Still more Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both

[Talisman]

Hrmm...I can agree with that.

So, by your definition, was D&D 3.x a "generic world?" It had deities but no defualt setting; just Generic Tolkienian Fantasy Pastiche.

[virgil]

Generic Tolkienian Fantasy Pastiche has in and of itself become a setting. Admittedly, the iconic behavior/lifestyle of stereotypical adventurers is effectively dead once the players get past 6th level, the way 3E is designed; not that gaming groups across the world haven't been ignoring this facet and trudge through anyway with a system that works against this goal.

[bosssmiley]

Sorry if this constitutes blogspam.

From Critical Hits: WOTC wants to charge for D&DI beta

Looks like they're continuing the unspoken 4E paradigm of 'you get to pay for the privilege of being our beta testers'.


@Antumbra: I was with you right up to brilliantgameologists.

[Voss]

Hrmm...I can agree with that.

So, by your definition, was D&D 3.x a "generic world?" It had deities but no defualt setting; just Generic Tolkienian Fantasy Pastiche.

Actually, it was technically Greyhawk, which was sorta available. But really, its setting was FR. And the GTFP is pretty identifiable of itself, the D&D version especially so. You know what D&D goblins and dragons and beholders and drow are going to do and how they're going to behave.

[Roy]

Antumbra, I give you the Golden Thread Award.

[Voss]

But really, the fact of the matter is that the RPG community is fragmenting. Hard. D&D 4e is driving people away from the monolith just as AD&D did.

I dont' know about that.

Most of the casual players I know really love 4E. They admit it's a different game and has a different feel, but they actually like it. The people who don't like it tend to be the older players who always played spellcasters. The fact really was that 3.5 required a level of system mastery that most people just weren't comfortable with. And while 3E was a total playground for the Char Op min/maxer, the casual player just feels overwhelmed. I mean not everyone wants to spend a ton of time trying to master the system. And one of the 3Es biggest problems is that if you didn't do that, you got kicked in the balls. Hard.

I saw that aspect scare away a ton of gamers.

Now it's the other way around where the hardcore system masters are getting scared away, but the casual players are getting attracted.

Of course once, WotC starts spamming splatbooks that unbalance the game that could rapidly change. WotC has to be very careful about what they produce for 4E, since right now things are going good, but if they start excluding the casual gamer again by rewarding dumpster diving, then 4E's fanbase will completely fall apart.

The first supplements aren't out yet. Wait a couple months- the entire design of 4e is built around the supplements, because they know where their profit margins need to be. The bean counters are heavily, heavily involved in the product schedule.

On the other hand... casual gamers aren't really part of the community, pretty much by definition. They don't give feedback, they don't take part in anything beyond their little bubble. They're really just factored in as the x% that buy a book out of curiosity and nothing else.

And its not that the system mastery people are getting scared away. They're leaving in disgust, because WotC secretly swapped out the tasty, tasty steak for some flavorless tofu burgers. And somehow, people noticed.

It goes beyond that though. A lot of people stuck with D&D because of the flavor. 4e shed a lot of the flavor, and is actively courting new gamers that have no idea what the flavor of D&D is. They're heading for a generic game system, which is a mistake. And at the same time, they're almost making an effort to drive older gamers away, because they have ideas and expectations, and that sort of thing is troublesome to deal with.

[JonSetanta]

Not entirely, but thats just because nerds as a community tend to fragment and blindly support shit just because other nerds don't support it. Quality becomes a secondary issue. And unfortunately, there are enough people who really want to 'turn off the brain' and just kill things, and the new design principles of simple and stupid actually appeal to them. I do think most of those will get bored and wander off, sooner or later.

Hm. I leave that for Brawl or Soul Calibur, not a tabletop RPG.

When I RP I like it to be a social event with both magick fightan and roleplayan in equal amounts.

[Antumbra]

...there are enough people who really want to 'turn off the brain' and just kill things, and the new design principles of simple and stupid actually appeal to them...

...As happens all to often to your easily distracted hero, Antumbra, he has answered a question nobody asked - and isn't really sure of what, if any, point he was trying to make...

One of the best (or most fun, not a huge difference) DnD player's I've gamed with always played Big Dumb Barbarians and he did it well. He wasn't much of an optimizer but he played what he liked (and that happened to be the Frenzied Berserker so it wasn't a problem).

