With all this talk about game design & theory, why don't we

[Wrenfield]

Without a doubt, FBMF's Gaming Den has provided D&D gamers a fabulous posting forum for discussing the more esoteric and controversial aspects of our beloved game. So here we are - endlessly debating, rules-lawyering, & deconstructing D&D and its various sub-components.

It would seem with all these higher gaming minds generating all this cognitive steam, we'd actually want to put our money where our mouth is and actually play a game of D&D together. You know, like ... online play-by-post.

Is this something that interests any of you D&D rules all-stars? Say, 6 players and 1 DM (or 2 Co-DM's)? Maybe FBMF could provide us a separate sub-forum for creating setup and gaming threads.

This way, we could actually share a social experience together (sigh ... bonding), test rules discrepancies/controversies, and give us some fodder for future threads in the "My Humble Opinion" forum. Even homebrew rules and game mechanics could perhaps be experimented with, using material from the "It's My Own Invention" forum.

Hell, if interest is strong, perhaps multiple games could be run.

Online play-by-post games are slow to progress, but can be really fun with a tight group of people who know each other. Which seems to apply, in my honest opinion, to the coterie of peeps here at the Gaming Den.

And of course, for you smarty-pants rules afficionados, uber rules-lawyers, min-maxified powerslobs, & creative literature writers ... this game gives you a chance to show-off your chops. And we all know the majority of you cats have some egos begging for some spotlight activity.

So ..... anyone interested?

[Essence]

Yep.

I'm actually most interested in seeing SAME in action, but I'd certainly contribute to a d20 game as well, in either role (player or DM).

[fbmf]

You guys are welcome to set this up In The Trenches.

Game On,
fbmf

[Username17]

In general, I've never felt he need to play an on-line D&D game because I already have too many games to manage that aren't online (which is a medium I prefer). However, what the hell? Sure, I'll do it, either as a co-DM or a player or something.

I can promise only recycled plot elements because I am a lazy lazy bastard. However, I have leftover plot elements for:

Endless Winter It's May of the year 1387, and Summer is not coming. The Ice Jarls have announced that they have stolen summer and won't give it back unless and until the tribes of the Winterlands give them vast tribute. With no choices left to them, the tribes have put together all the wealth they can and sent them North under the guard of their greatest heroes. The heroes have been charged to return Summer by any means neccessary. Earth map.
A campaign for 6th level characters, historically the players fail in this quest and Summer really doesn't come.

Mother of Dragons The year is about 2800 BC, and Marduk has slain the mother of all dragons. The reaining dragons have their power and civilization shattered, arguably beyond repair. All of Mesopotamia is falling under the sway of humanoids, and factionalization has ruined any possibility of meaningful draconic resistance. The players represent the last of the clutches laid by the great mother herself, and are the first of the wyrmlings to never see Tiamat. Their task is to carve out an existence over the next thousand years in this new and terrifying world. Earth map, such as it matters.
A campaign for Wyrmling Dragons. Special Dragon rules will be used to make different colors and flavors balanced.

The Salt is Missing The year is 1312 and the people of Klaipeda have noted that the salt just isn't coming in from the mines to the East. Two weeks have passed and the caravan has not arrived. The power of the Wends has long been broken, and the liquidation of the Prussians by the Templars has begun in earnest. Earth map.
An campaign for 2nd level characters - this served as the opening to one of the longest campaigns I've ever run.

Orcish Empire The year is 960 AD Karakhanid Empire is all shiny and new and the ancient Budhist heresies are being rapidly replaced with Islam. Clashes have just begun with the jealous Samanids over the Bukhara Oasis. The Emperor's inclusionary principles of governance have gained substantial loyalty from many of the savage tribes. The PCs begin as elite trouble-shooters for the Empire, navigating political turmoil, language barriers, crime and external threats. Earth Map.
A campaign for 4th level characters or the equivalent. Orcs, Goblins, Wererats, etc. are encouraged.

The Looting of the Temples The year is 1310, in central Borneo. The cycles of life have been relativley undisturbed for 1000 years, but now a religious war threatens to tear everything apart. Armed columns of Muslims are marching in from the North West, only to be met by invading Animist Tribes from the North East. The locals struggle to hold on to their culture and land in the face of a war between foreigners over their corpses. The jungle is being torn asunder by the invaders, and desparate measures are called for. Earth Map.
A campaign for 4th level characters. Historically the PCs lose this war.

Collapsing Empire It's just before the Anvil of Despair (the last time I gave a damn about the Rokugan storyline). The Empire is sickening even as the Emperor does the same. Oni ravage the countryside at will, and the clans have turned upon one another in a frenzy of ambition. A dark power rises in the south and there is no heir. The government has demanded additional levies to maintain order, but the clans are drawing their own bushi together to prepare for war. Nevertheless, castoffs and misfits are being sent into the Emerald Guard, because as yet no family is willing to completely refuse a call for troops. These relatively unwanted bushi must do the tasks that noone else is willing to undertake - to move the shadow back. Rokugan Map.
A Campaign for 2nd level characters.

