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Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:53 pm
by Avoraciopoctules
DSMatticus wrote:Honestly, the current state of the CRPG industry is a pretty great mirror of the current state of the TTRPG industry. Instead of "hey, what do people want? We should do that," it's "hey, what were people doing before most of our players were even born? We should do that."
Divinity Original Sin basically came out of nowhere from an almost bankrupt nobody studio with a record of hastily released, buggy trash, didn't particularly innovate within the medium at all except by adding solid co-op functionality, and made so much goddamn money it ought to have defined the genre for the foreseeable future. Then they did it again a few years down the road. There is no reason for anyone taking a crack at a CRPG to not look at Divinity Original Sin and say "how do I do that?" instead of "how do I shovel out a neo-Infinity Engine game?" Exactly one of the neo-Infinity Engine games has come anywhere near Divinity Original Sin and that's PoE1, maybe.
I think the secret is that Larian Studios is Belgian, and as such they have no connections to the Silicon Valley CRPG/TTRPG clique, so there's no one around to give them the "common sense advice" that they need to publish Baldur's Gate clones or else they'll wind up the next Troika. Corporate incest basically means the west can't make a good turn-based CRPG because a bunch of vets are lurking at the metaphorical water coolers deflecting responsibility for absurdly sloppy product deliveries twenty years ago by blaming market trends. I mean, I love ToEE, but to call that game flawed is somewhere between "understatement" and "undeserved praise." It's buggy, it's unpolished, the pacing is shit, and the story is a question mark. It was never going to be anything but a cult classic - strictly for people who were willing to hold their nose and soldier past all the shit. And that's basically all of Troika's games in a nutshell. But the lesson the industry learned when Troika collapsed was "don't be different, ever, just keep publishing Baldur's Gate." And because the industry in question is a couple dudes and their gaming buddies (okay, that's a touch of hyperbole, but it's certainly fucking small) both on the TTRPG and CRPG side, that lesson will stick forever, wrong or right.
I was googling for TGDMB discussion of Baldur's Gate to post about Larian's trailer for Baldur's Gate 3, and ouch!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcP0WdH7rTs
I'm not sure what exactly to expect from this BG3. I guess I'm cautiously optimistic?
Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:25 pm
by Axebird
I'm concerned about how tight the leash from WotC is going to be. Unless they're allowed to heavily deviate and trash almost all of the 5e mechanics, there isn't going to be a lot of room for a game in there.
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:03 pm
by Iduno
At least it would be easy to code. "You leveled up. Here's your 6 hp; nothing else changes. We're not even going to bother giving you a separate window, because you don't have anything to choose. Go back to killing goblins."
I assume late game will be padded sumo enough that it becomes an idle game.
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:16 pm
by Chamomile
5e characters have nominal abilities at every level. In a video game, some vague text disguising a non-ability won't fool anyone. The designers will be required to fill in actual game rules.
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:02 pm
by SeekritLurker
The trailer did nothing for me - I don't mind body horror, but it wasn't the teaser I was expecting.
The title kind of bothers me. So, it doesn't follow the character from 1&2, uses a different rules-set, is from a completely different studio that shares none of the staff, and is coming out 15 years later. The BG3 title is a transparent nostalgia cash grab, and I'd be better disposed towards it if it was called Baldur's Gate: Illithid Invasion or something.
Note that I've not played either of the original Baldur's Gate games, and have no strong attachment either way.
And, of course, it could end up being a great game - I'll reserve judgement until there's actually some evidence one way or the other.
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:54 pm
by Whipstitch
I'm just afraid it'll combine Larian writing with real time w/ pause and we'll have the perfect storm of shit I don't like in CRPGs.
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:03 pm
by Iduno
Whipstitch wrote:I'm just afraid it'll combine Larian writing with real time w/ pause and we'll have the perfect storm of shit I don't like in CRPGs.
When I hear something is going to be the best of both worlds, I know it will be the worst of both. And fans of one or both things will be paying to claim it's great anyway.
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:49 am
by Count Arioch the 28th
Tifa's boobs got nerfed in the FF7 remake. RIP my boner.
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:45 am
by Koumei
I'm not sure about that. It now takes two sports bras to contain their power. I mean, they're smaller than in the chibi wandering-around-the-field model from FF7 but that was a single chunky polygon, now she actually has two breasts.
