Exalted 3rd Edition Kickstarter

[theye1]

1) Nothing about that suggests transgendered. The clothing is pretty gender neutral and beyond big-ass boots and sword, it tells me exactly nothing. That could be a person of either gender dressed as either gender- there simply aren't enough culture cues to say one way or another.

They've explicitly said in the Kickstarter that Prince Diamond was transgendered. I was also unaware that transgendered people were also supposed to look a certain way.

2) WW has a habit of pushing 'extremes' (and casting them as extremes whether they are or not) and pushing the 'deviancy' for shock value angle. Again, whether they are or not. They treat anything that isn't vanilla as marketing schlock.

That's kinda offensive. You're dismissing any attempt by the exalted writing team to address LGBT themes or issues that transgendered people face as a marketing gimmick.

[Plague of Hats]

That's kinda offensive. You're dismissing any attempt by the exalted writing team to address LGBT themes or issues that transgendered people face as a marketing gimmick.

For some people whatever Exalted actually is or was has long stopped mattering. What's important is hating it, whatever it is. Which is okay. Sharks gotta swim; toolbag gotta be a toolbag.

[theye1]

That's kinda offensive. You're dismissing any attempt by the exalted writing team to address LGBT themes or issues that transgendered people face as a marketing gimmick.

For some people whatever Exalted actually is or was has long stopped mattering. What's important is hating it, whatever it is. Which is okay. Sharks gotta swim; toolbag gotta be a toolbag.

No, they're pretty much like this with every gameline. Being a smug elitist asshole is pretty much required for this forum.

[darkmaster]

That's kinda offensive. You're dismissing any attempt by the exalted writing team to address LGBT themes or issues that transgendered people face as a marketing gimmick.

And this is disingenuous because they totally do that kind of stuff because being shocking draws attention. Which has been pointed out not only in the post you quoted, the example having been conspicuously left out, but also again between your post and that one.

[Username17]

That's kinda offensive. You're dismissing any attempt by the exalted writing team to address LGBT themes or issues that transgendered people face as a marketing gimmick.

Wait, what "issues" did they address? Prince Diamond may well be transgendered, but he is also an exalt who lives above the law and above common people in every possible way. Whether he has a vagina or not is completely unimportant, because society has no category for him and its approval for him or lack thereof doesn't make any difference sideways or lengthwise.

You might as well put out your big revelation that Superman is biologically a Kryptonian female. It just doesn't matter, because he still doesn't have any peers. The issues that transgendered people face stem primarily from the fact that they are excluded from normal social groups. But if you're already royalty, it doesn't fucking matter, because you're in a social group of one anyway.

Making a transgendered character be also a Prince and a unique exalted is about the least courageous or interesting way you could possibly include a transgendered character in anything. You've already removed them from all the social conventions by making them an exalted prince. At that point, their exclusion from gender roles no longer has the slightest give-a-fuck and you've successfully managed to not have to write about any specific transgender issues at all. At best it's a transgender power fantasy where "I don't need your categorical acceptance anyway", but you could have the same fantasy with an Alchemical.

-Username17

[FatR]

That's kinda offensive. You're dismissing any attempt by the exalted writing team to address LGBT themes or issues that transgendered people face as a marketing gimmick.

Because it transparently IS a marketing gimmick. As this very thread evidences. As in, you're using it to market the game to us, right now. I don't think that's gonna work, though.

For some people whatever Exalted actually is or was has long stopped mattering. What's important is hating it, whatever it is. Which is okay. Sharks gotta swim; toolbag gotta be a toolbag.

Paid marketers gotta market, shills gotta use outdated memes to defend their bad game.

[Plague of Hats]

Paid marketers gotta market, shills gotta use outdated memes to defend their bad game.

Freelance RPG writing pays so well; who wouldn't?

[FatR]

Freelance RPG writing pays so well; who wouldn't?

And that's the reason why you supplement your income by marketing Exalted on the net, I guess?

[theye1]

Wait, what "issues" did they address?

How about social convention in which they're repeatedly treated as the wrong gender? Or how about about issues regarding transgender sexuality?

But if you're already royalty, it doesn't fucking matter, because you're in a social group of one anyway.

I think that's just a name, he's not an actual prince.

Freelance RPG writing pays so well; who wouldn't?

And that's the reason why you supplement your income by marketing Exalted on the net, I guess?

Do you have any evidence or are using ad hominem arguments?