-Username17

[MrWaeseL]

Count me in.

[Wrenfield]

Thankee kindly, FBMF, for the permission of space and resources. Kudos to Essence for his assertive thumbs-up. And of course, to Frank, whose tablescrap plotlines still look like epic breathtakers.

My own take on the level of play is that the middle levels (like, 7th-13th) offer Gaming Den posters a stronger breadth of options and testing opportunities. This way we can get more exposure to game mechanics that are either interesting and/or controversial than playing the simplified version of a starter game/campaign.

[Essence]

I agree with Wrenfield about the level of the game. I am also nearly wetting myself at the notion of Frank setting the backstory and plot elements of a game, even if he doesn't have the time or energy to fully DM a game.

As such, the logical conclusion is to set up the Endless Winter thang.

[User3]

This sounds awesome, assuming anyone has enough time/commitment to DM.

[Neeek]

Anyone else think it would be fun to try one of these "Historically, the PCs fail" ones?

[Carcharoth]

I'm something of an unknown for my Gaming Den contributions (because they're utterly lacking so far) but I'd be interested in a solid play by post campaign. The game I was involved in on That Other Board seems to have dissolved, as many of these do.

<- because it's the closest thing you have to a pirate.

[MrWaeseL]

We might also want to start discussing houserules now (or are we using a gentleman's agreement?) because I foresee that taking a long time.

[Wrenfield]

In our current state, I think it's imperative that we first get a DM (or 2 co-DM's) to commit to being "God" for this gaming venture.

So much relies on the preferences, rules knowledge/houserules, creativity, and resources for a given DM, that it makes little sense to start preparatory work for the loose collection of players until the DM lays down a loose guideline of game parameters.

Also, if the people who wish to be players starts to rise beyond the playable final number, the DM may wish to audition for the players in his game/campaign via character build submittals. Auditions can also help cull out the serious committed people from the the more casual folks.

**

Final note: as Carcharoth stated earlier, there are numerous potential pitfalls to PbP gaming.

1. The play-by-post pace can be glacial at times. This irks some people. And DM's need to set guidelines for posting rate, auto-piloting, and general participation. IF you *really* want to be a player in one of these games, it behooves you to be downright reliable and enthusiastic. If you commit with a half-ass attitude, it ruins the fun for everybody.

2. Bickering over rules-law bogs down PbP games. Once a DM has been selected, his/her word should be final and accepted. Quick dialogues on rules debates are okay, long diatribes and endless pissiness are not. As an alternative, we can open up an auxiliary thread to argue rules minutiae while play in the main game goes on without impediment.

3. DM's in games like ours need to be as unrestrictive as possible in terms of allowance of official 3.5 WotC D&D material. All books should be allowed, unless the DM has extremely obvious campaign restrictions that make certain mechanics not plausible. If the DM doesn't have the book, the onus of responsibility in using a given game mechanic falls on the player's shoulders to provide the DM and players full text and context of the given game mechanic. In light of the Gaming Den's emphasis on analyzing the full spectrum of D&D gaming, this should also be a given. Besides, the more feats, classes, PrC's, spells, gear, etc. that are allowed and used in the game, the more surprises and interesting combinatorial situations can occur. And that's fun for everybody!

4. Min-maxing is good. Optimizing is good. Players who make builds or wiled game mechanic combos that bring the game to a screeching halt (i.e. "true brokeness") are not good. Power level discrepancies between players will always happen, let's just ensure that the bridge between those power levels isn't rediculous. The DM is within his full right to nix obvious game-crashing garbage that involves endless loops and broken combos. So don't even think about wowing the masses with builds that include stupid tricks involving Artificers, Astral Projection, Shapechange, etc. Granted, we probably won't play at those levels, but you get the picture.

5. DM house rules are cool and expected. But since we are all 3.5 rules savvy here at the Gaming Den, excessive house rules rarely benefit the game or the player's play experience. So hopefully we can keep those limited to a reasonable number to avoid confusion and mass re-education and stuff.

6. Players bale a lot in PbP games. This screws-up party balance and roles. And makes adding new or replacement characters difficult once you are mid-story. There are numerous ways to combat this problem, which we can talk about once the DM commits and he states his preferred number of players that he wishes to manage. Again, players should be honest in describing their commitment level.

**

Anyway, just some thoughts. And hopefully, a savvy, creative, and charismatic person will arise and take up the mantle of the Gaming Den's first official "DM God".

[dbb]

I'd certainly be interested, especially since I'm not in any FTF games right now and my existing on-line committments are rather slow. I have some serious doubts about my rules-fu being able to keep up with the rest of the folks here, but it sounds interesting anyway.