The thing that annoys me is they gave her spats when the whole point of a short skirt is to reveal underwear. I can't remember if that's clearly shown in FF7 when she falls over, but in the Ehrgeiz fighting game (memorable only for having some FF7 characters in it), you can't fail to notice.
Other than that, the trailer looked... a lot better than I thought it'd be when they said "RPGs are for queers, we do ACTION GAMES! Oh we're so embarrassed by the genre that saved our fucking existence and made us relevant." If it had been a Dark Souls/Kingdom Hearts style game I'd just disregard the entire thing. Now they could do better than they have done, by going full RPG, but the new ATB system is kind of interesting.
Disappointed there was no comment about attacking Guard Scorpion while the tail is up. Hopefully they don't change "This guy are sick", the most important line in the entire game. I like the constant chatter (presumably reserved for boss fights and other key battles), although when you also have a thousand bits of text and numbers and graphical things appearing on screen in addition to tracking your HP bar in realtime and your positions and all the missiles and explosions and shit, it's kind of too much. A lot of that could be solved by going full RPG but we've covered that. I look forward to Cid's dialogue when part 87 is released.
"Part 1 is just Midgar and 2 discs" is ridiculous and stupid, and the fact that they've already designed content only to carve off and offer as pre-order DLC is fucking bullshit. I think that's the specific thing that moved it from "Yeah okay, the system there looks cool, playing as Tifa looks like fun, there's stuff to like, I'll probably end up getting it" to "No, fuck you, fuck you forever."
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:24 am
by DSMatticus
I just want to see them take a second crack at making FF7's plot comprehensible. The original is marred by a mediocre and often confusing translation... on top of being a gloriously batshit and convoluted game.
I do not expect them to accomplish this.
I do expect them to fail in new and exciting ways.
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:33 am
by K
DSMatticus wrote:I just want to see them take a second crack at making FF7's plot comprehensible. The original is marred by a mediocre and often confusing translation... on top of being a gloriously batshit and convoluted game.
I do not expect them to accomplish this.
I do expect them to fail in new and exciting ways.
I liked the characters and overall plot and I don't expect them to change those things, so I'm in.
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:08 am
by DSMatticus
FF7 has a lot of insane reveals that are of incredibly dubious value to the narrative and/or are exceptionally poorly placed in the broader story and it's wonderful. Like, everything to do with Zack is a hot mess. It's literally just there to have a subplot about how Cloud is a fraud that doesn't affect any other part of the story and then the arc is spontaneously resolved by the healing power of Tifa's boobs (and other mystical bullshit), and huge chunks of it are completely optional content you can just not do - except the resolution, which is the penultimate story event. It's absolutely hilarious.
No one in 2019 is going to think that's a good idea, because it isn't. But 1997 was a very different year with very different standards for videogame storytelling. I still love it, of course, because nostalgia, but also because it's a uniquely insane experience. But there's no way they aren't going to try and tame some of that insanity, and succeed or fail watching them try is going to be faaantastic. The only thing they could do that would disappoint me is cut a bunch of it to make a more conventionally structured and paced story. That would entirely defeat the point of it being FF7.
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:01 am
by maglag
Other things relatively reduced besides Tifa's boobs:
-Hands.
-Eyes.
-Cloud's banana hair.
It's just a result of going for grittier more "realistic" looks.
Koumei wrote:
"Part 1 is just Midgar and 2 discs" is ridiculous and stupid, and the fact that they've already designed content only to carve off and offer as pre-order DLC is fucking bullshit. I think that's the specific thing that moved it from "Yeah okay, the system there looks cool, playing as Tifa looks like fun, there's stuff to like, I'll probably end up getting it" to "No, fuck you, fuck you forever."
Milking the hell out of fanatic fans is a smart move.
I'll wait for the complete tri-edition that'll be eventually released a few years later, not like I have lack of games to play until then.
ALSO WHERE IS CLOUD'S HELICOPTER BLADE?
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:17 pm
by Stahlseele
Meanwhile, i am much more interested in the Wasteland 3 Announcement.
And of course, Cyberpunk 2077.
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:42 pm
by Shrapnel
Y'know what baffles my tiny mind? That there hasn't yet been a Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy crossover. Not a proper one, anyway.
They're two of Squenix's biggest RPG franchises! How the hell has this not happened yet?! It'd be like not crossing over Transformers and Ecco the Dolphin, or Doctor Who with Star Trek, or a three-way between Chips Challenge, Odell Down Under and Exile!