The thing is, he and the rest of the party are almost exactly the sort of person you're referring to - but they still agreed with me that the system, like reality, should support people who work at it to, well, be the best they can be - especially when they can share the bounty (who d'ya think told him about the FB?).
You don't really see many Wizard players calling better Wizards cheaters, if they had any sense they'd ask for tips - (random thought: perhaps if the PHBs strongly encouraged the entire team to outline what they want to do and how they can help each other out, perhaps with a quick after action talk each session - for roleplaying or metagaming XP or whatever - it would help the party effectiveness even out).

It has never ever been a problem for me, that I'm willing to put in the effort to make a good character simply because I'm not on a bizarre power trip and because my groups have never been Retard Roleplayers who think nobody should be rewarded for their work if it isn't a emo backstory.

Or to summarize - why the hell doesn't every goddamn RPG write "Optimisers: Your fellow Gamers are your Friends, aren't they? Then why, would you, in a game about teamwork and such, not offer assistance." and "Casual Players: Friends goood. Friends who play good, goooder - make strong, tough, give fun more!"

###

The BG bit doesn't fit great - basically I couldn't say anything really nice about it (it's just the CharOp board of WotC minus Aelyrinth... though on second thought... that's not half bad...) and there's been some dubious happenings that so far fall under the "Incomplete Data Set" type of paranoia - dismissable but a little troublesome.

So I chose the scene from PF 'cause it's funny and might be prescient of me.

If I had wasted more time on it (and was really really self aggrandizing) I'd have added something roughly like:

Part 5 - "Woo! Incoherency!":
The scene shifts suddenly - sweeping out of the basement where a strange box has been opened - passing over the hovels of the town, over the chaos and terror of the procession, over the spires of the temple, up past the clouds to the peak of the Mountain of Power.
A fortress crowns the peak, inhabited by great and terrible Denizens - who often Scry from towers of lapis lazuli and beaten gold upon the horrors of the Abyss below - for surely it can be nothing but, when seen from so lofty a height.
Often they take on the flesh of mortal man to walk the world beneath, Teleporting down with mighty magics and level-appropriate class abilities such as Carnap's Might and Ockhams Razor, offering to part the roiling clouds and reveal the endless sky above. Unfortunately such powerful majick usually lasts but minutes and our hoarse heroes must return else they are forced to replace another forehead dented keyboard.

In a wide marbled forum in the center of the Den, do the Denizens lay upon a sacrificial bier the spoiled fruits of their forays - to be judged accordingly, in the time before The New Edition is completed and they leave the soiled Earth behind...

There's probably some Zeus style thunderbolt action and stuff as well 'cause smiting is Friendly Family Fun.

Well, anyway - you should listen to the Conan the Barbarian soundtrack, it's very good.

[Leress]

Minion changes

Why even give them 1 hp just put if you hit them and they die?

[Psychic Robot]

Minion mechanics: SHUT THE FUCK UP AND TURN OFF YOUR BRAIN.

[Koumei]

Wow. Caltrops that make ogres explode. That's pretty awesome.

And by awesome I mean stupid.

I can't even think of an instantly lethal poison that someone could claim the caltrops are coated in. The best I can come up with, being a resident of Terror Incognita, is either Sydney Funnelweb, Coneshell or Box Jellyfish, but even they allow for some time spent writhing in agony.

[JonSetanta]

It's times like this that the usual /tg/ expression of saying "herp derp" repeatedly suffices.

Like so:

herp derp derp derp DERP

I thought of minion HP = their level too, but I don't want to record any of that shit.
They'll have 2 status to keep track of instead: injured and dead.

For most battles, minions will fall by the handfuls but not actually die. All this requires is the usual 1 HP damage, a status effect change, whatever.
They stay down.
When battle ends, they all get up and limp away with "tails between their legs".
To kill them, the minions need only be hit a second time before battle ends.
They usually Take 10 on all saves if in 3.X but it's not even necessary in 4e (which I don't play)

Seriously. That's all WOTC needs to do.
1 HP. My ass.

[Leress]

Un nerf the Sorcerer

I don't think the class is the problem when you are being outclassed by a Favored Soul.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

Minion changes

Why even give them 1 hp just put if you hit them and they die?

