Cyberpunk Fantasy Heartbreaker

[erik]

Probably best to steer clear of rifts crap anyway given how litigious Siembieda is.

[Krusk]

You risk cognitive dissonance though. Stuff too many ideas into a setting and it stops making sense.

This was my main point.

[Aryxbez]

I know I wasn't liking the sound around page 30? or so, of people wanting melee combat to suck, and basically be even "worse" than in the current Shadowrun. Melee needs to be viable, and awesome I say, especially more than just chopping one guy an initiative pass. Feel anyone who's BA (or PC) that are melee types should be viable at taking on multiple combatants in melee combat. Be especially nice if could be tuned to be more like 2-3 guys an initiative pass, or an entire squad of gangers/rent-a-cops, Zombies/Ghouls or whatever. The talk about super powers, and sounds like combat be done in like single actions (so you can have a check to where you have the street samurai go to take out like the like 5-15 gangers with baseball bats?), is very promising premise to me.

Otherwise, unless there's some pages I missed, or otherwise explaining it, be wondering how melee combat characters, and taking on multiple opponents will be handled. Will it be lame like shadowrun, where a cyber ninja gets punked by 5 guys with 9-irons, and only able to take down 1-2 down a turn (pending on how those 2-3 initiative passes go)? I would prefer a more action movie logic to where main character is taking on multiple opponents at a time, being awesome, like PC's should be.

[Username17]

With the Challenge Test setup, an action movie type character can drop several mooks in a round. With the Flanking maneuvers, larger groups get progressive bonuses on future challenge tests. A bad ass ninja can beat up a bunch of guards, but has to run away if guards keep coming.

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

Hopefully the main thread is the best place to share this:

Vatgrown Meat Closer to reality

[Username17]

So I have been having a problem with characters dropping mooks with their bear hands. That is: there isn't a lot of room on dice pool spreads and having a character be able to punch out a mook means that they are likely to be tearing a hole in an armored wall with the same left hook.

But it occurred to me that actually having an attack roll and a soak roll means that you have two outputs. So you could get dropped by the result on either one. What I'm currently running with is that your combat maneuver could set a threshold for the resistance test to avoid a condition infliction in addition to them actually taking injuries from net faults on their soak test.

So if you do a knock-out attack, your opponent has to get as many net hits as you got in order to avoid getting knocked out. Bigger weapons would still be useful, because they provide more penalty dice to the target, but skilled ninjas can indeed use Vulcan neck pinches on guards they have snuck up on.

-Username17

[Endovior]

Ah! I get it, and that makes sense... that way, even a miss from a rocket-propelled grenade could still inflict damage, from the splash radius and such, while more precise attacks still need the skill success in order to work properly.

[Username17]

Ah! I get it, and that makes sense... that way, even a miss from a rocket-propelled grenade could still inflict damage, from the splash radius and such, while more precise attacks still need the skill success in order to work properly.

Pretty much. A hand-to-hand specialist is going to likely bounce off of people he fails to take-down, while someone with a flame thrower or machine gun could easily injure or kill even if the attack was a flub.

So here's the outline of a maneuver:

The maneuver has a minimum number of hits to go off. When you're in a Challenge Test, that's easy. You don't declare a maneuver that has a higher difficulty than your bid, because that would be stupid. When you're making an unopposed attack, the maneuver difficulty is essentially taking a voluntary challenge bid in order to buy the effect if it succeeds. In this way a "called shot" is in fact more likely to miss (because the maneuver difficulty is higher than the base of zero), but the called shot does not perversely do less damage or anything (because your hits don't actually go away).

Then the maneuver, having "succeeded" has a threshold that the target has to make on their resistance roll to save vs. suck (or save vs death as the case may be). The attacker's Style adds to the save threshold.

Here's the question though: how do people want to acquire maneuvers? At this point, I think RPGs have really tried every single possible way to give out combat maneuvers:

• oWoD Vampire Style: All the combat maneuvers are on one big list and everyone can use any of them whenever they want.
• Champions 4 Style: There is a short list of combat maneuvers that anyone can use whenever they want and a much longer list of maneuvers you can buy access to one at a time.
• SR3 Style: each Martial Art has a list of maneuvers associated with it, and as you buy into the martial art you can make selections out of that list.
• D&D 3E Style: The list of combat maneuvers is open to everyone, but you can buy "improvements" to individual combat maneuvers that make them better in your hands.
• nWoD Style: Martial Arts are packages of maneuvers, and when you buy up a martial art you collect those maneuver options in order.
• SR4 Style: Martial Arts are packages of maneuvers, and when you tag a martial art you get the whole list of maneuver options.

