Zero Buzz on 5E...Is It Dead Out The Gate?

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Chamomile
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Post by Chamomile »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:The only exceptions I can think of are Champions, FATE Core, and D&D.
And without exception, those rely on campaign settings too. They just cheat by using other people's campaign settings. D&D relies heavily on its various campaign settings, of course, but Champions and FATE rely on letting you play in someone's copyrighted campaign setting without saying it out loud. When people want to play X-Men or Justice League, they usually use Champions or Mutants and Masterminds, and FATE is specifically there to allow you to model any high-adventure story about a small team of competent heroes. Granted, it accomplishes this by only being about 3/4s of a system and providing helpful advice for putting in all genre-specific systems yourself, but it's still true that the way it sells itself is by allowing you to run any of X-Files, X-Men, Forgotten Realms, or Kingdom Hearts, all using the same engine.

It's no secret that the differences between a great system and a terrible one are lost on most people, because when you sit down with a bunch of friends at a table it turns out the thing that really makes the experience is the entire group sharing a creative spirit. Whether that spirit is very simple and juvenile like indulging in a beer and pretzels "kill orcs and get bitches" power fantasy or the kind of complex and emotionally resonant improv that Vampire players wish they could have, the most important thing to creating that spirit is the fluff, not the crunch. That's why people can go around recommending Unknown Armies with a straight face. That's why World of Darkness is popular despite being an objectively worse dicepool system to Shadowrun in almost every measurable way, and why New World of Darkness collapsed despite being significantly less bad.

A good system makes a game faster by having quick and easily referenced or memorized rules to resolve conflicts. It can make the game more conducive to longterm play by giving GMs the tools they need to structure a consistent world faster and easier, which in turn will allow players to create and pursue longterm setting-wide goals without having to rely on the GM being in the right mood at the right time, or understanding how logistics works, or whatever. It can make the game more fun by codifying the power advancement of your standard hero's journey into a character advancement system, which gives you the fun of saving up for something and then purchasing it, and it can stop arguments about character redundancy before they even begin by protecting class niches and keeping things balanced.

But what a good system can't do is make people want to tell a story. A setting people want to inhabit or change, characters people want to meet, villains they want to destroy - those can make people want to tell a story. It doesn't matter how good your rules are, it's your campaign setting that gets people to the table and using those rules in the first place.
Last edited by Chamomile on Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Previn »

ishy wrote:I do believe I heard some rumours somewhere (don't quote me on this) that WotC will focus more on adventures for 5e.
So... they're trying to compete with Pazio. On so many levels: :rofl:
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Post by Mord »

Chamomile wrote:But what a good system can't do is make people want to tell a story. A setting people want to inhabit or change, characters people want to meet, villains they want to destroy - those can make people want to tell a story. It doesn't matter how good your rules are, it's your campaign setting that gets people to the table and using those rules in the first place.
That was beautiful, man.
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Post by K »

Mord wrote:
Chamomile wrote:But what a good system can't do is make people want to tell a story. A setting people want to inhabit or change, characters people want to meet, villains they want to destroy - those can make people want to tell a story. It doesn't matter how good your rules are, it's your campaign setting that gets people to the table and using those rules in the first place.
That was beautiful, man.
Yeh, that whole post nailed it.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Of course, I absolutely despise how that sentiment often morphs into an excuse by the game designers to turn in completely shit rules. You see people trot out this mewling excuse and its feeble variations all the fucking time. All of them being some variation on 'ignore the mounds and mounds of hookworm-infested shit and focus on the flower that poked through!' Or even: 'If you throw enough seeds and imagine the beautiful flowers, this pile of slurry will turn into a beautiful garden!'

[*] Just refluff it! The Ranger's animal companion becomes a skeleton butler and his arrows bolts of non-elemental magic with just some mind caulk.
[*] Well, sure, the Exalted rules are a little sketchy... but what other campaign setting gives you the chance to ROLEPLAY AS EPIC HEROES ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH? There was a dumbass demotivator here somewhere.
[*] Oh, that? Well, the DM can just role zero it in play.
[*] ROLEPLAY not ROLLPLAY.

