Pathfinder Is Still Bad

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CapnTthePirateG
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

A Man In Black wrote:
CapnTthePirateG wrote:Don't forget where you can trade actual abilities (such as the wizard's bonus feats. which under PF rules come down to "make item, get moneys for free!" for flavor things such as immortality. Or the idiot archetypes like scrollmaster, where you literally burn gp with every attack. It's beginning to look a bit like runescape....
They don't seem to have learned the lesson, either. In the last playtest version of their Gunslinger for Ultimate Combat, you had to pay 6g a shot for your full attack.
...you're kidding right? Please tell me you're kidding.

Isn't there at least some kind of bullet mold or something to make your own bullets & not suck?
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TheFlatline
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Post by TheFlatline »

DMReckless wrote:
TheFlatline wrote: Your main attacks are all ranged touch attacks that you add your intelligence bonus AND your dex bonus to, and then add your int bonus to the damage.
Adding you Int into your attack roll is not a feature of the alchemist class. Not sure where you got that impression.
Prd wrote:Throw Anything (Ex): All alchemists gain the Throw Anything feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any. This bonus damage is already included in the bomb class feature.
So the rest of your post is pretty meaningless since you were playing the class wrong. For 10 levels.
Actually no. I just hadn't looked at the character sheet in months and had forgotten that throw anything doesn't give to-hit bonuses.

So okay, on a creature with touch-attack of 12 and an AC of 17, you start out with dex 20 if you're playing an elf at level 1 and no BAB. You still hit on an 7 or better, compared to the 12 or so that the warrior is having to roll. So you hit 65% of the time (70% if you take point-blank shot) instead of 40% of the time for a fighter. Due to your throw anything feat, even with a flask of acid you're doing 1D4+5 if you're rocking 20 int as well (which are the two stats you really need), which is a higher damage output on average than the fighter is going to put out at level 1 since you're hitting significantly more often.

That's still crazy-sauce bullshit, even if it isn't off-the-hook broken like I mistakenly remembered. Not to mention because you shit alchemy and add your class level I think it is to craft alchemy checks and you get expertise poison use you can craft all kinds of nifty contact poisons- many of which you can make in the field if you have a portable alchemist kit, that you can use to paralyze, sleep, or otherwise f*ck with everyone. A ready supply of shit like drow poison at levels 1-5 is like having a machine gun in a fistfight.
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virgil
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Post by virgil »

Contact poison on your flasks for extra fun?
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Post by TheFlatline »

virgil wrote:Contact poison on your flasks for extra fun?
Hadn't though thought of that. That's even more BS. Very nice.
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Post by A Man In Black »

CapnTthePirateG wrote:...you're kidding right? Please tell me you're kidding.

Isn't there at least some kind of bullet mold or something to make your own bullets & not suck?
Well, sort of. They cost 12g if you aren't a gunslinger, or if you're retarded for some reason and don't take a rank of Craft (alchemy).

The Gunsmithing feat (which all gunslingers get at level 1) gives a 90% discount on powder and shot, so your normal 11g a shot goes down to 1.1g a shot (which is still outrageous, but what the fuck ever). However, you need to use paper cartridges to reload as a free action, and paper cartridges are an "alchemical cartridge" with a base cost of 12g. You only get a 50% discount on alchemical cartridges, and paper cartridges increase your misfire chance from misfiring on a 1 to misfiring on a 1-2.

A misfire is an automiss, and inflicts the "broken" condition on your gun. "Broken" is a new condition introduced in Pathfinder to make sundering a bit more useful, and when a weapon is broken, it's -2 to hit and damage, and for guns it's +2 misfire range. If a broken gun misfires, it explodes. Gunslingers can clear a broken-from-a-misfire gun as a standard as long as they have a grit point (it doesn't cost a point, they just have to have one), or spend one to clear it as a move action. Basically you never, ever want to spend your last grit point or you're fucked.
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Post by hogarth »

Psychic Robot wrote:irony: paizo banned the flask rogue and then created the alchemist
I would have phrased it "Paizo lost the 3.5 warlock and replaced it with a slightly different version of the warlock".
Last edited by hogarth on Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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virgil
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Post by virgil »

TheFlatline wrote:
virgil wrote:Contact poison on your flasks for extra fun?
Hadn't though thought of that. That's even more BS. Very nice.
Flasks are my specialty. I've killed a multi-templated Demogorgon in a single observed round with them before :viking:. That does remind me, I need to check whether fire trap would be a viable option for them.

