be adjacent to all runes, set off from afar with spyglasses, timed to each rune is set off by a member of the party.

Explosive runes can only be cast on "a book, map, scroll, or similar object bearing written information."

That being said, if you are resorting to sketchy interpretations of spell to beat a challenge designed to eat 20% of player resources, the CR is probably too low by quite a lot.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:59 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:How does a single 5th-level character deal 96 damage to AC 18 in 1-2 rounds?

Gnome druid with a lance?

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:51 am

CR 5 dragons have a flight speed of 150' (poor) and, as such, can move a maxium of 40' upwards in a single round without stalling out and dropping like a rock. Only 2 CR 5 dragons have a reach of 10' for bite attacks only, and all the rest don't have reach. A lance fighter riding a spider eater* has a flight speed of 60' (good) and a reach of 10' with their lance.

By making use of the fact that creatures with a maneuverability of good can go straight up when flying and then hover in place, while creatures of poor maneuverability need to fly up at a 45 degree angle and waste movement on maintaining a minimum forward speed, you can reliably position yourself 10' directly above the dragon. By making a DC 15 ride check (which you make), you can get cover vs. the dragon during your movement and not provoke AoOs from moving. The dragon lacks that ability and is forced to eat 1d8+8 damage per round in AoOs. Since you have cover vs. the dragon whenever it matters, all of your reflex saves are made at +4 on top of whatever your normal bonus is.

It's a long fight admittedly, but definately winnable solo. Adding in party members (who presumably also have flying mounts, see below) makes it downright easy.

*Spider eaters cost 6000gp (2000gp if you rear it yourself, which you totally should) on the open market. You alos get the delightful advantage of being able to start farming them (2000gp eggs and you can rear some for the rest of the party!) due to the Implant (Ex) ability and a DC 17 poison that causes paralysis for 1d8+5 weeks on a failed save. They also get scent and Su freedom of movement. They're in the SRD, so you don't get to bitch at me about them being "exotic" any more than you could if I suggested the fighter buy a hippogriff or a giant eagle.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:08 am

???

1) So are you saying that all parties ever should have a team of Spider Eaters, and that if they don't, they aren't real parties? Or are you presenting one more way that someone who specifically spent a bunch of resources after this problem was brought to their attention, and did something that most parties never do could beat a CR 5 Dragon.

2) Yes, I suppose if you take a four person party, and give each of them a CR 5 monster, thus effectively doubling party level, you can beat a CR 5 Dragon.

3) If you only have 1 Spider Eater, you still commit the cardinal sin of killing the Dragon after your party is already dead. Not impressive.

4) You... don't actually know how the fly rules work. Up can be the forward direction, the forward direction is whichever direction you don't have to pay turning costs to go. Up is valid, so the Dragon can ascend 75ft straight up every round if he wants (After his first round orienting himself upwards).

5) He could also just kill your Spider Eater before you kill him, and then resort back to other tactics.