Annoying Game Questions You Want Answered

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:54 am

There's also the Movanic Deva shown as being female, in Fiend Folio. Quite pretty, too. Granted, that's just a generally well-done book, before the MM3 was spawned to make people apathetic (in turn before the MM4 was shat out to piss people off). IIRC the Justice Archon (MM4?) was male.

Pseudonym0 · Post by **Pseudonym0** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:57 am

Out of the loop for a bit, is there a good game that people still play a fair bit that replicates the feel of AD&D a little better?

Maybe it's just me, but every time I see something regarding 3e+ it seems like getting in a game would entail partying with a vampiric halfling paladin/thief who can fly and has weapon specialization in the grenade launcher.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:48 am

Well, there is actual AD&D, although playing it involves associating with people who like AD&D.

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So I tried to join a 3E game, but... I can't tolerate idiots any more. When people offer such astounding advice as "Spend three feats to get a bonus to AC", "Buy Bracers of Armour" and "Lose a caster level to pick up a level of Monk for AC!"), I need to ridicule them, and don't feel like I could possibly enjoy being in a game with them. I'm damaged goods now.

Anyone else suffer from that?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:59 am

Koumei wrote:Well, there is actual AD&D, although playing it involves associating with people who like AD&D.

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So I tried to join a 3E game, but... I can't tolerate idiots any more. When people offer such astounding advice as "Spend three feats to get a bonus to AC", "Buy Bracers of Armour" and "Lose a caster level to pick up a level of Monk for AC!"), I need to ridicule them, and don't feel like I could possibly enjoy being in a game with them. I'm damaged goods now.

Anyone else suffer from that?

Paradoxically, that is why I can't play online games. My in person games are equally as damaged as I am, but online, people are fucking terrible.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:09 am

Pseudonym0 · Post by **Pseudonym0** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:25 am

These are kind of my points.

Really, my ideal game at this point would be a low-magic one in which, for example, the "fighter" archetype doesn't necessarily mean someone swinging the largest object they can handle and encased in enough iron to build a transcontinental railroad who can also take up base jumping sans-parachute as a hobby.

It just seems that I've seen nothing so far that tries to make the archetype more compelling by improving the fighting mechanic rather than just turning them into either pseudo-mages or leviathans that could shrug off getting hit by a train. And yes, I realize AD&D is guilty of the latter, but at least he wasn't riding a dragon while doing it.

Not looking for hardcore realism, but something fantasy-heroic would be nice as opposed to iron age superheroes.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:36 am

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:40 am

Then what you want isn't D&D at all. Basically, you should look for something like the Middle Earth game or something, so that the concept of "fighting man" has room to grow more skilled without the enemies becoming "actual flying ghosts that drain your soul by looking at you".

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:00 am

If people are happily playing nerf-bat Cleric/Monks and casting Cure Light Wounds mid-combat or whatever, just play a really weak class alongside them and show them up. Monk or Ranger. Their DM is obviously handicapping to keep them in it, so you'll do fine and not stress the table by blowing their minds with powerful characters.

If it's really tragic, be a Gnome Charisma-Paladin with no social skills, a tiny bow, and a comically expendable pokemount. Then win D&D with it. Challenge yourself, because the DM obviously won't.

Koumei wrote:I need to ridicule them

To teach people, you don't tell them, you show them. If it's still terrible, thank them for the game and explain that you're just not feeling challenged. All passive-aggressive like.

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:22 am

Pseudonym0 wrote:Out of the loop for a bit, is there a good game that people still play a fair bit that replicates the feel of AD&D a little better?

You could give Hackmaster 4e a try, though it's out of print it can still be 'found' online. I've heard of it being referred to as "2e on steroids", but I don't know if that's the sort of thing you're looking for. You could take a look at Adventure Conqueror King, Myth and Magic and other retroclones and then steal the parts you like from all of them and AD&D.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:31 am

tussock wrote:If people are happily playing nerf-bat Cleric/Monks and casting Cure Light Wounds mid-combat or whatever, just play a really weak class alongside them and show them up. Monk or Ranger. Their DM is obviously handicapping to keep them in it, so you'll do fine and not stress the table by blowing their minds with powerful characters.

If it's really tragic, be a Gnome Charisma-Paladin with no social skills, a tiny bow, and a comically expendable pokemount.

