The Gaming Den

Seramus wrote:

Voss wrote:Anyway... I will be mildly surprised if White Wolf still exists in a couple years, so the threat of Scion mark 2 seems pretty low to me.

It's officially on the list to be made.

Ok, having just looked at the Onyx Path publishing schedule and seeing no mention of scion at all, I must ask, what is your source of information that tells you there's an official plan for scion 2?

OPP, by which we of course mean the former White Wolf Art Director, paid actual money for the license to put out Scion products and has said that he will do that. It is inconceivable that they wouldn't put out something, since they have shown themselves willing to troll message boards for content and they release things print-on-demand.

For certain values of "exist", a new Scion edition will almost certainly "exist".

-Username17

Voss wrote: It actually bothers me immensely that it sounds like Scion was relatively tame and almost reasonable for a White Wolf product.

My theory is that the writers can only maintain wood by inserting weird sex into settings and factions where you could reasonably expect that stuff to never come up, so they sorta iced themselves by including the Greek pantheon.

Koumei wrote: 2. No they won't (make another Scion), they don't have any money. They were bought up by a company from a country that doesn't have any money, too. Even if they do scrape some pennies together, they'll go to where the money is and make a newer Vampire, or rather, remake the old one."

So I guess this blog to the WW devleopers that's been saying for several weeks they are currently working on development of Scion 2 is a complete and total lie?

mikal768 wrote:So I guess this blog to the WW devleopers that's been saying for several weeks they are currently working on development of Scion 2 is a complete and total lie?

Well based on the first lines I read

bolding is mine wrote:As you folks might know, we had a tradition at White Wolf where we put out a product on April Fool’s Day- usually a twisted, but playable, version of our regular stuff.

I'd say, calling anthing said on that blag a complete and total lie sounds just about right.

ishy wrote:

mikal768 wrote:So I guess this blog to the WW devleopers that's been saying for several weeks they are currently working on development of Scion 2 is a complete and total lie?

Well based on the first lines I read

bolding is mine wrote:As you folks might know, we had a tradition at White Wolf where we put out a product on April Fool’s Day- usually a twisted, but playable, version of our regular stuff.

I'd say, calling anthing said on that blag a complete and total lie sounds just about right.

So you completely ignore where I said the blog has been detailing Scion development for the last several weeks.

Reading comprehension is a good thing, ja?

Breakdancing korean ninjas.... wry?

mikal768 wrote:So you completely ignore where I said the blog has been detailing Scion development for the last several weeks.

Reading comprehension is a good thing, ja?

In the English language, anything does in fact include things said in the last several weeks.

ishy wrote:

mikal768 wrote:So you completely ignore where I said the blog has been detailing Scion development for the last several weeks.

Reading comprehension is a good thing, ja?

In the English language, anything does in fact include things said in the last several weeks.

So in other words you're retreating into pedantry after being proven wrong. Classy and mature.

No one was "proved wrong". There is a blog that says they are "totally working on Scion 2". Also, that blog has recently admitted that they lie on it and think it's funny to do so. No one is wrong to discount the information on that blog because it is unreliable.

Now that being said, the people who currently have a license to print a "totally official 2nd edition of Scion" have a track record of compiling a bunch of forum posts and art with some hi-speed hack writing into a vaguely coherent product, putting the pdf up for download on DriveThruRPG and calling that a "release".

With that extremely low standard thoroughly established, it is virtually inconceivable that Scion 2 won't get "released". But if you held as your personal standard for calling a game "released" was that "actual copies of it appeared on shelves in game stores, then Scion 2 will probably never get "released".

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:No one was "proved wrong". There is a blog that says they are "totally working on Scion 2". Also, that blog has recently admitted that they lie on it and think it's funny to do so. No one is wrong to discount the information on that blog because it is unreliable.

And again pedantry. They said they lie on an April Fools Joke item. The item is specifically linked to in question. There are several other blog entries not from April Fools which states they are developing it. So are you just being deliberately obtuse in trying to say that an April Fools Joke somehow means they're completely dishonest, or do you not get what April Fools means, and that information on other days is not necessarily a lie?

Now that being said, the people who currently have a license to print a "totally official 2nd edition of Scion" have a track record of compiling a bunch of forum posts and art with some hi-speed hack writing into a vaguely coherent product, putting the pdf up for download on DriveThruRPG and calling that a "release".