It's like, okay, people ultimately go to the concert for the music. It doesn't matter how professional your staff is and how comfortable the seating in and how delicious the snacks are, no one is going to go if the only singer you have is Rebecca Black. Nonetheless that still does not give you an excuse to have no security and no plumbing and terrible seats and overpriced beverages as long as you book good bands. If your venue is shitty enough, I'll just listen to the song on the radio or iTunes. And if your TTRPG is shitty enough, I'll just watch television or play a video game or read a book instead.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Cyberzombie »

Blicero wrote: This is admittedly a tangent, but do you really think that's true? I don't deny that a decent campaign setting is beneficial to the product line and probably to the game as a whole. But I have genuine difficulty in seeing it as the most important part.
I do. I can't think of many successful RPGs that don't have well-liked settings but good rules, but I can think of many successful RPGs with garbage rules but beloved settings.

The fall of white wolf though is one of the best examples. NWoD didn't fail because it had bad rules. It failed because it utterly destroyed the flavor of the setting and what people liked about it.
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Post by erik »

Cyberzombie wrote:I can't think of many successful RPGs that don't have well-liked settings
D&D. GURPS.

There. Now you can. Welcome to table top RPGs.
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Post by Foxwarrior »

Chamomile wrote:D&D relies heavily on its various campaign settings, of course
I'm pretty sure it doesn't. I don't think I've met a DM who felt they weren't obligated to spend at least a little bit of time making up their own setting.

Although D&D is almost kitchen sink enough to fall under your explanation of GURPS I suppose. If you stretch and squint a little.
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Post by kzt »

erik wrote: D&D. GURPS.

There. Now you can. Welcome to table top RPGs.
I own far more GURPS setting books then GURPS crunch books.
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Post by Chamomile »

@Foxwarrior:

I have no hard data to argue with (sales data on setting books compared to generic splats like Races Of or whatever would be handy), but even without counting adventure paths, the D&D games I see advertised on forums tend to feature the Forgotten Realms, Eberron, or Dark Sun as often as a homebrewed setting. Factor in people wanting to play or run an adventure path and there's no contest, pre-existing settings outnumber generic settings by about 2:1, though it's difficult to say how much of that is due to adventure paths making the GM's workload much easier and also allowing for a more consistent experience rather than a preference for pre-existing settings. A lot of people play in the Pathfinder setting, but only the usual small cadre of fanboys actually defend it. I think most people in Golarion are only there because that's where the adventure paths are.
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Post by Foxwarrior »

Well, I guess your data is twice as hard as mine.
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Post by RelentlessImp »

kzt wrote:
erik wrote: D&D. GURPS.

There. Now you can. Welcome to table top RPGs.
I own far more GURPS setting books then GURPS crunch books.
Correct me if I'm wrong (I very likely am), but shouldn't GURPS setting and crunch books be virtually identical in nature (having to introduce a lot of mechanics to slot into the system to fit the setting)?
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Post by kzt »

RelentlessImp wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong (I very likely am), but shouldn't GURPS setting and crunch books be virtually identical in nature (having to introduce a lot of mechanics to slot into the system to fit the setting)?
It's been a while since I looked at one, but I think not really the case. For example, Gurps Magic is end-to-end spells and spellcasting. Pretty much 85-95% crunch. A setting book is typically >75% setting description (fluff), with some stats etc. Typically they do things like suggest what you shouldn't allow players to use, not provide lots of new rules.
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Post by hogarth »

Foxwarrior wrote:
Chamomile wrote:D&D relies heavily on its various campaign settings, of course
I'm pretty sure it doesn't. I don't think I've met a DM who felt they weren't obligated to spend at least a little bit of time making up their own setting.
D&D's setting was originally defined in modules: Keep on the Borderlands, Isle of Dread, Tomb of Horrors, Against the Giants, Queen of the Demonweb Pits, Ravenloft, etc. In Ye Olde Days, the number of DMs who started without ever having read one or more of those modules was tiny.
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Post by mlangsdorf »

RelentlessImp wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong (I very likely am), but shouldn't GURPS setting and crunch books be virtually identical in nature (having to introduce a lot of mechanics to slot into the system to fit the setting)?
You're wrong.

GURPS Banestorm (their enormously lackluster fantasy setting) has 180 pages of near total fluff covering geography, legal systems, economics, peasant life, history, etc before it gets to anything resembling crunch. The next 30 pages of crunch are templates and advice on advantages, disadvantages, and skills for use in the setting, but less than a page of anything is new rules. Then there's an 11 page bestiary, and another 7 pages of GM advice.