I think that about covers it.

-Username17

[Vebyast]

I think that the setting prompts a combination of DND3e and Champions. Everything is open to everybody, but the good stuff is so difficult that only people with applicable improvements can use it effectively. Technically an unaided human can twist an opponent's head off like a bottlecap, but you really aren't going to be doing that unless you're cybered or wearing an exoskeleton. Same for jumping tall buildings in a single bound, outrunning cars, hijacking helicopters, and using giant machine guns.

[edit: I assume that weaponry, arm blades, poisonous bites, etc aren't going to be combat maneuvers.]

[Username17]

I think that the setting prompts a combination of DND3e and Champions. Everything is open to everybody, but the good stuff is so difficult that only people with applicable improvements can use it effectively. Technically an unaided human can twist an opponent's head off like a bottlecap, but you really aren't going to be doing that unless you're cybered or wearing an exoskeleton. Same for jumping tall buildings in a single bound, outrunning cars, hijacking helicopters, and using giant machine guns.

[edit: I assume that weaponry, arm blades, poisonous bites, etc aren't going to be combat maneuvers.]

It honestly hadn't occurred to me that people would want a "kiss" maneuver, but yes they would. Between vampires, Poison Ivy toxins, Asura Fangs, and plain old mouths full of tracker nanites, people would indeed want a maneuver where they reach in and kiss/bite their opponent in combat. The question is whether this should just be a thing on the basic list like it is in OWoD combat or something that you have to buy (possibly coming as a package with some other maneuvers or abilities). I mean, if you don't have poisonous fangs or teeth, it's kind of a waste of time to run your finger through the "kiss" option every time you scroll through your options.

-Username17

[Blicero]

So I have been having a problem with characters dropping mooks with their bear hands.
-Username17

I can say that I honestly have no problem with manbears always defeating mooks.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

So I have been having a problem with characters dropping mooks with their bear hands.
-Username17

I can say that I honestly have no problem with manbears always defeating mooks.

Needs more pig.

[A Man In Black]

It honestly hadn't occurred to me that people would want a "kiss" maneuver, but yes they would. Between vampires, Poison Ivy toxins, Asura Fangs, and plain old mouths full of tracker nanites, people would indeed want a maneuver where they reach in and kiss/bite their opponent in combat. The question is whether this should just be a thing on the basic list like it is in OWoD combat or something that you have to buy (possibly coming as a package with some other maneuvers or abilities). I mean, if you don't have poisonous fangs or teeth, it's kind of a waste of time to run your finger through the "kiss" option every time you scroll through your options.

"Reach in and do a delicate/complicated/fiddly thing at melee range, possibly involving atypical personal vulnerability" seems like something everyone should be able to do. A vanilla crazy person should be able to bite people. The same action would probably be used for ripping out someone's plugs, jabbing someone with a syringe, trying to pour a bottle or container on someone, etc.

[Endovior]

I think that the setting prompts a combination of DND3e and Champions. Everything is open to everybody, but the good stuff is so difficult that only people with applicable improvements can use it effectively. Technically an unaided human can twist an opponent's head off like a bottlecap, but you really aren't going to be doing that unless you're cybered or wearing an exoskeleton. Same for jumping tall buildings in a single bound, outrunning cars, hijacking helicopters, and using giant machine guns.

[edit: I assume that weaponry, arm blades, poisonous bites, etc aren't going to be combat maneuvers.]

As a technicality, that is the 'GURPS' system for combat maneuvers; anyone at all, even a completely untrained guy, could attempt essentially any combat maneuver (with the only exceptions being combat maneuvers that are explicitly based on magic or chi or unexplained badassitude best summed up as "you are clearly in an action movie"), but most combat maneuvers worth having are based off either a martial arts skill, or a weapons skill, so unskilled or low-skilled people using them will probably fail. Additionally, anyone with a specific interest in a given combat tactic can furthermore specialize in it by allocating additional character resources, thus being more likely to succeed in their one area of specialization then some other guy without their specialist training.

[fectin]

I am opposed to the idea of requiring a specific skill (or one of several specific skills) to bite someone in combat. Not that it should be a good idea otherwise, but not being able to try seems dumb.