So in other words, because you don't like it, it's a hack job and not worth of being called a release as evidenced by your "" marks. That's fine. You have an opinion. Regardless of the opinion, they are working on a new release of the system. Which makes saying they are not factually incorrect. Or, wrong.

With that extremely low standard thoroughly established, it is virtually inconceivable that Scion 2 won't get "released". But if you held as your personal standard for calling a game "released" was that "actual copies of it appeared on shelves in game stores, then Scion 2 will probably never get "released".

-Username17

Seeing as how many companies are working towards electronic copies as it saves them the overhead of making physical copies, using the paradigm of "copies of it appeared on shelves in game stores" is stupid and bordering on a One True Scotsman fallacy

Well, if there is only an pdf the chances are very low, that I will buy it.

That said, Franks review was so hilarious, I could not stop myself buying Scion (dead tree format, not pdf). Need to see/read for myself.

Korwin wrote:Well, if there is only an pdf the chances are very low, that I will buy it.

That said, Franks review was so hilarious, I could not stop myself buying Scion (dead tree format, not pdf). Need to see/read for myself.

Oh I admit the rules are an abomination and Frank's reviews make me bust a gut. He's just wrong on what I've been discussing.

Though why wouldn't you buy a pdf book?

Do you consider the Complete Necromancer's Handbook from TSR to be "in print" right now?

If you answer "Yes", then I can see the argument that Scion 2 "will be released". If you answer "No", then I can see the argument that it will not be. There is no right or wrong answer there, because it's an obvious gray area.

The existence of PDF stores and print-on-demand really blurs the line of what books "exist".

-Username17

RPG rulebooks I want in dead tree. Novels I prefer on my (eInk) ebook reader.

Have the Dresden Files RPG as PDF (was included in the pre order), but while I can read it on my ebook reader its slow as hell.

I'll reconsider my stance, when there are RPG pdfs optimized for eInk screens. (formating and speed)

FrankTrollman wrote:Do you consider the Complete Necromancer's Handbook from TSR to be "in print" right now?

Is it being sold by the developer (or current rights holder) of the system for profit? If so then yes. I do.

If you answer "Yes", then I can see the argument that Scion 2 "will be released". If you answer "No", then I can see the argument that it will not be. There is no right or wrong answer there, because it's an obvious gray area.

The existence of PDF stores and print-on-demand really blurs the line of what books "exist".

-Username17

Well... that I can get behind, at least as a viewpoint you can argue. To me though, electronic release is the same as dead tree release, release/print wise.

If someone owns the rights to an intellectual literary property, and are using those rights to distribute that property, then it is being released yes? Why does whether it exists electronically or in paper format matter?

Korwin wrote:RPG rulebooks I want in dead tree. Novels I prefer on my (eInk) ebook reader.

Have the Dresden Files RPG as PDF (was included in the pre order), but while I can read it on my ebook reader its slow as hell.

I'll reconsider my stance, when there are RPG pdfs optimized for eInk screens. (formating and speed)

A good point, but I do find it's easier to carry one laptop or e-reader/tablet around for reference over dozens of books, when playing/running a game.

In traditional literary circles, a "book" which is merely a manuscript doesn't exist. It's someone's suggestion for a book, but it is not actually a book. It's a draft. A printing proof, which is what a pdf is, still isn't a book, it's a proposed final draft, and it becomes a book when it's actually printed.

Vanity Presses, which is what "print on demand" shops are, traditionally blur the line between things which are printed and things which are not. After all, a vanity press usually doesn't bother registering its products with the library of congress and is generally willing to accept submissions that are... not actually printable quality.

But pdf shops blur the line even more. You're actually selling the printing proof itself, and bypassing the entire "publication" portion of book. Is it a "book" now that you've sold it for money? I'm not sure I have a good answer for that.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:In traditional literary circles, a "book" which is merely a manuscript doesn't exist. It's someone's suggestion for a book, but it is not actually a book. It's a draft. A printing proof, which is what a pdf is, still isn't a book, it's a proposed final draft, and it becomes a book when it's actually printed.

Yes but tradition doesn't always work with the realities of the present day. While tradition can be a good thing, in this case clinging to it is a mistake, as the technology has allowed so many other opportunities for those who may not have been able to release books the old way.

But pdf shops blur the line even more. You're actually selling the printing proof itself, and bypassing the entire "publication" portion of book. Is it a "book" now that you've sold it for money? I'm not sure I have a good answer for that.