You are confused, it doesn't piss us off because we can't make characters at those levels, it pisses us off that they really do think those are optimized characters. It is the being mistaken part that is annoying.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:39 am

It's an undead-heavy game, and because there are already two Wizards, the DM offered me the UA Unarmoured Defence Bonus variant so I was keen to play a Cleric (because I don't like the 300kg of armour aesthetic, and spending 10,000GP on +2 Full Plate and a +2 Tower Shield works out to a +0 AC Bonus against all those level-draining touch attacks). But that caused all the other players to suddenly want to change to use that variant (I am fine with this), except they then felt it was too much effort so it just shouldn't be allowed.

So I admitted that instead of reworking the character to not have an Armour Class, basically redoing the entire sheet but still as a Cleric, I might just make a Sun Elf Wizard and focus on layering battlefield control, or be a Druid, by which I mean "two polar bears, 24/7".

And they seriously suggested:
A) For AC, just buy Bracers of Armour (Yeah, +2 AC for 4,000GP!)
B) There are feat chains of 2-3 feats that let you add Charisma to AC (because I have all these feats to spare, and my Charisma of +1 is amazing!)
C) Take a level of Monk

In the end I told them that A) there are people I want to avoid on that site (which is true - the one who chased me down and demanded Pathfinder games), and B) the other players give astoundingly bad advice, the stupid might be contagious, so "I think instead of joining I'll just drop off the radar for a while, leave the site and spend more time pursuing solitary hobbies like alcoholism. Someone put ranks in Abuse Magic Device and buy some wands of Lesser Vigour, also don't come crying to me when you all get level drained and nobody can cast Restoration".

I wish those morons the best of luckI hope it's a TPK in the first encounter.

Pseudonym0 · Post by **Pseudonym0** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:08 am

Meh, perhaps I'm not articulating myself well. Probably shouldn't have brought up the concept of the ideal game. AD&D had it's flaws granted, but I could put up with them. Just trying to find a game that brings out that flavour, so to speak.

I don't want to WIN D&D, it's never been an option or a goal in any game I ever played. My point was that at some point it seemed to turn into a MMORPG that was played on paper instead of an honest role-playing game. There was never a "best player" competition in any previous incarnation of D&D I've ever played.

Sure, losing a character sucked, but it was never enough to make anyone go through every source and supplement they owned in order to make the best "build" of a certain class. I just read a thread with a fairly extended conversation on whether a person should play a cleric who worshiped a chaotic good vs a chaotic evil god based entirely on utility of their abilities. I'm thinking maybe that shouldn't be the only factor taken into consideration.

Munchkinism and min/maxing were always around (if those are even still terms), but they weren't the norm. I'm just looking for something that doesn't pander to that mindset, if such a thing exists.

Note: 20th level wizards are supposed to be insanely powerful, if they're more than slightly more commonplace than demigods, someone's doing something wrong.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:29 am

No really. The "feel" of AD&D is that the DM arbitrarily screws you, and decides how everything works based on the results of their latest coke binge, and you shouldn't know how the rules work because fuck you, you're just a player.

If what you want is "low magic", then you need a game (system + setting) that doesn't have high magic as even a thing. It has exceptional people who might have some supernatural tricks up their sleeve (or might not) and who fight nothing more incredible than an ogre or troll.

If you're just bemoaning that the advent of these newfangled Internets, and the fact that 3E puts knowledge of the rules into the hands of everyone, have lead to a world where you can actually educate yourself on what works, call the DM out when they blatantly make shit up, discuss things with each other and actually know what some good benchmarks are... then you managed to pick literally the worst forum to complain to, but there is a barrel of cocks right over there, awaiting your lips.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:39 am

Well, one nice thing about the pre-internet era is that the odds of being able to run a game with a broken system without anyone discovering how broken it is was a lot higher. Now you'd think that after a brief adjustment period this would have led to people producing fewer broken systems, but this has turned out not to be the case.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:42 am

When you ignore Koumei forgetting the Prep-H today for all the buttsore had playing AD&D and understand what it really was for.... it will work for what you want, but if you can find online to buy in PDF or used form, you might try the Conan RPG. The more I read of it, the more interesting it gets, but probably wouldnt replace D&D for me as I have (A)D&D and am fine with it.

Captain_Karzak · Post by **Captain_Karzak** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:24 am

Pseudonym0 wrote:
Munchkinism and min/maxing were always around (if those are even still terms), but they weren't the norm. I'm just looking for something that doesn't pander to that mindset, if such a thing exists.

