[Ars Magica 5] OOC: It's PeIm for darkness, not PeCo

[momothefiddler]

Ooh, that one sounds pretty cool too. I'd expect to be in over my head, which could be entertaining.

Are the Ceremonial Magic options on Societates pp58-60 (and the various other rule systems in there) specifically for Jerbiton? They don't seem to be specific to the house, but there sure are a lot of rules shoved into the house listing and I'm confused.

[Laertes]

Ceremonial Casting is something everyone can use, but is predominantly done by the Jerbiton. It's not a Mystery, just a technique popular among them. Similarly, the Tremere and Flambeau books have details on special techniques they use, which everyone else can use too if they decide to implement them. This is as distinct from the Mysteries stuff, which outsider magi can't do at all unless they're initiated into it.

[momothefiddler]

Cool. It seems like something that would be of use to Rusticani, considering they get Weak Spontaneous Magic and that applies to their Craft Magic.

Are the "props" bonuses applied once, or once per Art, or what? I'd have assumed once, but the examples given tie things to specific Arts. It also says that the bonus is based on the mystical significance and that some props must be made from "rare materials", but then gives bonuses in the chart purely based on size. Are there just more detailed rules somewhere else that I'm not finding, like with the Rego stuff?

[Prak]

Is there still room? I'd be interested in giving AM a try (never played before. ...though I think I have an order book lying around somewhere...). I'll need to look through the book to get some idea of how things work, but I'm very curious.

Is there an order of demon pact sorcerers, or similar? Or would it be an esoteric Ex Miscellania tradition? Or would getting magic through dealing with demons be generally a Very Bad Idea(TM)?

[momothefiddler]

Dealing with demons is one of the few things that will get you permabanned by the Order, from what I've read.

By permabanned I mean killed.

...If you're caught. There are hints in the core book that this is not necessarily the case, but I'm not sure how it works.

[Laertes]

Cool. It seems like something that would be of use to Rusticani, considering they get Weak Spontaneous Magic and that applies to their Craft Magic.

Weak Spontaneous Magic is a pretty harsh flaw, sadly.

Are the "props" bonuses applied once, or once per Art, or what? I'd have assumed once, but the examples given tie things to specific Arts. It also says that the bonus is based on the mystical significance and that some props must be made from "rare materials", but then gives bonuses in the chart purely based on size. Are there just more detailed rules somewhere else that I'm not finding, like with the Rego stuff?

I'll look these up when I get book access.

Is there still room? I'd be interested in giving AM a try (never played before. ...though I think I have an order book lying around somewhere...). I'll need to look through the book to get some idea of how things work, but I'm very curious.

Hi Prak, I believe we're getting to the stage where people who've expressed interest but not posted in the thread are going to be moved to the back of the queue. My maximum size for this is probably five players. Momothefiddler mentioned two other people, but unless they turn up soonish I'm going to open their places to others and you'll definitely be first on the list.

Is there an order of demon pact sorcerers, or similar? Or would it be an esoteric Ex Miscellania tradition? Or would getting magic through dealing with demons be generally a Very Bad Idea(TM)?

Getting magic through dealing with anything big and scary falls under the general heading of Theurgy, which is something that mainstream Hermetic theory has successfully divorced itself from. Bonisagus's theory elegantly puts magic in the hands of the caster, and reduces it to a (semi-) scientific and rational process, rather than being up to the capricious whims of unknowable and alien entitities.

However, anyone who's ever seen players handling a new edition of a game knows, if they can't find their favourite broken bits they'll houserule them back in. Therefore, there are numerous mystery cults which have managed to introduce Theurgy back into Hermetic theory. These aren't like the mainstream Mystery Houses; they tend to be much smaller and more secretive groups.

I would rather not start off with Esoteric Mystery content because it's not particularly newbie-friendly; it's very much a book of stuff aimed at the jaded veterans who delight in very weird crunchy stuff. However, it is there, so if you really want to do it then I have nothing against introducing it later in the campaign.

Dealing directly with demons is known as diabolism and, as momothefiddler notes, if you're found guilty of it then the Order will play a fun game called see how long it takes all thousand-odd of us to hunt down and kill you, with all your earthly possessions forming the prize for the winner.

By "found guilty", I mean "the matter came up at one of the seven-yearly Tribunals the Order holds, and more people voted to kill you than voted to clear you." Due process is not a thing the Order holds very dear to its heart.