Did the developers ever 'fix' the fact that since guns are touch attacks in the first range increments, they ignore all damage reduction?
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Post by Koumei »

My sister enjoys playing a Flasked Avenger, and as a Jester, Fire Trap is one of her spells. No poison... yet. At level 11 we're talking ~202 damage in the opening round of combat.

She hated the discovery that Pathfailure ruined Flasking as an option.
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Post by Ice9 »

Actually, I took a look at the Gunslinger rules, and noticed something interesting - Advanced Firearms. Ignore the "misfire" column on the chart - the text specifically says that Advanced Firearms do not misfire. Also, they count as touch attacks for five range increments, not just one, and you can reload the entire clip as a move action (or free with RR).

Suprisingly, they don't cost much more than normal firearms. In fact, the Revolver is actually significantly cheaper than a crappy Musket. The ammunition is more expensive, but if that was houseruled to a sane price, it seems like an actually viable option.
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Post by Kaiyanwang »

Ice9 wrote:Actually, I took a look at the Gunslinger rules, and noticed something interesting - Advanced Firearms. Ignore the "misfire" column on the chart - the text specifically says that Advanced Firearms do not misfire. Also, they count as touch attacks for five range increments, not just one, and you can reload the entire clip as a move action (or free with RR).

Suprisingly, they don't cost much more than normal firearms. In fact, the Revolver is actually significantly cheaper than a crappy Musket. The ammunition is more expensive, but if that was houseruled to a sane price, it seems like an actually viable option.
They actually did a good job there - at least in the playtest document. They added a column with several options, to adjust the level of firearm presence in the game, adjusting therefore costs and proficencies.

I think that the best way to deal with the thing is to consider a low level of firearms as the default, and let player discover-build-unlock the more badass ones.
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Post by MfA »

Alternative rules are a poor excuse to introduce broken by design rules.
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Post by A Man In Black »

MfA wrote:Alternative rules are a poor excuse to introduce broken by design rules.
Indeed. The base rules are that advanced firearms haven't been invented yet. Things do suck less if you can use them, but currently the rules are "Gunslingers suck unless the GM is polite enough to give you guns that work."

With the regular guns, they seem to imply that you could just keep attacking if it jams; gunslingers even get a reduction of the penalties for shooting a jammed gun. Thing is, if a jammed gun jams again, kaboom, and it's off to the store for a ruinously expensive replacement. You get an ability that can prevent this explosion in a pinch for a grit point...

...at level 11. The same level where you get the ability to reload as a free action without the damned paper cartridges.
Last edited by A Man In Black on Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ice9
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Post by Ice9 »

I'll check it again once I get home, but in the document I saw, Advanced Firearms were not called out as optional or anything. The fact that they're better than the basic ones in every way - and cheaper - implies that maybe they don't co-exist. But I didn't see anything indicating you couldn't have them anyway.
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Post by A Man In Black »

Ice9 wrote:I'll check it again once I get home, but in the document I saw, Advanced Firearms were not called out as optional or anything. The fact that they're better than the basic ones in every way - and cheaper - implies that maybe they don't co-exist. But I didn't see anything indicating you couldn't have them anyway.
Emerging Guns: Firearms become more common. They are mass-produced by small guilds or lone gunsmiths, a dwarven clan, or maybe even a nation or two, but the secret is slipping out, and the occasional rare adventurer uses guns. The baseline gunslinger rules and the prices for ammunition given in this document are for this type of campaign. Early firearms are available, but are relatively rare. Gunslingers must take the Craft Firearms feat just to make them feasible weapons. Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items.
Basically that. Also, crafting advanced firearms (or the ammunition for advanced firearms) specifically calls out "At the GM's discretion, you can craft..." So even if you find a revolver or rifle, you can only make ammo for it if your GM says so.
Last edited by A Man In Black on Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hogarth
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TOZ
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Post by TOZ »

Subscribers got their Ultimate Combat PDFs this week. Downloaded mine yesterday but haven't had a lot of time to review it.