[darkmaster]

Wait, what "issues" did they address? Prince Diamond may well be transgendered, but he is also an exalt who lives above the law and above common people in every possible way.

How about social convention in which they're repeatedly treated as the wrong gender? Or how about about issues regarding transgender sexuality?Oh, I guess I wasn't thinking when I wrote that.

Fixed that for you.

Freelance RPG writing pays so well; who wouldn't?

And that's the reason why you supplement your income by marketing Exalted on the net, I guess?

Do you have any evidence or are using ad hominem arguments?

You mean aside from the fact that Hats has 5 posts on this forum and all of them are in this thread defending Exalted? Why would you need more?

[Starmaker]

Do you have any evidence or are using ad hominem arguments?

What ad hominem arguments? YOU started this thread, and people were bashing Exalted in it before Plague of Hats started posting. No one here derives their criticism of Exalted from a specific marketer's personality.

[Lago PARANOIA]

In fact, I'm not even offended in the slighest by mentions of rape in 1E Lunars. Rape is about the least unpleasant thing one can expect from a barbarian invasion, really. What I'm offended in 1E Lunars is that the books not only presents it, and much worse things, as a norm, the players are supposed to at least implicitly accept, if they are to interact with the Lunars' society at all, but apparently does not consider the idea, that the values of said society might be, in fact, not very good.

What offended me about 1E Lunars wasn't so much the naked depravity nor the sensationalization of it. It was because like a lot of Exalted it dressed up the depravity as a power fantasy while also going out of its way to assure the player that it wasn't also okay but heroic. That's what pushes the book from shlock to horrific.

[mikal768]

Wait, what "issues" did they address? Prince Diamond may well be transgendered, but he is also an exalt who lives above the law and above common people in every possible way. Whether he has a vagina or not is completely unimportant, because society has no category for him and its approval for him or lack thereof doesn't make any difference sideways or lengthwise.

This is ignorant of the line at best, disingenuous on average, and a complete attempt at lying at worse.

Exalted has entire societies with transgendered segments in it, one of which I believe this character is a part of. If anything, this is a champion of that segment of people, with hundreds if not thousands of other peers. To claim that this character is in a vacuum is silly.

Making a transgendered character be also a Prince and a unique exalted is about the least courageous or interesting way you could possibly include a transgendered character in anything.

Then it's a good thing they've had long established transgendered societies and characters prior to this.

You've already removed them from all the social conventions by making them an exalted prince. At that point, their exclusion from gender roles no longer has the slightest give-a-fuck and you've successfully managed to not have to write about any specific transgender issues at all. At best it's a transgender power fantasy where "I don't need your categorical acceptance anyway", but you could have the same fantasy with an Alchemical.

-Username17

Except again, they have an entire transgendered society and it's not just one special snowflake poster child.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Good old fashioned tokenism. Is there anything you can't do? Aside from being honest that tokenism isn't supposed to convince the out-group, but assuage the feelings of the in-group?

[mikal768]

Good old fashioned tokenism. Is there anything you can't do? Aside from being honest that tokenism isn't supposed to convince the out-group, but assuage the feelings of the in-group?

So how is it tokenism, when you have one member of a society of hundreds or thousands who's a core character? That's like saying that Redgar is the token human in DnD because they wanted to have a wide variety of characters.

[Lago PARANOIA]

So how is it tokenism, when you have one member of a society of hundreds or thousands who's a core character?

Exalted has entire societies with transgendered segments in it, one of which I believe this character is a part of. If anything, this is a champion of that segment of people, with hundreds if not thousands of other peers. To claim that this character is in a vacuum is silly.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tokenism

the policy or practice of making only a symbolic effort (as to desegregate)

You're apparently not understanding what the core criticism behind tokenism, otherwise you wouldn't have used such an inane rhetorical response. Seriously, are you not aware of how extremely lame that post was? Who gives a shit if it's hundreds of thousands or even millions? How about telling us the impact it has on the setting?

Protip: Squirreling away some Chekov's Token and then trotting it out (only to put it away when the Big Bad Critics start 'unfairly' ripping on someone else's work) is a core tactic of tokenism. Inflating the impact of what was supposed to be innocuous setting dressing is also a core tactic of tokenism, with the added bonus with that it gives plausible deniability to whoever originally put it in there.