[Laertes]

For clarity:

Ars Magica's cosmology recognises four distinct and different sources of supernatural power, known as the Four Realms: the Divine, the Infernal, Faerie and Magic. As such, "making pacts with demons" is qualitatively different from "making pacts with magical creatures", which is in turn different to doing it with angels or faeries.

Every supernatural power must be aligned with one of these four. There are some small areas of overlap, but generally it's pretty clear which one you're dealing with and they're all flavoured pretty distinctly.

Prak: If by "making deals with demons", you mean specifically infernal demons, then that's diabolism and you'll get hunted down and killed for that. However, if you're okay with making your unspeakable pacts with faeries or magical beings, then that's much more doable. Doing it with magical beings is called Theurgy and there's a mystery for that. Doing it with faeries is called "being a Merinita magus", and faeries can be every bit as badass as elder dragons or archdemons.

Therefore, if what inspires you to play a magician is to stand at the ancient standing stones on the bare hill when the stars are right, and shriek "COME FORTH FROM THE ABYSS BETWEEN TIME" then yes, you can. There's a system for it and everything.

[momothefiddler]

Momothefiddler mentioned two other people, but unless they turn up soonish I'm going to open their places to others and you'll definitely be first on the list.

I'd like to request another day or so here, at least for one of them, whose graduation is today, so he's been super busy the past few days and will likely be not terribly busy starting tomorrow.

'Course if you say no I understand. I'm surprised at the number of people who want in!

[Laertes]

I'd like to request another day or so here, at least for one of them, whose graduation is today, so he's been super busy the past few days and will likely be not terribly busy starting tomorrow.

'Course if you say no I understand. I'm surprised at the number of people who want in!

Shall we call it a Monday deadline, then? By Monday I'd like people who're involved to give me at least the following:
- Indication as to whether they're in or not
- What sort of character they want to play (a one-liner, like "I want to play a shapeshifter who does weather magic", is entirely adequate and is probably preferable to a detailed biography and full character sheet at this stage in the game.)
- What sort of campaign they want to play (this can include voting for a suggestion from someone else.)

We do have a pleasant amount of interest, which is nice.

[momothefiddler]

Does a magus with Enduring Magic know the result of the die roll on casting or is it like "this'll end at some point between sundown today and sundown five days from now, I dunno"?

[Laertes]

Does a magus with Enduring Magic know the result of the die roll on casting or is it like "this'll end at some point between sundown today and sundown five days from now, I dunno"?

They know the result of the roll, but only after the spell is cast. (This combos beautifully with Harnessed Magic.)

[momothefiddler]

Yeah, I figured it'd fit well with Harnessed Magic.

---

SO work was really boring so I was running numbers and I realized:

If I max out my Artes Liberales,
and I max out my Philosiphiae,
and I use the largest props possible...

I can use Ceremonial Casting to spend a bunch of extra time to get a whopping +0.6 magnitudes on my spell.

Am I missing something here? Is it really that shitty? I hadn't realized until I was considering examples that you basically divide by 5 twice.

EDIT: And does Spell Foci only apply to formulaic spells, or can that work with Spontaneous, too?

[Prak]

Yeah, I kind of figured diabolism is a bad idea. It usually is, which sucks for me because I like demons and shit.

However--

For clarity:

Ars Magica's cosmology recognises four distinct and different sources of supernatural power, known as the Four Realms: the Divine, the Infernal, Faerie and Magic. As such, "making pacts with demons" is qualitatively different from "making pacts with magical creatures", which is in turn different to doing it with angels or faeries.

Every supernatural power must be aligned with one of these four. There are some small areas of overlap, but generally it's pretty clear which one you're dealing with and they're all flavoured pretty distinctly.

Prak: If by "making deals with demons", you mean specifically infernal demons, then that's diabolism and you'll get hunted down and killed for that. However, if you're okay with making your unspeakable pacts with faeries or magical beings, then that's much more doable. Doing it with magical beings is called Theurgy and there's a mystery for that. Doing it with faeries is called "being a Merinita magus", and faeries can be every bit as badass as elder dragons or archdemons.

Therefore, if what inspires you to play a magician is to stand at the ancient standing stones on the bare hill when the stars are right, and shriek "COME FORTH FROM THE ABYSS BETWEEN TIME" then yes, you can. There's a system for it and everything.

