West Marches: 3.5 House Rules

[tussock]

Yes, you should control them (or the field, or just keep your Fighter on a shorter leash), but that is never 100%. For when that all fails, for when you do fall in a closet with a Troll and it gets surprise and initiative, it's important everyone is walking around with full hit points, even if that's not your first fight today.

I give up, that's too simple a concept for people who play D&D to not understand.

[...You Lost Me]

I don't know if you've ever actually put that forward in the argument before, but OK.

And then if you do fall for a closet troll, you need full HP for the next combat, which means you need to burn spells, except that next combat will require you to burn spells, so why stop wasting your spells on healing and conserve them for the control of the next encounter?

If something is more efficient than something else at almost every level of play, then it's suboptimal not to be using that. I just don't understand how healing suddenly becomes important after the encounter, unless of course you're planning on resting.

[talozin]

More actual house rules.

Proposed House Rule: The following spells are unavailable in play. The game is supposed to end before level 14, so 7th level spells have not been discussed here.

Cleric: Guidance, Divine Favor, Entropic Shield, Shield of Faith, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Eagle's Splendor, Owl's Wisdom, Magic Vestment, Divine Power, Greater Magic Weapon, Lesser Planar Ally, Disrupting Weapon, Righteous Might, Scrying, Heroes' Feast, Mass Bear's Endurance, Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Eagle's Splendor, Mass Owl's Wisdom, Planar Ally.

Sorcerer/Wizard: Resistance, Enlarge Person, Reduce Person, False Life, Alter Self, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, Heroism, Rage, Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon, Stoneskin, Minor Creation, Scrying, Mass Enlarge Person, Mass Reduce Person, Major Creation, Lesser Planar Binding, Fabricate, Planar Binding, Greater Heroism, Mass Bear's Endurance, Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Cat's Grace, Mass Eagle's Splendor, Mass Fox's Cunning, Mass Owl's Wisdom.

Proposed House Rule: As a general rule, spells with a duration of 1 minute/level have a duration of 1 round/level.

Spells On The Bubble: I at least thought about banning the following but have so far not done so.

Cleric: Aid.

Sorcerer/Wizard: Protection from Arrows, Resist Energy, Protection from Energy, Haste.

Spell To Be Rewritten: Polymorph. Too iconic to ban, too utterly broken in its current state to allow to continue.

I deliberately let Bless and Prayer stand (albeit with a shortened duration on the former), thanks to their iconic status and their relatively minor effects.

Did I miss any grossly overpowered spells, levels 1-6? Did I ban something that can safely be permitted?

[Midnight_v]

Talozin... whats you're goal here?

That list looks like you're trying to say "No buff masters", but ironically, unless you have some really wild Melee variants in mind... all you've done is assaulted the "Gish" archtype.

That is to say, your intent is to remove buff spells from the game? Yet, that doesn't help the "melee" guys fight. All you've done is ensure that God (in the treantmonk sense) exists.

It appears to me thats a flaw.

[Kaelik]

I have to second Midnight? What is your goal?

If your goal is to not have Codzillas, then remove Divine Power and make every other personal range buff into a long duration touch range buff.

Suddenly, not Cleric will ever cast a spell on themself before casting it on the Wizard.

If your intention is to nerf melee combat against monsters... You are an idiot, because it's already pretty bad.

[talozin]

That is to say, your intent is to remove buff spells from the game?

Correct, more or less.

Yet, that doesn't help the "melee" guys fight.

Also correct. I'm aware this is going to require some buffing of the melee fighter classes; I think that's damned near a necessity in trying to bring a 3.5 game into balance, period.

All you've done is ensure that God (in the treantmonk sense) exists.

I know it's not stylish to admit you have no idea what someone is talking about, but I have no idea what you're talking about. You're suggesting that a monk polymorphed into a treant is a badass character under these rules?

[Surgo]

Correct, more or less.

Might I ask why you want to make the game boring as shit? At this rate, just tell everyone to roll up a fighter. That's way simpler than this many-page houserule monstrosity and accomplishes much of the same intention.

[talozin]

Might I ask why you want to make the game boring as shit?

See, I think keeping track of a fuckton of spells, some with durations in rounds, some with durations in minutes, some with durations in 10s of minutes, some with durations in hours, and all of them with different effects is boring as shit. I think removing that shit makes it less boring. But I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise.

That's way simpler than this many-page houserule monstrosity and accomplishes much of the same intention.

Bah, I refuse to take the responsibility for the fact that tussock, ModelCitizen and You Lost Me spent the last 2 1/2 pages pissing on each other.