[Username17]

I am opposed to the idea of requiring a specific skill (or one of several specific skills) to bite someone in combat. Not that it should be a good idea otherwise, but not being able to try seems dumb.

I would point out that in D&D you do in fact need a special skill in order to bite people in combat. But you're right. People will want the ability to put their mouth on people in combat. Probably the Kiss maneuver simply doesn't do anything unless you have special equipment or powers or something.

That suggests a Champions style system in which there are maneuvers and you can buy enhanced versions of those maneuvers and non-standard maneuvers with your martial arts. But it still raises the question of whether people want martial arts to be lists of maneuvers/upgrades you get at specific buy-in levels like a nWoD Martial Art, or lists of maneuvers/upgrades that you can choose from as you buy into that martial art like a SR3 Martial Art.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

If you allow access to any maneuver then you have to make damn sure they are all balanced, or else people will just buy the best ones. By having them obtained in a ranked order you can allow some to be plain better than others by requiring a higher buy in, if that's important to you. The ranked system also means that players can just read the first maneuver of each style when determining what to pick, rather than having to read through the whole list. It tends to produce more samey characters though.

For me, it depends how many maneuvers you are planning to have. The more you have the more I like the NwoD model. Every art can have all unique abilities with that model without swamping people. If you are planning on having a more limited list of maneuvers, and particularly if martial arts will share maneuvers, go for the SR3 system. It sucks having to take a power you already have because its next on the list.

[Vebyast]

It strikes me that there's a nice equivalency between martial arts paths and cyber/bio upgrades. Jujutsu, arm blades, and poison sacs all just give you access to a some maneuvers and upgrades to a few of your existing maneuvers. (cyber and bio have some additional side effects, but this portion of their block stays almost exactly the same)

Jujutsu
You now have access to the following maneuvers: joint lock, throw, break elbow, break knee, break neck.
Arm Blades
You may choose to add x extra slashing damage to any unarmed attack. You now have access to the following maneuvers: dis-arm, stabbity.
Poison Sacs
You may choose to add a poison status effect to any unarmed attack. You now have access to the following maneuvers: spit poison.

---

Side note: how do you buy martial arts? Do they cost stress?

[Emerald]

That suggests a Champions style system in which there are maneuvers and you can buy enhanced versions of those maneuvers and non-standard maneuvers with your martial arts. But it still raises the question of whether people want martial arts to be lists of maneuvers/upgrades you get at specific buy-in levels like a nWoD Martial Art, or lists of maneuvers/upgrades that you can choose from as you buy into that martial art like a SR3 Martial Art.

Might I suggest a hybrid approach? You have your basic combat maneuvers that everyone can use, of course, and then each martial art is composed of two parts: you have certain buy-in levels that upgrade your basic maneuvers, and when you go from Kendo II to Kendo III or whatever you then select new maneuvers individually from a list. So if Joe Ninja and First Officer Spock both take Judo III, Joe might learn Iaijutsu Takedown while Spock learns Vulcan Death Pinch but they both have the basic +X to Combat Maneuvers A and C like everyone else who takes Judo III.

If you are planning on having a more limited list of maneuvers, and particularly if martial arts will share maneuvers, go for the SR3 system. It sucks having to take a power you already have because its next on the list.

One option is to say that you take the next power on the list that you don't know already, so if you already know Judo Power II and Judo Power III because they're the same as powers in the Cyber Ninja tree, you can just go from Judo Power I to Judo Power IV without overlap. That ensures that you aren't punished for investing in multiple similar styles, and in fact it makes the Guy Who Knows a Ton of Obscure Martial Arts archetype more viable if already having martial arts training makes you advance more and more quickly in new styles.

[Grek]

My take:
Have a short list of maneuvers that anyone can do posted prominently in the combat section, along with a note at the bottom saying that select maneuvers listed in the other sections can be attempted untrained at some penalty or by meeting a higher TN for the challenge test to do it. So "Bite" is listed under the "Vampirsm" monster entry, and in the "Poison Sacs" equipment entry, with a note that biting people can be done by anyone, but it doesn't normally do anything worth caring about.

[Murtak]

There are two main constraints with aqcquiring maneuvers:
1. You definitely want any normal human to be able to punch, kick and grab.
2. You definitely want dedicated martial artists to regularly perform maneuvers that normal people simply can't do.