This is a perfectly acceptable alternative. I'll start poking at the books and trying to get a character concept to fall out for me over the weekend.

[Laertes]

Serf's parma, but I seem to remember that ceremonial casting becomes worth it if you cast fatiguing spontaneous magic. Naturally with a Rusticani this isn't a possibility.

Ceremonial casting is also heavily worth it if your character concept is all about mundane academia, because then you'd be buying Artes Liberales and Philosophiae anyway.

[momothefiddler]

Serf's parma, but I seem to remember that ceremonial casting becomes worth it if you cast fatiguing spontaneous magic.

Even then, tiny props give you +0.1 magnitudes and huge props give you +0.5. The amount of bonus stacking that's necessary to get anything useful is outrageous.

Ceremonial casting is also heavily worth it if your character concept is all about mundane academia, because then you'd be buying Artes Liberales and Philosophiae anyway.

Yeah. If you maxed both of them anyway and you're casting fatiguing magic (and if you have the time to cast Ceremonial, why not), then you can get a full magnitude out of it. That's ok, I guess.

[Laertes]

EDIT: And does Spell Foci only apply to formulaic spells, or can that work with Spontaneous, too?

Magical focus works with everything: spell invention, enchanting, formulaic spells, spontaneous magic, Rituals, certamen, familiat binding - if anyone invented a whole new way to use magic then it would count for that too. This is why a vital piece of advice to new players is to always take a Minor Magical Focus unless you're taking a Major one. It's the best minor virtue you will ever take and I have not regretted it once.

It's also why most GMs will let Tremere take a minor magical focus in addition to Certamen: not having access to them harms Tremere very badly indeed.

This is a perfectly acceptable alternative. I'll start poking at the books and trying to get a character concept to fall out for me over the weekend

I look forward to it. If it helps, I actually find that one of the best things to inspire me is the Major Hermetic Virtue. You can only take one, you should take one, and it informs the rest of your character in a substantial way. HTH, for example, wants to take a Major Focus which defines his character as a combat mage, no matter which Forms he takes.

[momothefiddler]

Spell Foci is the minor virtue that Rusticani get that lets them use various trinkets as part of their spells for a bonus, but then that spell can't be used without the corresponding focus.

I'm gonna guess the answer on that will need to wait for you to have your books, then.

[Prak]

So, I stepped outside top get in my car, and ideas started percolating. I poked at the major hermetic virtues for a bit, and looked at the houses last night.

This all came together towards a sort of hexer character, and a possible spell concept-

Blow It Out Your Arse
The targets organs immediately rot and are violently expelled via their anus

That would be basically purely Rego Corpus, right, since rot is within the natural motions of the body, and expelling the material is a matter of muscle movement? Just from what's osmosed into me from this thread, I'm guessing ReCo (voice, instant)?

I'm considering a Byoeranimalmagusthenameofwhichicantremember with a heartbeast of squirrel and the Mythic Blood major hermetic, descended from Ratatosk, the squirrel who scampered up and down Yggdrasil carrying messages (read: insults) between the eagle in its boughs and Nidhoggr at its roots.

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

I like door #3. I have done too many "normal" spring covenants over the years. I don't mind vanilla PCs but the setting needs to not be boringly underpowered.

I'm currently running game a high powered game that started in 788, so I'll be able restrain myself a bit.

[Laertes]

Spell Foci is the minor virtue that Rusticani get that lets them use various trinkets as part of their spells for a bonus, but then that spell can't be used without the corresponding focus.

I'm gonna guess the answer on that will need to wait for you to have your books, then.

Ah, my mistake. Spell Focus rather than Magical Focus.

Houses of Hermes: Societas, p132:

Rustic magi usually carry many small tools and arcane objects that can be used as spell foci to boost their spontaneous spells in this way

So yes, you can use it for spontaneous spells.

Now, to the earlier question:

Are the "props" bonuses applied once, or once per Art, or what? I'd have assumed once, but the examples given tie things to specific Arts. It also says that the bonus is based on the mystical significance and that some props must be made from "rare materials", but then gives bonuses in the chart purely based on size. Are there just more detailed rules somewhere else that I'm not finding, like with the Rego stuff?