[...You Lost Me]

See, I think keeping track of a fuckton of spells, some with durations in rounds, some with durations in minutes, some with durations in 10s of minutes, some with durations in hours, and all of them with different effects is boring as shit. I think removing that shit makes it less boring. But I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise.

Np buffs turns the game from thinking about whether or not to help yourself/an ally to spamming kill attacks every turn. By removing buff spells, you remove a lot of the thinking from the game, and that is boring. If ticking durations bothers you (and god knows why that would be boring, since it's not hard and you can do other things when you're buffed), just run the damn thing ad hoc. Some buffs last an encounter, some buffs last for the day, and some buffs last till you fall asleep. Removing buffs means the cleric's coolest shit is now useless, and the utility of the wizard is even less than the tome barbarian.

Bah, I refuse to take the responsibility for the fact that tussock, ModelCitizen and You Lost Me spent the last 2 1/2 pages pissing on each other.

Woah, man. Woah. I have made two posts in this thread. One was a joke, and one was a very obvious statement of, like, 4 lines. Don't generalize me with tussock and the people who think he's capable of reasoning.

[Blicero]

I know it's not stylish to admit you have no idea what someone is talking about, but I have no idea what you're talking about. You're suggesting that a monk polymorphed into a treant is a badass character under these rules?

treantmonk was a dude (presumably) on the d&d boards who, back in like 2007 or 2008, wrote an extensive optimization guide about a new wizard archetype he called "god." It gained memetic traction.

The basic idea of the god wizard is that you intentionally don't choose spells that make you win the game by yourself. Instead you focus on battlefield control and buffs that let your party win the game without making anyone feel small in the pants. It's a noble sentiment, if nothing else.

[talozin]

No buffs turns the game from thinking about whether or not to help yourself/an ally to spamming kill attacks every turn. By removing buff spells, you remove a lot of the thinking from the game, and that is boring.

That's an interesting way of looking at it, but I think a large number of the spells listed above don't fall into the list of things you might reasonably cast instead of a kill attack. I mean nobody ever casts Greater Magic Weapon or Magic Vestment during an actual combat. Even stuff like Bull's Strength is by and large cast before you break down the door.

Now, you might argue that if I knock the duration down to rounds/level instead of minutes/level anyway, I've already removed a lot of the incentive to do that, and shit might actually get cast in a fight. But I really don't like the stat-boosting spells in general; I think naked stat bonuses are dull, and I think their existence in-game and as magic items makes it pretty much mandatory for people to go for those. If the expectation is that people will have +2/+4/+6 to their primary and/or secondary stat at various points in their career, why not just give people those bonuses and skip the in-game accounting? It's not like we're not already giving people attribute increases.

Having said all that, there're still some spells that don't exactly fit either of these categories, so, yeah, I'm on the fence about stuff like Enlarge/Reduce and Rage.

Removing buffs means the cleric's coolest shit is now useless, and the utility of the wizard is even less than the tome barbarian.

The cleric's coolest shit was being "a fighter, but better", and, yeah, I'm pretty sure that has to go. As for the wizard ...just the fact that Suggestion is still on the wizard list makes a mockery of that statement. Seriously -- out of the list of sweet third level (to pick the point on the SRD that my browser is open to) spells the wizard in a standard game gets, he's missing Rage, Heroism, Keen Edge, and Greater Magic Weapon. Check out what's left on that list and I think you will agree that the notion of the wizard being less useful than the barbarian is horseshit.

Woah, man. Woah. I have made two posts in this thread. One was a joke, and one was a very obvious statement of, like, 4 lines. Don't generalize me with tussock and the people who think he's capable of reasoning.

I admit, I LOL'd.

[Surgo]

The cleric's coolest shit was being "a fighter, but better", and, yeah, I'm pretty sure that has to go.

Why do you think people played the Cleric at all? Nobody wants to be just a healbot, so you need to make that healbot awesome or it won't work.

[...You Lost Me]

\That's an interesting way of looking at it, but I think a large number of the spells listed above don't fall into the list of things you might reasonably cast instead of a kill attack. I mean nobody ever casts Greater Magic Weapon or Magic Vestment during an actual combat. Even stuff like Bull's Strength is by and large cast before you break down the door.

Sanctuary is a buff spell that saves allies and is actually both interesting and awesome. Lion's Charge is an immediate-action, 1-round druid buff spell that gives you pounce and is fucking cool. Wraithstrike is borkened, but is eromdsaf;odufeewiouenf awesome. Those things leaving makes the game boring.

Even things you might cast before combat like spider climb or babau slime are awesome. Don't give those the boot because you don't like GMW or BS.