That's very typical for a GURPS setting book.

Now, the genre books like Monster Hunters or Action have a lot more crunch to them. But they're still very much in the mold of "adapt your favorite urban horror or action movie setting".

I know that people who don't play GURPS buy the settings book more than they buy the crunch books. Fans of the game buy more crunch books, and SJ Games sells more crunch books than setting books by a wide margin.
Last edited by mlangsdorf on Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Covent »

Ok...

So I was looking at the Basic PDF for 5th Ed and well, its raising some flags for me.

I am going to wait until the PHB comes out to do a review as I want all of the data, however I would very much appreciate if anyone would be willing to check me on a few concepts.

1.) AC is determined by Armor and it looks like the max is FullPlate + Shield = 20

2.) Attack bonus is (Proficiency Bonus) + (Str/Dex Mod).

3.) Max stat seems to be 20. This makes the max modifier for a stat +5.

4.) So a fighter can if he rolls a single 18 for ability score generation simply be a Hill dwarf and have +2 str and +2 con. meaning he maxes out his str at level one.

5.) This means his attack routine is (2) + (5)= 7 vs AC which at one should be between 10-17 meaning you have between a 90% and a 55% chance to land an attack.

6.) Your average damage would be (greatsword) 2d6 + 5

7.) Average DPR then would vary between 12.1 and 7.55, with most case falling at around 9.825.

8.) A TWF would have 2 attacks with (Scimitar) [1d6 +5] x 2

9.) Average TWF DPR would be (7.825) x 2 - (4.85) x 2 or 15.65 to 9.7, with most cases aroud 12.675.

10.) A ranged fighter would be (2) Archtype + (2) prof + (5) dex = 9 meaning between a 95% and 65% chance to land an attack, with damage of 1d8 + 5.

11.) Ranged average DPR is 9.25 to 6.3 with most falling around 7.775.

As you level you get more attacks and a 18-20 crit range. It is important to note that the two attacks granted a TWF are only done via a "Bonus action" which means you max out at five attacks and not eight. Using your act twice ability this would put you at 9 attacks vs the Two handed guys eight.


Your ranged attacker will be doing around 60% to 70% of a Two handed guys DPR but will have better dex saves and a very comparable AC.

This means that at level 20 the numbers are as follows:

Two handed: (6) Prof + (5) Stat vs 16-20 AC. (2d6 +5) x 8 = average DPR of 92.8 to 72.0. = 82.4

TWF: (6) Prof + (5) stat vs 16-20 AC. (1d6 + 5) x 9 = average DPR of 65.925 to 50.625. = 58.275

Ranged: (6) prof + (2) Archetype + (5) Stat vs 16-20 AC. (1d8 + 5) x 8 = average DPR of 73.8 to 58.6. = 66.2

This means that the TWF gets worse in comparison as he levels to all other styles and the Two handed fighter gets better while the ranged fighter gets slightly better but not by much.

It also means that it takes longer to kill people as you level up.

Lvl 1 HP.

Wizard (Con 16): 9

Rogue (Con 16): 11

Cleric (Con 16): 11

Fighter (Con 16): 13


Average time to kill level 1:

Two handed: Wizard( 1 round), Rogue (1.119593 rounds [2]), Cleric (1.119593 rounds [2]), Fighter (1.323155 rounds [2])

TWF: Wizard( 1 round), Rogue (1 round), Cleric (1 round), Fighter (1.02564 rounds [2])

Ranged: Wizard( 1.1575563 rounds [2]), Rogue (1.414791 rounds [2]), Cleric (1.414791 rounds [2]), Fighter (1.672 rounds [2])


Lvl 20 HP

Wizard (Con 20): 182

Rogue (Con 20): 203

Cleric (Con 20): 203

Fighter (Con 20): 224


Average time to kill level 20:

Two handed: Wizard( 2.2087 rounds [3]), Rogue (2.464 rounds [3]), Cleric (2.464 rounds [3]), Fighter (2.7184 rounds [3])

TWF: Wizard( 3.123 rounds [4]), Rogue (3.483 rounds [4]), Cleric (3.483 rounds [4]), Fighter (3.844 rounds [4])

Ranged: Wizard( 2.749 rounds [3]), Rogue (3.0665 rounds [4]), Cleric (3.0665 rounds [4]), Fighter (3.384 rounds [4])

This is even using your 3 times a day double action power.