-Username17

It is an interesting question. I'm guessing from your comments you err on the side of it not being considered an actual book, due to the reasons you stated above?

If so, what would make you change that to include those items?

In light of the evidence, I will say I was wrong and it totally will be released. So all of one of my points is firmly refuted, repudiated or even doublewrongcocked.

It will still be a steaming pile of shit though, and slightly worse than if it had not been released. And it won't technically be by White Wolf, in the same way that Abraham Lincoln won't be giving any new speeches.

It is an interesting question. I'm guessing from your comments you err on the side of it not being considered an actual book, due to the reasons you stated above?

If so, what would make you change that to include those items?

Well for starters, I don't think anyone can really "own" an electronic copy of something, because electronic storage is shit. Electronic copies have many advantages, mostly having to do with being able to make and distribute copies (not that this is legal, but that you can), but "storage" just isn't there.

Simultaneously to doing this drunken review, K and I did an OSSR of the 1994 Ravenloft box set. That's nearly twenty years old. And while it is possible to find scans of the box's contents online, those have been made very recently (and they are illegal). What would have happened if you had purchased a legal digital copy of those materials those 19 years ago?

Well for starters, you would have had to make multiple illegal copies of them since then, because it would have come to you on 3.5" diskette. Neither my laptop nor my wife's Nexus 7 even has a floppy drive. Secondly, if you were using a Mac you would be unable to read it full stop because MacOS doesn't support file formats from before OSX. Things would be more likely to work on Windows machines with their enhanced level of backwards compatibility, but Microsoft is moving to a "subscription model", which is them saying that they aren't going to worry about backwards compatibility much in the future.

Right now, I can take a hard copy of a book, leave it on a shelf in my mother's house, go galavanting around the world with no home at all for several years, and then return and read the book that I still own. But an electronic copy is not something I can own in that way. Computers only last a few years, and if you don't successfully copy the data from your current computer to the next before the hard drive dies for good you lose all your data. And making copies like that isn't even technically legal (not that we don't all do it).

But what about redownloading it? Well, the history on that isn't very good either. Just this year, a manga store closed up shop and all the comics people had purchased but hadn't downloaded yet just vanished into the ether. DriveThruRPG consolidated out of the failure of RPGNow Edge in 2007, and I would be very surprised if it still existed - let alone honored your download purchase in another 13 years.

As long as digital copies are in essence only rented or stolen and not "owned" in the traditional sense, it's going to be hard to treat digital copies of things as "real" in the traditional sense. I don't think it's impossible for someone to make an e-reader that will be able to allow me to go back and read books I've stored in it for twenty, thirty, or a hundred years - but I also think that no company has any incentive to make machines that you don't have to replace every four to five years. And the history of forward compatibility across these mandatory upgrades has not been good. And I'm not holding my breath for it to become good.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:I really have no idea where the stats for a Stymphalian Bird is, but you can have one at Creature 3 and it's Skarmory, so you'd think that would be good.

It's in the God book (page 352, fucking hell these are long). Go tjeck it out, and you will realise two things:
1. FUCKING SCORE! PUT THREE DOTS IN CREATURE ASAP!
2. If the books are even written by the same people, then there was a long time between writing "Yeah, Skarmory is a Creature 3" and "Okay here are the stats". Like, long enough to forget how crazy that is.

This isn't Skarwall, it will easily sweep all of your pokeymans if you're not rocking awesome Epic Dex. Which you are. I mean, as a God you could ignore their existence altogether, but for just 3 basic Birthright powers for a starting character? You're talking a bird with a 30-50 foot wingspan and 15 dice in Dex+Stealth for hilarity, Strength 15 + 3 Epic (so it can carry you and everyone you've ever met), has Dodge DV 11, Soak 8A/32L/39B (it totally IS skarwall, it's just not only that), and has:

• Peck: 14 dice to hit, 16L dice to damage (+4 auto), Speed 4, P
• Brave Bird: 15 to hit, 24L to damage (+4 auto), Speed 5
• Crush Claw: 16 to hit, 21L to damage (+4 auto), Speed 6, P
• Iron Feathers: 19 to hit, 24L to damage (+4 auto), Speed 5, Range 50

Oh, and its health levels are -0/-0/-0/-0/-0/-0/-0/-0/-0/-0/-0/-0/-0/-0/-0/-0/-0/I

Fuck, if Mister Cavern seriously lets you take that as written, it has two more Legend than you do. I'm 99% sure this is the most ridiculous "Oops no we didn't mean that" in the game though, other fucks-up are just "Amazons cost as many dots as Spec Ops and have a stat boost on top".

