Cyberzombie wrote:Voss wrote:
If 2 of 4 attacks come up 15+ (or 12+ on rogues/wizards), thats half the party down. Granted there is a lot the party can do to drop multiple hobgoblins in round 1 as well, But I'd say about every fifth hobgoblin fight run at first level has the potential to turn into a complete fucking disaster. Maybe more, depending on how many of those are new players or people not expecting the raw damage output of fucking every day enemy guards. The RNG is just too ridiculous, and there is simply no reason to create 1st level mooks that can viably one shot almost anyone in the party in a single attack.
Well I suppose my main issue is that I don't see a hobgoblin as just a 1st level mook, I see them pretty much as something that should be on par with a 1st level character. Hobgoblins are well-trained and organized, and I don't see an issue with them being dangerous to low level characters.
Well, unsurprisingly, you're wrong. Hobgoblins have always been mooks, slightly stronger than goblins, but effectively a tidier orc. And dangerous is not the same as 'threaten TPK'.
As far as one shots, I don't really see a big issue with that either. Pretty much every single one of the wizard's offensive spells has 1 shot potential, and with a greater chance than any of the hobgoblin's attacks. I actually feel like we need more melee one-shots rather than less. Physical attacks should be threatening, just like spells are.
Yeah, great. So you don't even understand the game. Shit monsters one-shitting (ah, the joys of autocorrect. I'm keeping that) PCs automatically is bad for the game, especially when its happening round 1 to potentially multiple players because some damn mook is _standing next to them_ and the attack dice happen to come up high. It is 'go directly to the playstation' at the early stages of the game, with a solid chance of total failure as people are learning the game/campaign/characters.
Comparing it to
sleep is stupid, because it obviously isn't a limited resource level appropriate ability, because they are quite easily throwing the auto-one-hit on every attack on every round. Each one, every time. Thats fucking insane. (And for the record, sleep would also be a terribad thing to throw at a first level party, because it would get 2-3 of them, with no chance to resist). It is very important to understand that the PCs are expected to face several groups of monsters over the course of the day. Each group of monsters is only expected to face the party once. So unlimited one-shots are completely unreasonable in a game about resource management.
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On another subejct, I decided to fuck around with point buy, to see how character creation shakes out. It is... even more fucking terrible than I thought. Optimizing around the 'you can only buy a 15' makes for a fucking limited set of characters. As in, you should play a human, a high elf wizard, a stout halfling rogue, a mountain dwarf fighter, or a hill dwarf cleric. And the human is actually suboptimal, since you get slightly higher stats in ability scores those classes give no shits about in exchange for a long list of racial abilities.
Seriously this is insane. Here is how it shakes out, (and you can shift some 8s in for higher bonuses to other stats you don't care about, but seriously whatever. Wisdom matters because perception, everything else is attacks/spells, defense or HP.... or nothing).
The wizard build is:
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 11 (or 8 for the high elf). But the high elf gets all the elf abilities, and the human gets +0 instead of -1 on charisma checks.
In exchange for that -1, the elf gets shortsword (finesse weapon), longbow,
bonus cantrip, extra language, dark vision, advantage vs charm, immunity to sleep, and trance (4 hours sleep)
Rogue is
Str 11 (10 for halfling, +0 either way)
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 10 (8 for halfling, 0 vs -1 again)
so -1 for advantage vs poison, resistance vs poison, advantage vs fear, move through larger critters and reroll 1s. and a negative: -5 movement (which does matter a bit, but less than you'd think given the rogue free movement ability at level 2).
Fighter is extra stupid, since mountain dwarves get +2 str and +2 con
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 14
Charisma 9 (or 8 for the dwarf)
so literally zero difference in stat modifiers in exchange for advantage & resistance vs poison, tool proficiency and stonecutting. (and -5 movement)
The rest of the dwarf traits don't matter, since they get them all already as fighter proficiencies or (in the case of armor penalty negation, by virtue of strength)
Cleric is another fuck you moment, largely because the cleric wants to be a little MAD at later levels and actually make melee attacks (and wear heavy armor, which the life cleric can.
So
Str 15 (14 for hill dwarf)
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 9 (8 for dwarf)
Now, that strength 15 is just there to ignore the movement penalty for the good heavy armors, but dwarves get that inherently, so its just there for melee attacks (cantrips do for ranged attacks). So this also +0 stat modifiers in exchange for tools, poison resilience, stonecutting, and most importantly, bonus HPs.
(there might also be room for dex cleric builds, particularly for domains that don't get heavy armor inherently. But seriously, just swap dex and str or maybe even con. But particularly at low levels, particularly with the cap on starting attributes, heavy armor is
just better: Max AC 15 vs Max 17 (or 18 once you get 1500 gp). And if you prioritize raising dex over raising your spell casting ability, you are a fucking moron. Buff spells have been nerfed too hard, particularly with concentration giving you a chance to lose the spell with every hit (and no way to boost that Con save to match the DC set by incoming damage, though admittedly is doesn't matter if the damage is 20 or less).
The variant human might be interesting, by the by, depending on what feats are, but they take significant stat penalties (-2 Str, -3 Cha for the wizard, -1 Wis, -2 Cha for the rogue, -2 dex, -1 wis and cha for the fighter, -1 str, -2 dex and -1 cha for the cleric) for the proficiency bonus to one skill and a feat, which are ??? at this stage.
The big thing is, however, there is zero reason to build anything other than these class/race combinations (wood elf rogues or clerics might work), with the exception of dex fighters, which are a bit of an oddity (since halflings can't use longbows, and they would be the default dex/con option. Taking shortbows straight up means less damage)
Str 12 (10 for wood elf)
Dex 16 (17 for wood elf
Con 16 (15 for wood elf)
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 9 (8 for wood elf)
wood elf abilities and such- bonus movement, dark vision, hiding in bushes
This has the biggest divergence, but keep in mind it goes away at 4th level with the first stat increase. Its simple +1 dex/+1con instead of +2 to one stat, and the con difference forever goes away.
So there you have it, the 5 builds for the four base classes in D&D. Fuck you, Mearls.