Now, you might argue that if I knock the duration down to rounds/level instead of minutes/level anyway, I've already removed a lot of the incentive to do that, and shit might actually get cast in a fight. But I really don't like the stat-boosting spells in general; I think naked stat bonuses are dull, and I think their existence in-game and as magic items makes it pretty much mandatory for people to go for those. If the expectation is that people will have +2/+4/+6 to their primary and/or secondary stat at various points in their career, why not just give people those bonuses and skip the in-game accounting? It's not like we're not already giving people attribute increases.

So many buffs are more interesting than those. Things like enlarge/reduce and rage, like you said, are cool. If you kill buffs, the game gets boring.

The cleric's coolest shit was being "a fighter, but better", and, yeah, I'm pretty sure that has to go.

No, the cleric's coolest shit was "Hey, in the morning I decide to become a fucking angel." or "I can conjure a sword that deals festering damage" or the self-explanatory "DMM Persist Polymorph: Today I'm going to be a dragon".

As for the wizard ...just the fact that Suggestion is still on the wizard list makes a mockery of that statement. Seriously -- out of the list of sweet third level (to pick the point on the SRD that my browser is open to) spells the wizard in a standard game gets, he's missing Rage, Heroism, Keen Edge, and Greater Magic Weapon. Check out what's left on that list and I think you will agree that the notion of the wizard being less useful than the barbarian is horseshit.

I am seeing: No magic circle, nondetection, protection from energy, phantom steed, arcane sight, tongues, heroism, rage, displacement, invisibility sphere, blink, fly, gaseous form, haste, keen edge, GMW, and water breathing. Tiny hut, secret page, shrink item, summon III, and gentle repose might fall under buffs too.

That leaves the wizard with... Abjuration: Dispelling magic (woo) and a weak trap. Conjuration: Crowd clearers and debuff. 'dem kill spells. Divination: hear or see at a distance (lol). Enchantment: 'dem kill spells. Suggestion might help. Evocation: 'dem other kill spells, and also a bit of arrow defense. Illusion: Major image, which is nice. Necromancy: 'dem kill spells. Transmutation: Erm, slow? And some item-dependent things.

Yeah, so the wizard is getting some interesting utility in the sense of illusions, further sight, playing with items, and dispels basically. The barbarian ain't got no illusions, can scout nice and fine, doesn't stealth items but makes them just as strong, and doesn't dispel but can certainly play the antimagic tank role. So my statement is actually false, but the barbarian comes nervously close and that buff-slashing really shows in several of the categories.

[talozin]

Sanctuary is a buff spell that saves allies and is actually both interesting and awesome. Lion's Charge is an immediate-action, 1-round druid buff spell that gives you pounce and is fucking cool. Wraithstrike is borkened, but is eromdsaf;odufeewiouenf awesome. Those things leaving makes the game boring.

Sanctuary is not on the banned list. Spider Climb is not on the banned list. While I've generally excluded stuff from outside the core books, if someone (here or in game) wants to make an impassioned argument for other such spells, I'm open to persuasion.

So many buffs are more interesting than those. Things like enlarge/reduce and rage, like you said, are cool. If you kill buffs, the game gets boring.

Basically, my goal is to eliminate the buffs that are either (a) boring as shit or (b) stupid unbalanced, and keep the ones that are interesting.

I am seeing: No magic circle, nondetection, protection from energy, phantom steed, arcane sight, tongues, heroism, rage, displacement, invisibility sphere, blink, fly, gaseous form, haste, keen edge, GMW, and water breathing. Tiny hut, secret page, shrink item, summon III, and gentle repose might fall under buffs too.

Whoa, whoa whoa whoa. You are misunderstanding my "spells unavailable in play" post ... well, I should own this; I should not have answered "correct" when asked if my goal was removing buff spells from the game. It was never my intention to remove EVERY buff spell from play. That original post contains a specific list of spells to remove, and others from the PHB should be assumed to remain in play. So yeah, that list minus Keen Edge, GMW, Heroism, and Rage would still be A-OK.

[tussock]

@talozin. Just a few comments on your aims and methods.

If you want to give out free mods instead of needing the spells, that's fine. Just make the class/level mods a free enhancement/resistance/competence bonus and you're done. Stop writing huge lists of bans, it's a waste of time.

Like if you hate all the save-or-die/suck/lose stuff, just give out more free save bonuses. There's a source for morale bonuses somewhere of about +1/4 level, so give everything +CR/4 morale bonus to saves, and along with the +CR/3 resistance bonus above, you're done.

If you don't like no-save spells, give a save for every spell. If you don't like combat-ending magic, give disabled people continuing saves against ongoing effects (generalising the Hold Person trick).

Find the underlying problem and fix it with a minor math adjustment, stop writing big lists. You'll be playing before you know it, and if you mess something up it's much easier to tweak it back the same way.