Koumei wrote:
It will still be a steaming pile of shit though, and slightly worse than if it had not been released.

I like to be cautiously optimistic, though I'm thinking you're likely right.

And Frank, I'd have replied back to you in more detail but... yeah. You make good points on the "ownership" angle. It's similar if not the same as what's the trend towards videogames these days.

Koumei wrote:

• Peck: 14 dice to hit, 16L dice to damage (+4 auto), Speed 4, P
• Brave Bird: 15 to hit, 24L to damage (+4 auto), Speed 5
• Crush Claw: 16 to hit, 21L to damage (+4 auto), Speed 6, P
• Iron Feathers: 19 to hit, 24L to damage (+4 auto), Speed 5, Range 50

Alright, are you kidding, or did they write this thing up with actual Pokemon attacks?

schpeelah wrote:

Koumei wrote:

• Peck: 14 dice to hit, 16L dice to damage (+4 auto), Speed 4, P
• Brave Bird: 15 to hit, 24L to damage (+4 auto), Speed 5
• Crush Claw: 16 to hit, 21L to damage (+4 auto), Speed 6, P
• Iron Feathers: 19 to hit, 24L to damage (+4 auto), Speed 5, Range 50

Alright, are you kidding, or did they write this thing up with actual Pokemon attacks?

It's actually called:

• Clinch
  Talons
  Beak
  Razor Feathers

But basically yeah, it has Pokemon Attacks. It's considerably more powerful than the entire party and definite absurd in its cheapness for 3 dots of Creature. More so than the Basilisk or Roc you get for 5 dots of Creature. I think the Valkyries you get for five dots of Followers may be more insane though.

-Username17

Trying to pick a winner between Valks vs. Skarmory (Or hell, interacting with the Creature/Follower rules at all) really highlights the wealth of bad editing and stupid chargen options Scion brings to the table. Valks interact with what passes for the RNG far longer due to having some dots of Epic Dex and apparently you get 5 of them, happy birthday, but while Birthrights can be taken past rating 3 at chargen you are required to dip into your bonus points to do so, which means you end up with lower personal Legend. On the other hand, page 157 lists the Stympy as a weak entity that you can get for 2 points, so if your MC is blind to obvious, glaring mistakes you could have a pair of Skarmories with change left over just for waking up in the morning. So which you should take thus largely depends on whether you think your group is dumb enough to try and keep playing long enough to have Demigod adventures.

Anyway, I know it doesn't matter because all xp goes towards Legend, forever, but I want to dwell on boons for a moment since as Frank pointed out there has never, ever been any rhyme or reason to how white wolf prices sorcery. For example, Endless Season is the Fertility purviews's 10 dot power and it lets you make plants act out of character in an area. I don't mean you can make the redwoods kick ass or divert rivers Treebeard style, because that would be useful. I mean that flowers can bloom in winter and leaves can fall off of trees in the spring. Thematic? Sure. Worth setting all your XP on fire for? Ahahahaha, no.

But from the quick glance I took at my PDFS I think my favorite compare 'n' contrast exercise so far came from three different powers in the War purview: Army of One, Blessing of Ammunition and Surreal Draft. Blessing of Ammunition is an 8 dot power that just lets your weapon not run out of ammo, which is totally weak sauce given that at God tier you can reasonably expect people to just be throwing pocket change through walls or wield bows that fire an unlimited amount of fucking sharks or something. Surreal Draft is a 10 dot power, which should be bad ass, but all it lets you do is summon a bunch of mortal grunts in a game with a non-functional RNG. So, yeah, War sounds lilke it must have nothing to offer, right? Well, not entirely. You see, Army of One is a 6 dot power and it's basically Shadow Clone Fucking Jutsu. You get copies of yourself that use your Attributes and any knack you activated prior to generating them. They also use your Join Battle roll and so any time you're attacking the same dude you may benefit from Coordinated Assault. Oh, and at the end you get to choose which of the surviving clones was the "real" you all along. There's no combined wounds or anything, so it's not like you have to worry about dying like a barbarian who lost their temporary hitpoints. It's all just gravy despite being a tier lower than the other two powers I just talked about.