Protip 2: The best way to show that your creation really is progressive and inclusive is to let it speak for itself. That's not always possible or even ideal (see ToS Star Trek) but if you're really trying to make an egalitarian statement you'd better have your shit together. So far, you've just shown sizzle and no steak. How about showing how said communities and that character influence the themes and progression of the setting? It doesn't have to be anything setting breakingly-huge, but as I said earlier the millions hundreds of thousands of transpeople trotted out as a statistic is just tokenism if you leave it as that.

[mikal768]

You're apparently not understanding what the core criticism behind tokenism, otherwise you wouldn't have used such an inane rhetorical response. Seriously, are you not aware of how extremely lame that post was? Who gives a shit if it's hundreds of thousands or even millions? How about telling us the impact it has on the setting?

Ummm it doesn't have an impact? It's just one of however many other groups? Why does it need to have an impact?

Protip: Squirreling away some Chekov's Token and then trotting it out (only to put it away when necessary) is a core tactic of tokenism. Inflating the impact of what was supposed to be innocuous setting dressing is also a core tactic of tokenism, with the added bonus with that it gives plausible deniability to whoever originally put it in there.

Who is inflating anything? Last time I checked they're not out there screaming in 45 point type "Look! We got ourselves LGTB characters! We're so OPEN!!"

A token is something where they showcase something as special, and use it as the only one in the group because of that. This character isn't that currently. So... my argument is correct. It's not a token character. It's a character that is transgendered, nothing more, nothing less.

This forum used to actually have decent ideas and open minds about things. It's getting sad to see how much just... bitterness, bile, and echo chambering of statements occurs now.

[Lago PARANOIA]

A token is something where they showcase something as special, and use it as the only one in the group because of that.

A token is not the same thing as tokenism in much the same way that a libertarian is not the same thing as libertarianism.

Tokenism, as you will read on several dictionaries, is a phony but symbolic effort to show compliance with an ideology or policy, usually that of inclusion or egalitarianism. You can have tokens without promoting tokenism. See: Star Trek the Original Series. But promoting tokens to a visibility that they wouldn't, were not for being monitored, have plausibly had is the most common way to promote tokenism.

I'm willing to entertain the idea that Exalted is in fact inclusive and daring, at least on transgender visibility. However, the defense put forth by you and theye1 is pretty fucking pathetic. You're just engaging in the standard fronting tactics we've seen many of times before. Maybe Exalted really is more inclusive than I'm giving it credit for despite the bestiality rape camps and unapologetic social darwinism and you two just suck at arguing.

But this?

Ummm it doesn't have an impact? It's just one of however many other groups? Why does it need to have an impact?

Is not convincing.

[mikal768]

Why isn't it convincing? Hell, why does it need to be convincing? You claim that this is tokenism without actually providing proof that it is. I'm waiting for you to actually make a claim with backup before attempting to actually do work to refute it.

You claim that we suck at arguing when you haven't even made an actual point with backup information supporting it?

[darkmaster]

Refusing to make a point because you don't want to reeks of you not actually having a point to make. The argument Lego's making as I'm reading it is there's no evidence to support the inclusion of transgendered people in the exalted setting is anything more than a token attempt to make exalted seem more inclusive. The fact that there's an iconic character who is transgendered not being counted because they are an exalt and therefore categorically above society and therefore don't actually have to interact with any stigma being transgendered might carry.

The request, then, is quite reasonable, give examples of how the explicit existence of transgendered people actually has weight in the setting or stop clumsily arguing in circles.

[mikal768]

And I'm waiting to see what actual proof he has to back up his claim that it's tokenism beyond he says so.

Exalted has had openly LGBT characters and societies/parts of societies for years, across all editions.

There have been lesbian characters, gay characters, bi characters, and pansexual characters. A transsexual character is nothing different.

Claiming it's LGBT tokenism when one looks at the setting as a whole without actual proof beyond "dur hur hur what's the IMPACT" is not a valid argument, when there are dozens of other examples of LGBT items out there.

It isn't new. It's not from left field. These guys have been part of the setting since the early days of the setting. So yeah, unless someone actually has some sort of evidence that this is actual tokenism, I don't see a reason to argue their half-assed claims because they simply aren't valid as presented. They're just the bleating of the sheep.

Waits for his points to be twisted and purposefully misconstrued again in 3...2...

[Lago PARANOIA]

Why isn't it convincing? Hell, why does it need to be convincing?

You claim that we suck at arguing when you haven't even made an actual point with backup information supporting it?