Ars Magica main book, p110, otherwise known as the Big Page of Bonuses. They're applied as a bonus to your casting total if they match the Arts or the effect of the spell. For example, if you use a ruby as a prop, you can get its bonus on any fire-related effects.

[Laertes]

Blow It Out Your Arse
The targets organs immediately rot and are violently expelled via their anus

That would be basically purely Rego Corpus, right, since rot is within the natural motions of the body, and expelling the material is a matter of muscle movement? Just from what's osmosed into me from this thread, I'm guessing ReCo (voice, instant)?

Rego's "natural motions" does not include growth and decay; those are covered by Creo and Perdo, respectively.

However, what you have described there is a pretty nasty PeCo spell. I would stat it as follows. (Note that while defecation is a Rego Corpus effect, since it doesn't appreciably enhance the effectiveness of the spell I'm happy to rule that it falls under the cosmetic-effects-only clause and so doesn't count as a requisite.)

Blow It Out Your Arse
Level 30
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
The targets organs immediately rot and are violently expelled via their anus. This inflicts an Incapacitating Wound and necessitates the purchase of new trousers.
(Base 20, +2 Voice)

I'm considering a Bjornaer with a heartbeast of squirrel and the Mythic Blood major hermetic, descended from Ratatosk, the squirrel who scampered up and down Yggdrasil carrying messages (read: insults) between the eagle in its boughs and Nidhoggr at its roots.

That's awesome. It ties into the Bjornaer cosmology very tightly too. If I may make a suggestion for your spell-like ability, Rising Ire (Ars Magica, p148), no gestures, ten levels of Penetration, might be a good one.

[Laertes]

...and while I was looking up Perdo Corpus stuff I found the answer to a much earlier question:

If you inflicted blindness magically, it would take a season to recover from totally incapacitatingly blind to very slight vision, then another month to merely blurred vision, then a week to normal vision. That's assuming they have excellent medical care; if they don't have good apothecaries and chirurgeons, or magical healing, then there's a very good chance that they may simply die.

That's measured from the point at which the Perdo effect wore off, of course. With Moon duration and Enduring Magic you could easily make that a real issue if you really hated somebody:

Now You See Me...
Level 40
R: Eye, D: Moon, T: Ind
Blinds a target, leaving their eyes blank and milky white. This heals as a Heavy Wound.
The spell was invented by Genseric of Tytalus during his long rivalry with Timosthenes of Tytalus. Not wishing to call down the wrath of the order for killing his foe, Genseric chose instead to demonstrate his power and cruelty in a more sadistic fashion. His Enduring Magic and his target's Deficient Intellego meant that Timosthenes spent several seasons quite unable to perform even basic tasks.
(Base 20, +1 Eye, +3 Moon)

[Laertes]

I like door #3. I have done too many "normal" spring covenants over the years. I don't mind vanilla PCs but the setting needs to not be boringly underpowered.

Apart from you, however, this is a party of totally new players. As such, they might like to get some experience in a "normal" spring covenant, even if both of us have seen enough of them over the years.

At least it isn't the stereotypical "castle on a hill by a faerie forest" setup, though.

I'm currently running game a high powered game that started in 788, so I'll be able restrain myself a bit.

That sounds badass. What year are you in now? Have you gone fully generational yet? In my current game, my players are already settling down to play their own apprentices, since the old magi are withdrawing into their labs and becoming semi-retired.

[momothefiddler]

So yes, you can use it for spontaneous spells.

Oh. Cool. Sorry, I missed that entirely.

Ars Magica main book, p110, otherwise known as the Big Page of Bonuses. They're applied as a bonus to your casting total if they match the Arts or the effect of the spell. For example, if you use a ruby as a prop, you can get its bonus on any fire-related effects.

Wait, those are the same thing as Societas 58-59? Are those not normally applicable to non-ceremonial casting; just to enchanting?

[Laertes]

Wait, those are the same thing as Societas 58-59? Are those not normally applicable to non-ceremonial casting; just to enchanting?

The Shape and Material Table, better known as the Big Page of Bonuses in order to avoid confusing it with the similarly-named Material and Size Table, is normally an enchanting-only thing. Rusticani get to apply it to their spells as well. It's what makes them extra-special.

Remember that the bonus is capped at Magic Theory when casting the spell normally or enchanting an item, and at your relevant Craft Ability when the spell is being crafted Rusticani-style. Which is why Rusticani like their Craft Abilities.