Paizo continues their reprinting of 3.5 material. Cleave and Great Cleave are back with new names. A lot of options are showing up as archetypes, such as only Bards getting access to the Dervish. Supposedly the Wild Barbarian is the new Frenzied Berserker, but it looked toned down to me. The Fighting Style feats seem to be their take on ToB stances, in that you take the feat and can activate the style as a swift action. Not sure how good any of them are, but the monk gets an archetype to use them better, switching as a free action and the like.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

The Fighting Style feats seem to be their take on ToB stances, in that they are terrible and bad.
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Post by hogarth »

TOZ wrote:Subscribers got their Ultimate Combat PDFs this week. Downloaded mine yesterday but haven't had a lot of time to review it.

Paizo continues their reprinting of 3.5 material. Cleave and Great Cleave are back with new names.[etc.]
From what I've heard, it sounds like they've added a bunch of new feat chains. Oh joy. You can never have enough feat chains. :bored:
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Post by TOZ »

You were expected something different from the group that says 'give more numbers and fix it with feats'?

PR, I'm confused. You're saying that ToB stances are terrible and bad?
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Post by Psychic Robot »

You're saying that ToB stances are terrible and bad?
paizo's take on them will be
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
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Post by Swordslinger »

K wrote: Take Teleport. It would be trivially easy remove as a combat ability or a dungeon-bypasser which are the only problems, but they cut it out completely because the very idea that someone might travel a few hundred miles as a regular part of their character blew their mind and they had to tag it with a GP cost that meant that people would only use it a few times a campaign and hand out some tiny combat teleporting as abilities.
Teleport is problematic from a consistency point of view. Even if you can only go to fixed teleportation circles, it leads to Elminster being everywhere.

When you include teleport, it's easy to bring the full might of your military (which in this case is high level heroes) to bear on a single target, because you can make a tactical strike and be back within a day. So if you've got a bunch of good aligned wizards capable of casting teleport, they could band together and smash all the evil forces, one a day, by just doing teleport raids.

Why the Zhentarium has strongholds at all in Forgotten Realms is beyond me. Between the Simbul, the Chosen of Mystra, Elminster and god knows how many other godly mages, they could have just decided on a "fuck the Zhents up the ass" day and all just pile on one of their cities or strongholds and nuke them into the stone age.

It's never a good idea to make high level people omnipresent, because it means low level people just don't have much they can do. At best, your greatest adventure is just saving Elminster a trip.

Teleportation leads to one ruling class of wizards and a bunch of people hiding in holes.
Last edited by Swordslinger on Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by K »

Swordslinger wrote:
Why the Zhentarium has strongholds at all in Forgotten Realms is beyond me. Between the Simbul, the Chosen of Mystra, Elminster and god knows how many other godly mages, they could have just decided on a "fuck the Zhents up the ass" day and all just pile on one of their cities or strongholds and nuke them into the stone age.

It's never a good idea to make high level people omnipresent, because it means low level people just don't have much they can do. At best, your greatest adventure is just saving Elminster a trip.

Teleportation leads to one ruling class of wizards and a bunch of people hiding in holes.
I never understand why people think high-level wizards are gods. They really aren't.

The archmages of the world don't kill the Zhents because the archmages of the world are glass cannons like every other wizard. A rogue with a scroll of Disjunction and some archers can turn a pack of the most powerful archmages in the world into dead meat. A dragon who knows antimagic field can body slam Eliminister. Hell, various spells just bust through or ignore various magic protections and are available to mid-level spellcasters of various types. The Zhents have their own spellcasters, some actual archmages and high clerics, and they are not a push-over. Heck, even the most dumpster-diving wizard can be killed by a Rogue even if a Fighter is going to have trouble sealing the deal.