Okay, I'm making an abductive argument rather than a deductive one here. So like I said earlier, I'm open to a counter-example. However, from what I can see:

1.) White Wolf and Exalted especially is not egalitarian. If nothing else the book shamelessly promotes just world theory and social darwinism as moral and heroic. While these things aren't necessarily incompatible with certain aspects of egalitarianism, they by and large are.

2.) White Wolf has a history of making statements just for shock value. And one of the best way to make a shock statement, as any New Atheist will tell you, is to make a rhetorical statement that exposes the hypocrisy or cognitive dissonance or just plain wrongness of the value system you're going against. While I think that it's grossly unfair to suggest that Joey dated John just to rub it in her parent's faces without knowing anything about the two, White Wolf has cried wolf so many times that I'm not giving them the benefit for the doubt.

3.) Tokenism is much easier to do in fiction than in real life. In real life, it's actually pretty fucking hard to have a traditionally male-dominated business engage in only symbolic outreach in which the CEO, CFO, and half of the employees are female. At that point, tokenism is indistinguishable from actual inclusion.

But say, you were making a potboiler space opera. People complaining that Trek Wars is a Mukokuseki-fest? No problem! Just tell your animators to use different facial styles and to use the brown pen some more. In a written medium, that's even easier. With a few keystrokes, the lineage of leaders and kings are all diverse and shit. Off-screen, of course. Another few keystrokes, and BAM. Millions Hundreds of thousands of transfolk willed into existence. Just need a couple of paragraphs mentioning this fact, a backhand mention by one of the characters, and the artifact sword was wielded by a famous transmale.

Now, of course just because faux-diversity is easy to implement in fiction doesn't mean that there's actual tokenism going on. It doesn't even mean such even if the diversity doesn't affect the main story. However, if said diversity is superficial and the creator and/or supporters crow about it a lot, that should throw up a big red tokenism flag.

[mikal768]

Okay, I'm making an abductive argument rather than a deductive one here. So like I said earlier, I'm open to a counter-example. However, from what I can see:

1.) White Wolf and Exalted especially is not egalitarian. If nothing else the book shamelessly promotes just world theory and social darwinism as moral and heroic. While these things aren't necessarily incompatible with certain aspects of egalitarianism, they by and large are.

Who said that the books are trying to promote egalitarianism? I certainly didn't. So there's strawman number one.

2.) White Wolf has a history of making statements just for shock value. And one of the best way to make a shock statement, as any New Atheist will tell you, is to make a rhetorical statement that exposes the hypocrisy or cognitive dissonance or just plain wrongness of the value system you're going against. While I think that it's grossly unfair to suggest that Joey dated John just to rub it in her parent's faces without knowing anything about the two, White Wolf has cried wolf so many times that I'm not giving them the benefit for the doubt.

Except that the society the character has come from has been around for most if not all of the games lifecycle, and there have been numerous other characters that are LGBT. Nor has WW/OPP actually made any statements about the character except for saying they're transgendered and from the established society.

3.) Tokenism is much easier to do in fiction than in real life. In real life, it's actually pretty fucking hard to have a traditionally male-dominated business engage in only symbolic outreach in which the CEO, CFO, and half of the employees are female. At that point, tokenism is indistinguishable from actual inclusion.

But say, you were making a potboiler space opera. People complaining that Trek Wars is a Mukokuseki-fest? No problem! Just tell your animators to use different facial styles and to use the brown pen some more. In a written medium, that's even easier. With a few keystrokes, the lineage of leaders and kings are all diverse and shit. Off-screen, of course. Another few keystrokes, and BAM. Millions Hundreds of thousands of transfolk willed into existence. Just need a couple of paragraphs mentioning this fact, a backhand mention by one of the characters, and the artifact sword was wielded by a famous transmale.

Except that again, this is a character from an already established society, one that actually is a major part of the country it's in.

Now, of course just because faux-diversity is easy to implement in fiction doesn't mean that there's actual tokenism going on. It doesn't even mean such even if the diversity doesn't affect the main story. However, if said diversity is superficial and/or the creator crows about it a lot, that should throw up a big red tokenism flag.

Yes, if those conditions were met, the flag should go up. But since the diversity of LGBT characters and societies has been there since the start of the game over 10 years ago, and the creators haven't said much, if anything beyond "the characters from X" and the fans know that X is a transsexual society, those conditions have not been met. In fact, most or almost all of the talk regarding the transsexual aspect has been from players and fans of the system.