As other have suggested - what you actually seem to want is a time machine. Because your problem is the internet. Every edition of D&D [and every other RPG system I am aware of] has had tremendous rewards for system mastery, but editions prior to 3rd came before widespread internet access so people could not easily and casually transmit their min-maxing expertise to each other.

That's why, say AD&D, seems like it had less min-maxing. It had nothing to do with the system (or it's players) and everything to do with not being able to reach Frank Trollman Et al on nifty message boards to get brilliant insights into the system.

Anyway, just trawl the GitP forums for a Core Only 3rd ed game. No crazy race/template combos (to be honest, I share your distaste for this) and most players in those games will play casters so incredibly badly that the single-classed fighter in the party will be the dominant force in the game (completely by accident).

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:18 am

Captain_Karzak wrote:No crazy race/template combos (to be honest, I share your distaste for this)

Back in the day, I thought it was awesome, and I can't blame it on being a teenager. But these days I cringe when I see someone wanting to be a Tauric Bugbear-Ankheg, or a Half Prismatic Dragon Celestial Drow or whatever. So yeah, I understand that bit.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:07 am

@Other people are wrong.

I ... yes we are. About almost everything. Good and useful knowledge about how particular things really work in narrow fields of expertise is gained after years of study and then more years of working at it for realz. Almost everything you read and hear is wrong on a fundamental level because it is written by non-experts, because experts actually develop a unique vocabulary that no one else can really understand.

So you notice it in other people about your own expertise, and don't notice it about anyone in all the other fields that you are not an expert in, which is almost everything.

Noticing people being wrong a lot about something just means you've finally found a thing that you really understand in depth. But it's like that for every expert in every field. People also don't understand cars, or the weather, or what police do, or what laws mean, or anything. Doctors try very hard to send you to the right specialist, because the wrong one won't know what the fuck's wrong with you. Because everyone is wrong about almost everything, we just get by anyway.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:56 am

Pseudonym0 wrote:I don't want to WIN D&D, it's never been an option or a goal in any game I ever played. My point was that at some point it seemed to turn into a MMORPG that was played on paper instead of an honest role-playing game. There was never a "best player" competition in any previous incarnation of D&D I've ever played.

Sure, losing a character sucked, but it was never enough to make anyone go through every source and supplement they owned in order to make the best "build" of a certain class. I just read a thread with a fairly extended conversation on whether a person should play a cleric who worshiped a chaotic good vs a chaotic evil god based entirely on utility of their abilities. I'm thinking maybe that shouldn't be the only factor taken into consideration.

Munchkinism and min/maxing were always around (if those are even still terms), but they weren't the norm. I'm just looking for something that doesn't pander to that mindset, if such a thing exists.

Well this is a game design forum, so you're more likely to find people focussed on mechanics here.
And if someone asks if they should take vanilla or chocolate ice-cream(good or evil god), I can't answer that for them or give them any advice. Unless they specify more about their character / campaign / fellow players/preferences.

Yet I can talk about what system mechanics work or don't.

If you want more roleplaying based advice, than you gotto frame your question properly. Like say: what do you think a cleric of <chaotic evil god> would be interested in?

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:34 pm

I don't think you're going to find any new game which recaptures your childhood. It's unlikely that even AD&D has the 'AD&D feel' you are looking for.

That said, you'll get better results if you bring better requirements: what are some elements of the feel you're looking for?

Pseudonym0 · Post by **Pseudonym0** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:02 pm

Thanks for the input folks, aside from the barrel of cocks thing. Will look into a couple of those systems. I honestly didn't realize this was a design forum, had just been fishing around for one with some activity where I might be able to find an online game and happened upon this site.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:00 pm

It's a local joke.

The "In The Trenches" forum hosts some play-by-post games, so you're welcome to play here, certainly.

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:19 pm

Koumei wrote:But these days I cringe when I see someone wanting to be a Tauric Bugbear-Ankheg

Does Tauric Insectile Viletooth Lizardfolk-Ankheg count? Because I totally did play that once, in a generally template-heavy game. Wasn't very effective (he was the weakest character in the party by quite a lot), but it was kind of fun having this giant-lizard-bug-dragon-monster going around telling everyone who crapped themselves upon seeing this monster that his mother said he was beautiful.

EDIT: fixed tags

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:01 pm

I tend to like templates in my games, even though i limit them to generally one per character, they make things more interesting.