As for teleport, I stand by my argument that you can still tell stories with it. Star Trek has decades of stories that prove that it's possible, and their teleportation has a lot fewer restrictions than many other settings. I mean, just because there are teleport circles scattered around the world it doesn't mean that they aren't controlled by dangerous forces AND happen to go to the spots where adventures happen. You can just say "Scrying isn't enough for a teleport" and suddenly scry and die vanishes. Literally, the problems with teleport can be fixed with a sentence or two.

As for the argument that the existence of high-level characters invalidates the work of low-level ones, I have to call foul again. People seem to love this argument, even though it has the assumption built into it that high-level characters know about every danger in the world AND aren't currently involved in some other adventure AND care enough to get out of bed for things that can be handled by lower-level characters.

High-level characters with access to magic rule the world and wizards are just one member in that pantheon.
Last edited by K on Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TOZ »

My favorite rule for teleport is 'you must have been to the site to teleport there'. Which means those exploration quests have a little more meaning to them.
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Post by fectin »

Is there any downside to just removing scry?
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Post by Swordslinger »

K wrote: I never understand why people think high-level wizards are gods. They really aren't.

The archmages of the world don't kill the Zhents because the archmages of the world are glass cannons like every other wizard.
All the more reason to be the one on the offensive. The FR paradigm of having wizards sit in castles and towers and wait to be attacked is just plain stupid. Dying isn't a problem. The problem is dying without backup so that that nobody is there to bring in your body and prevent people from trapping your soul. It's highly unlikely somebody takes out Elminster's wizard strikeforce.
As for teleport, I stand by my argument that you can still tell stories with it. Star Trek has decades of stories that prove that it's possible, and their teleportation has a lot fewer restrictions than many other settings.
Teleporting in Star Trek is limited in that it won't work through shields, across a solar system and is often totally removed whenever the story calls for it by any number of technobabble explanations.
I mean, just because there are teleport circles scattered around the world it doesn't mean that they aren't controlled by dangerous forces AND happen to go to the spots where adventures happen. You can just say "Scrying isn't enough for a teleport" and suddenly scry and die vanishes. Literally, the problems with teleport can be fixed with a sentence or two.
Don't even need scry and die, I'm just talking about being able to teleport within a days journey of your target. Even if you have overland flight there, who cares. So long as you have the potential of massing the magical might of several archmagi on a moment's notice and hitting any geographic location with it, this is going to be a huge deal. There's no effective way to defend a place except to have all the high level archmagi banded there. The attacker always has the advantage because he can mass up every wizard he has and appear at your doorstep, raze the place, then be back home for supper.

So it's in the interest of the good aligned wizards of different nations to just band together to help each other out. So when the Simbul has a problem, Elminster, Khelben and a bunch of Halruaan guys show up and fuck shit up over there. Then when Shadowdale has a new threat showing up, everyone shows up at Elminsters place to fuck up that threat.

You may run into a random enemy on a distant plane to which there's no easily accessible teleport circle, but there are not going to be evil cities on your world. All it takes is setting up a single remote outpost with a teleport circle to gate everyone in and then you can take out one of their cities. No city of good is going to ever get conquered, because of this ability to rapidly respond to threats.


As for the argument that the existence of high-level characters invalidates the work of low-level ones, I have to call foul again. People seem to love this argument, even though it has the assumption built into it that high-level characters know about every danger in the world AND aren't currently involved in some other adventure AND care enough to get out of bed for things that can be handled by lower-level characters.
Anyone with a scroll of sending can totally just send over a 911 emergency to one of the archmagi heroes. As for not caring, if they're good aligned, they should care that people are suffering and they can stop it. I don't buy the crap that high level heroes are constantly busy with saving the world 24-7.

This doesn't mean low level people do nothing, but it does mean that failing a low to mid level quest won't have any serious consequences. Even if you fail to stop the warlord, at most that means that Elminster has to devote a day of his time to smacking him down personally. So the end result of your glorious heroic quest is that you saved Elminster a day to do something else.
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