[mikal768]

In fact, here's the actual "intro" to the character

Prince Diamond was born a woman, but he is a Dereth, which means he is socially and legally considered a man. It may be worthy of noting that Diamond’s mother was not a Delzahn woman.The Delzahn have a custom called far-riding, a quasi-spiritual journey Delzahn riders make in order to absolve someone of a crime. Far rides are usually made to restore something that was lost. In most cases, they happen due to a loss of honor, pride, or life.

In other words, the Delzahn rides eternally, in search of something he can never find. Yet they are bound by their oath, and so they search ever onward, pushing their horses to greater and greatest distances and undertaking more desperate and impossible causes in order to gain something that might equal what was lost. In most cases, the far rider dies in his pursuit of the impossible, and only then is the crime absolved. Because of the greatness of the deeds of several far riders throughout history, they have become a subject of legend and myth with the Delzahn people.

Far riders are revered as the greatest heroes of the Delzahn, but they are also the most reviled. All Delzahn must follow two rules if they encounter a far rider:
1) They must attack him or show him hospitality. If they show him hospitality they can never acknowledge his identity or his past. He is a stranger.
2) They must choose to attack or assist him. They can never ignore him.

Far rides produce tremendous heroes whose stories are told again and again by the Delzahn. They are celebrated as easily as they are spat upon. Often only a far rider’s death restores his family’s dignity and releases his subject from punishment. Many legendary far rides end with the hero riding into a heroic death, often after going on an impossible quest that could only end in his demise.

Prince Diamond’s far ride brings him to Jiara. He sees the war Perfect Soul is waging against House Mnemon and feels compelled. He believes that Jiara is possibly the last stop on his long and endless journey.

From http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.as ... &m=1632110

So... yeah, one sentence mentioning he was born a woman and comes from a society where you can switch socially and legally. Then dozens of other sentences talking about the character itself.

Doesn't look like the devs beating us over the head with it, just explaining how the Dereth work, for those who don't know it, before going into loving detail on the new fluff of the far rider.

If this was tokenism in effect, wouldn't he have talked more about the Dereth (even though established), why he decided to be a man, etc. etc. instead of doing so?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Who said that the books are trying to promote egalitarianism?

Look, if you're doing genuine outreach, you're doing it because of your core ideology of egalitarianism. If you're not, then your entire operation is a sham.

Tokenism is stupid, but the other common motives for doing outreach without believing in egalitarianism are downright vile. If you're really trying to defend White Wolf, saying that they're doing LGBT outreach but don't believe in egalitarianism is much more of a disservice than just saying that they're engaging in bog-standard tokenism.

Yes, if those conditions were met, the flag should go up. But since the diversity of LGBT characters and societies has been there since the start of the game over 10 years ago, and the creators haven't said much, if anything beyond "the characters from X" and the fans know that X is a transsexual society, those conditions have not been met.

Okay, so my argument is that the supposed LGBT outreach of stuff like the Diamond Prince is phony because:

• Sincere inclusion is anathema to the book's relentless pushing of just-world theory and social darwinism.
• White Wolf, even in Exalted, has a history of engaging in insincere shock statements. And of course one of the best ways to do shock statements is to buttress the underlying message with something that's humanistically unobjectionable, but aimed at an audience who have cultural prejudices that they can't rationally support?
• Diversity is harder to fake in some situations than others. In writing, the limitations of the medium make faux-diversity is really easy.
• However, even in writing you can tell faux-diversity from actual diversity by measuring how much of an impact said diversity has on the themes, characterization, and plotlines of a particular story.

Having said all this, you utterly failed to poke a hole in my list. I think you think that you tore down bullet points 1 and 4, but if you think that Except that again, this is a character from an already established society, one that actually is a major part of the country it's in. somehow contradicts #4 as-is, you are sorely mistaken. I've already talked about point 1. And hell, you even said that point 5 is upheld in your next quote reply.

In fact, most or almost all of the talk regarding the transsexual aspect has been from players and fans of the system.

Okay, so your contention is that the fans are promoting tokenism? Not the creators? Like, the creators just took the diversity as a matter-of-course but the fans were so desperate to find a redeeming aspect of the game that they pounced on it like half-frozen squirrels trying to warm themselves up on a bug zapper? Fair enough.

in that case, maybe you and your friends should stop trying to embarrass the company so much then?