It seems to me that it means go TWF at level one and then ditch it for Two handed by level five.

Worth mentioning is the dueling style which is better than TWF at level 5> but always worse than two handed style...

In short it seems to me that all fighters if optimized would go TWF (Lvl 1)--->Two handed (Lvl 5)--->(lvl 20)

It also means that it take more fighters blowing cooldowns and being optimized at level 20 to kill the same opponent as at level 1.

This seems to mean to me that the fighter as revealed in the basic rule book gets less effective as he levels and not more.

Of course advantage (sucking off the GM) vs Disadvantage (GM wants your girlfriend) will swing these numbers but they should stay relative.

I would love some correction if I am wrong/stupid, but if not...

WHY...??!!??... :disgusted:
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Lago PARANOIA wrote: If a game as unplayable and baroque as Exalted can still have fans almost 12 years later, .
Since we're picking apart math: Exalted 1e shipped in July 2001. It is currently July 2014. :p
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Post by Covent »

Josh_Kablack wrote:
Lago PARANOIA wrote: If a game as unplayable and baroque as Exalted can still have fans almost 12 years later, .
Since we're picking apart math: Exalted 1e shipped in July 2001. It is currently July 2014. :p
1.) I would argue that D&D (All editions) is much more of a math game than anything that White wolf ever put out.

2.) Exalted... Yeah, I bought a limited edition copy of the first edition, read it, and I still feel dirty.

3.) WTF! Since when has it been bad to hold any game to the standard of "The designers had to at least think about the underlying math, instead of being useless fuckwits?"
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Covent wrote: 2.) Exalted... Yeah, I bought a limited edition copy of the first edition, read it, and I still feel dirty.
Yeah, well at least your name isn't in the book. :p

My experience playtesting Exalted was what convinced me that trying to break into the RPG industry would never work out for me and I was better with my really shitty day job,
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Post by Previn »

@Covent

The only things you have correct are 3 where it concerns players and 4. The rest is wrong, either factually, or conceptually.
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Post by Covent »

Previn wrote:@Covent

The only things you have correct are 3 where it concerns players and 4. The rest is wrong, either factually, or conceptually.
Could you explain please? I am trying to parse the basic rules so as to allow for easier assimilation of the 5th Ed PHB and would like to know what I have done wrong.

If you are saying monsters will have different numbers because they are all special snowflakes and use special snowflake rules then ok that is literally more DM MTP codified because Mearls says so.

However if I have missed something basic like how attack rolls are made or the fact that a TWF only gets one extra attack ever period, I would like it explained or at least a "Hey stupid look on page/section (insert here)"
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Post by Orion »

FrankTrollman wrote: time style magic item limits
-Username17
Time style?
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Post by Wiseman »

Orion wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: time style magic item limits
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Time style?
Tome style with a typo.
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Post by ishy »

Covent wrote:Could you explain please? I am trying to parse the basic rules so as to allow for easier assimilation of the 5th Ed PHB and would like to know what I have done wrong.
I haven't read the basic rules yet, but I assume you're bound to pick up some magic items and other stuff during play. Thus you should probably include those for level 20 benchmarks.
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Post by Covent »

ishy wrote:
Covent wrote:Could you explain please? I am trying to parse the basic rules so as to allow for easier assimilation of the 5th Ed PHB and would like to know what I have done wrong.
I haven't read the basic rules yet, but I assume you're bound to pick up some magic items and other stuff during play. Thus you should probably include those for level 20 benchmarks.
I can see this as a valid point, I just did not have access to those numbers.

If so I hope that they add quite a bit so as to allow for a fighter to be as good at 20 as he is at 1, however then you are into the "I need my magic binky or I suck" school of fighter, also called the "Magic sword with some dude attached" fighter type.

This means my first concern is addressed but makes me rage in a different way as I hate the christmas tree or GTFO approach.
Maxus wrote:Being wrong is something that rightly should be celebrated, because now you have a chance to correct and then you'll be better than you were five minutes ago. Perfection is a hollow shell, but perfectibility is something that is to be treasured.
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