What do you find fun in D&D? How do You have fun in D&D?

[A Man In Black]

That's game destructive. It's like logging onto someone's mine craft server and just messing up all the shit they made and saying "I'm not ruining it, I'm just changing the game's structure!" Or maybe you'd like to log onto an FPS and start teamkilling? Again, just changing the game's structure right?

Except that blowing things up is an important and entertaining part of Minecraft, and you're arguing for a game that doesn't include blowing things up because jerks might blow up the wrong thing.

[Swordslinger]

Except that blowing things up is an important and entertaining part of Minecraft, and you're arguing for a game that doesn't include blowing things up because jerks might blow up the wrong thing.

Not at all. I'm just saying you have to use discretion in what you blow up such that you're not blowing up crap the other players don't want you to. It's a team game, and you're expected to be a team player and you should be striving to have fun as a group, not have fun at everyone else's expense.

[A Man In Black]

Not at all. I'm just saying you have to use discretion in what you blow up such that you're not blowing up crap the other players don't want you to. It's a team game, and you're expected to be a team player and you should be striving to have fun as a group, not have fun at everyone else's expense.

Then you're not arguing for anything. Nobody thinks that player is being anything other than a jerk, but rather that the particular player's antisocial tendencies would be curbed by a better-designed game (and such a game would consist of yadda yadda). K's first reply to you called out that player as a douche, and everyone since is making fun of you for not getting with the program or alternately trying to describe to you (in increasingly elementary terms) the other points being discussed.

You are making stupid clueless noise in order to make the point that some hypothetical person is a jerk. Please stop.

[hogarth]

Telling a story, killing some schmucks, looting treasure, amassing power (vertical or horizontal, or even non-mechanical), replicating characters, playing around with a character of my own.

This is as good a list as any.

On the flipside, I don't like 4e DnD because the range of stories it can tell is very narrow... even more narrow than genre games like Vampire or Shadowrun.

This is very strange.

I always found that in 4E I could tell any story I wanted and the players spent more time actually doing story things. Further, the players ability sets were better at allowing them to do the core things that were important, especially in a game with strong sword & Sorcery/Epic fantasy leanings.

I think the ideas behind 4E are pretty good at telling sword & sorcery stories (or at least D&D-type stories), except the implementation of many of those ideas was fucked up. For instance, no sword & sorcery story should have a sorcerer casting Acid Orb eight times in a row (which happens surprisingly often in our 4E campaign). And likewise, the flavour of rituals would fit nicely in a sword & sorcery story, but the rules are terrible (we've never used the ritual system even once, primarily because of the cost).

YMMV, obviously.