So at least a bunch of basic maneuvers needs to be available to everyone. And a bunch of advanced maneuvers needs to be limited in some way. Also you probably want aikido martial artists to be visibly and mechanically different from boxers. I suggest the following setup:

Basic maneuvers are open to everyone. Buying a martial art gives you a package of maneuvers and a unique (small) passive bonus of some kind. Those packages should overlap to some degree. You can only use one martial art a time, and you can not use the maneuvers of a martial art you are currently not using.

So our aikidoist (is that a word?) gets a bonus vs grapples and can use counterthrow, trip, disarm. Our sample boxer gets a bonus to dodge punches and can use flurry, uppercut and jab. And both of them can freely use punch, kick and grab.

[Username17]

Maneuvers would definitely not be things like "punch" or "kick". they wouldn't even be things like "low kick" or "block". The maneuver goes to what is accomplished if you win the challenge test, which means that it is the thing you actually land at the end of an abstracted series of thrusts, blocks, and feints. Maneuvers simply do not have the granularity of individual blows - even an individual bid in a challenge test might represent several attacks.

So the basic standard for what a maneuver entails is that it either buys you a better effect if you win or offsets a penalty at the cost of either spending away some of your effect for victory or requiring you to bid high. Or some combination.

So for example: a good maneuver is Covering Fire. You reduce the penalty for engaging multiple enemies at the cost of making enemies you defeat at the challenge test less likely to actually catch a bullet. Another good maneuver would be Disarm, where you have a minimum bid and if you win the challenge test your opponent drops what they are holding unless they get a certain number of resistance hits whether or not they take any damage.

Now one possibility is the idea of a non-proficiency penalty rather than making maneuver knowledge all-or-nothing. That is, an advanced maneuver like execution could be attempted by anyone, but if you didn't have it as a "trained" maneuver, you took a small pile of penalty dice to the action. Thus untrained people would usually default to the attack maneuver, where nothing special happens if you win and there is no minimum bid but everyone gets the option untrained for free. People would then have all kinds of maneuvers they specialized in, but there wouldn't be anything telling you that it was impossible to attempt to grab someone's gun out of their hands. Just that if you weren't an Aikido guy, you probably shouldn't try it.

-Username17

[Vebyast]

So the basic standard for what a maneuver entails is that it either buys you a better effect if you win or offsets a penalty at the cost of either spending away some of your effect for victory or requiring you to bid high. Or some combination.

How specific would this be? Do you have an "inflict status effect and damage" maneuver and you can select from poison, broken elbow, or nerve pinch based on your equipment? Or do you have separate maneuvers for "inflict poison and some damage", "inflict broken elbow and some damage", and "inflict paralysis and maybe some damage"? The second model is a bit easier to build, and gives more granularity (inflict poison and a little damage, broken elbow and a lot of damage, nerve pinch and no damage), but it could make your stat block way too big.

Now one possibility is the idea of a non-proficiency penalty rather than making maneuver knowledge all-or-nothing. That is, an advanced maneuver like execution could be attempted by anyone, but if you didn't have it as a "trained" maneuver, you took a small pile of penalty dice to the action.

I like this method.

Side note: I think that this method means you can use execution even if you aren't trained just by selecting a target that's sufficiently weaker than you are. This is a big bonus; it gives us a built-in coup de grace system. If you have a helpless mook and you want to be showy, just pick a really huge maneuver and damn the penalty dice - you'll win anyway.

[Endovior]

This is pretty much exactly the GURPS system, then.

If you don't have an applicable combat skill, then you can't train maneuvers at all. This doesn't at all mean that you can't try, but it does mean that, unless your opponent is as unskilled as you, that if you try a 'disarm' maneuver on a foe with a gun while being unarmed yourself, it will most likely end in you getting shot.

Being trained in combat skills gives you more dice to roll to succeed, and being trained in the specific maneuver you are attempting gives a reduction in penalty dice. The only way it's any different from GURPS at all is that it uses the +/-d6 mechanics instead of a flat 3d6.

Not that that's a bad thing.

[Vebyast]

This is pretty much exactly the GURPS system, then.

It's not *exactly* the same; GURPS is dice+adds, and I think we have split pools with all of #bonus, #penalty, and #bonus - #penalty factoring into the outcome. It is similar, though, in the way the sizes of the dicepools are generated.