Well, that does leave the question of how the Effects of powers work on them. Of course, sigma's solution takes that into account nicely.

[bosssmiley]

Define "re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic":

Is 4E's new Brutal weapon property overpowered?

Does a weapon property that let's you re-roll low numbers on damage dice break the game?

The property increases minimum damage, but has no effect on maximum damage. Let's just pray that WotC are never silly enough to put it on a 2dX weapon...

[Koumei]

I'm trying to figure out why putting it on a 2dX weapon would be any different from a 1dX weapon. Sure, Brutal would come into play more often, but it's still not a big deal.

There's a lot of crying and complaining going on - as though they care about such a tiny thing in a system made out of concentrated fail. Shouldn't they instead mention some of the bigger things that suck in 4E? Like, you know, all of it?

At any rate, it looks like we have the new Spiked Chain (for cries of "It's broken!")

[Amra]

It's almost as though they're scared of alienating the segment of the player population that gets their rocks off on the sound of innumerable polyhedra hitting the table.

[virgil]

http://www.halfpixel.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3c1d66b356

[JonSetanta]

I'm trying to figure out why putting it on a 2dX weapon would be any different from a 1dX weapon. Sure, Brutal would come into play more often, but it's still not a big deal.

Huh. Someone out there fails more in math than I do.
Maybe probability has nothing to with equations, like it's more geometric, and some people just can't imagine it well.

It isn't a big deal at all. All they have to do is look at average (or median) and maximum damages, not minimum.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

Apparently, you're supposed to have to pay out the ass to increase your average damage by 1 (in the case of the Brutal 2 executioner's axe)? Apparently, the new definition of broken is "doesn't even increase your damage enough to shave rounds off the battle."

[Koumei]

Maybe probability has nothing to with equations, like it's more geometric, and some people just can't imagine it well.

I dropped out of advanced math in grade 11 more or less when they were covering probability, and even I could tell how laughable it was. That's without them pulling out charts, programs and exct percentages.

These people manage to fail while (in some cases) being very good with the math involved.

[Username17]

The Executioner's Axe is obviously a superior weapon. It's like a Rapier as compared to a Shortsword. You pay a frickin feat for it. And it adds +1 to average damage and nothing to maximum damage. This means that on a critical, it blows.

It's being introduced because you can't have a d14, so if you want to make an exotic version of weaponry that already does a d12 you have to come up with another mechanic to add +1 average damage.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

On the other hand... casual gamers aren't really part of the community, pretty much by definition. They don't give feedback, they don't take part in anything beyond their little bubble. They're really just factored in as the x% that buy a book out of curiosity and nothing else.

Casual gamers actually make up a pretty big part of D&D sales. The majority of D&D players don't read the boards regularly, and aren't particularly vocal as far as WotC knows, but they do buy a lot of products. Casual gamers are actually relatively common. Much more so than power gamers.

It goes beyond that though. A lot of people stuck with D&D because of the flavor. 4e shed a lot of the flavor, and is actively courting new gamers that have no idea what the flavor of D&D is. They're heading for a generic game system, which is a mistake. And at the same time, they're almost making an effort to drive older gamers away, because they have ideas and expectations, and that sort of thing is troublesome to deal with.

I don't know, actually 4E sticks with D&D's basic flavor pretty well. You kick down doors and kill monsters.

Hasn't that always been what D&D was about?

[Absentminded_Wizard]

Maybe probability has nothing to with equations, like it's more geometric, and some people just can't imagine it well.

I dropped out of advanced math in grade 11 more or less when they were covering probability, and even I could tell how laughable it was. That's without them pulling out charts, programs and exct percentages.

These people manage to fail while (in some cases) being very good with the math involved.

I'm not sure it's probability in general so much as the ability to figure out an unusual kind of problem. Most gamers know how to figure out the average roll of an x-sided die, and can figure out what a +1 does to that average. But if you throw something new at some mathematically oriented people, they sometimes look for a way to figure out what must surely be a complex probability curve. Meanwhile, the dropouts and English majors who read (most of) Probability For Dummies can figure out that Brutal 2 on a 1d10 weapon is just like rolling 1d8 + 2.

[virgil]

Most of what I saw in regards to them thinking it 'broken' was its application to Vorpal. I can't even remember, or care, what that does. Does it make your damage dice explode?