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:07 pm
by Stahlseele
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:51 pm
by Count Arioch the 28th
I don't know a lot of DQ characters. I played the NES trilogy, then later played part 9.
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:52 pm
by Shrapnel
Okay, I actually did know about that one (have a few issues), but still, my POINT STANDS!
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:48 pm
by Darth Rabbitt
Eh, the original FF7 gets a lot less interesting when you leave Midgar, and more or less falls apart by the second disc (both in terms of the story getting increasingly convoluted and the combat system becoming increasingly broken). So assuming it's reasonably priced (which of course it won't be) I would in theory be down with getting something that's "just the Midgar portion of the game, but with better graphics, translation and combat system." But I know that's not what we're going to get.
I fully suspect the new game will dedicate more time to Sephiroth wank and less on the worldbuilding or the environmental themes or any of the other stuff that was actually interesting about the game. Possibly cramming in more references/content from the spinoffs no one cares about.
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:56 am
by OgreBattle
Would love to see Crisis core’s Zack Angeal Sephiroth G story integrated into the remakes smoothly
Cloud killing some of the SOLDIER buddies of zack would be touching
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:44 am
by Koumei
Darth Rabbitt wrote:and the combat system becoming increasingly broken
That's the only interesting thing about Final Fantasy: playing around with the one or two cool parts of the mechanics in the end-game.
In seven, that means experimenting with materia combos such as a mastered cover and then eight counter attacks. In eight, that's I don't know what because that's the worst game and nobody actually played it, but there would probably be a cool GF junctioning thing to play with, choosing interesting abilities there. In nine, I don't know because I actually died of old age in the time it took to get out of the forest of mist and I am a ghost typing right now. In ten, it's probably just filling in all the spheres on the grid like a worse Mana Khemia (much the same as colouring all the dots on a WW sheet is relaxing). In ten-2 it's figuring out good spheregrid combos like White Mage to Haste yourself, swapping to Psychic to gain Immunity: Yes, then doing your super transformation (before end-game you would instead use this opportunity to turn into Blue Mage so you can safely learn "Fuck off and Die" from the biggest bads). In twelve it's setting up macro scripts so the game plays itself in an interesting tactical way.
On a related note I tried playing a bit of 12 for the past week as I took a break from Mana Khemia due to encountering the "Your pet dies" chapter in the same week that my actual pet dog died. And it reminded me just how awful their "we don't do RPGs any more" games actually are. And how generally bad their stories are and bland their characters are. I had enough somewhere after the second? third? nineteenth? time the party was captured and led away in chains, and still couldn't set up scripts as basic as "If an ally dies, resurrect them" and "If an enemy is oiled up, set them on fire" (rather I could do the latter, but they gate your spells off so there was no way to oil them up). At any rate, it reset my expectations and FF7R will be fucking atrocious and actually give Dutch elm disease to everyone who plays it.
They really should just release a disc with "Here is some post-game fuck-about, free of all of our bullshit" for all of the games.
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:38 am
by DSMatticus
FF15 is an adequate action RPG. You push buttons and things happen and it's all very fast and active and there are meters look at them go up good now press another button yay you're playing a videogame. It's not deep or balanced, but it avoids the pitfall of being something like Darksiders 3 where there are zero subsystems and the spectacle itself is fundamentally uninteresting. They have mostly figured out how to do the real-time thing they've been trying to do since 12.
Story-wise, FF15 is one of the most complete disasters I have ever seen. It's not fresh enough in my memory to elaborate on that. Or maybe that part of my brain bleached itself as a survival mechanism. All I can really remember is that they very, very clearly ran out of time, because gaping chunks of the story are missing and character arcs appear and disappear seemingly at random and there is nothing even remotely resembling pacing.
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:53 am
by Guts
I was very excited for FF15 at the time... and forgot it completely when I tried Nier Automata.
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:37 pm
by Count Arioch the 28th
I heard there were literal ad placements in FF15 and immediately lost all interest.
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:09 pm
by Pariah Dog
I recall when EA said they were going to do that with Battlefield 2142 and gamers lost their collective shit over it, now they're like "Meh". I truly mourn the direction the hobby is going.
On a less depressing note, I've looked at Octopath Traveler since it got ported to PC and it looks like a throwback to old school JRPGs and has my interest, just not at $60.