My preference is for low to mid-level (3-6, 5-8, 6-9), as being both easier to prevent massive brokenness in, and also likely to lead to slightly more diverse groups. Even as it is, at anything much over 5th level I'd anticipate mainly clerics, druids, wizards, the occasional rogue -- possibly this would be a good spot for house-ruling.

I don't much care about diversity of material; if someone wants to run with just the core books that's fine with me, if someone wants to run anything-goes that's also fine.

Out of Frank's ideas, I rather like Looting of the Temples and The Salt Is Missing, though Orcish Empire and Collapsing Empire are appealing too.

--d.

[Username17]

I had originally envisioned something starting between the levels of 2 and 6, as that's where it is possible to make an iconic party where everyone appears to be contributing equally. As Deirdre mentions, there really isn't a lot of incentive to play a "warrior" after level 8 comes around (unless that "warrior" is actually a Cleric or Druid).

OTOH, if people actually want to have this be an exercise in making high level stuff function (at all), then I suppose any of those adventure seeds could be scaled up without fuss to 10th level. Except Mother of Dragons, which is mandatorily starting at low level and then proceeding to epic at a relatively qick clip (since PCs gain class levels and growth hit dice).

In addition, if people really want higher level games, I could bust out some of these:

Wrath of the Giants It's 2000 BC in Ur, and the East is all turmoil and madness. The Giant King, long a position of only theoretical importance, has gathered the disparate tribes into a war machine of seemingly unstoppable might. The Farsis fell to their blades in only days, and the Western empires are hanging together in attempt to avoid hanging separately. The entrails have been read and the future does not look good. What is the secret to the new military and political success of Agranazheb? Earth Map.
A campaign for characters of 13th-18th level.

A Sinking Ship The worlds overlap to a degree, and in the space between there accumulates flotsam from all of them. Lost ships, pieces of wood, and even people drift on the sea and all of them find themselves at last at The Island. Floating at the juncture between, The Island is composed of ships lashed together, driftwood tied together, and even the occassional piece of masonry, its towers extend 700 meters into the sky and trail at least as far under the water. From the halls and doors of The Island you can get anywhere, and trade from all over flourishes. But lately the portents have been ill. Great quakes have travelled through the halls, and the Southern Tower fell into the sea. Each of the factions has at least one answer as to what is going on, and open conflict seems the sure result. Modified Sygil Map.
A campaign for 11th- 15th level.

The way I see it, there is a profound trade-off between being able to play at higher level and being able to play by the book. The Artificer Loop is available as a single classed character with no extrenal inputs at level 12. A by-the-book Wizard can chain bind his way to unlimited Wishes at level 9.

The higher level we go, the less like Andy Collins' D&D the game will per force look. That might be what some people are looking for, since many people are looking for ways to play at high level without having the game fall apart. But I know that some other people are looking to just play a "normal" game with "normal" rules. It seems like a favored starting level poll is needed over and above a favored setting poll.

-Username17

[User3]

1118007285[/unixtime]]
A Sinking Ship The worlds overlap to a degree, and in the space between there accumulates flotsam from all of them. Lost ships, pieces of wood, and even people drift on the sea and all of them find themselves at last at The Island. Floating at the juncture between, The Island is composed of ships lashed together, driftwood tied together, and even the occassional piece of masonry, its towers extend 700 meters into the sky and trail at least as far under the water. From the halls and doors of The Island you can get anywhere, and trade from all over flourishes. But lately the portents have been ill. Great quakes have travelled through the halls, and the Southern Tower fell into the sea. Each of the factions has at least one answer as to what is going on, and open conflict seems the sure result. Modified Sygil Map.
A campaign for 11th- 15th level.

I have to say that this sounds like one of the most entertaining novel-spinoff campaigns I've seen.
But I also don't see why it coulden't be done at low levels too.

[Wrenfield]

]I had originally envisioned something starting between the levels of 2 and 6, as that's where it is possible to make an iconic party where everyone appears to be contributing equally. As Deirdre mentions, there really isn't a lot of incentive to play a "warrior" after level 8 comes around (unless that "warrior" is actually a Cleric or Druid).

I respectfully disagree here. But only in circumstances where some serious multiclassing and PrC application is built into said meatshield-type. Standard Fighter-8 builds royally blow, but if you get cute with some min-maxed builds, that studhammer can still dish comparatively well in combat (to the battle cleric and the druid) - although he'll still probably rank out of combat due to lack of skills and/or magic.

The higher level we go, the less like Andy Collins' D&D the game will per force look. That might be what some people are looking for, since many people are looking for ways to play at high level without having the game fall apart. But I know that some other people are looking to just play a "normal" game with "normal" rules. It seems like a favored starting level poll is needed over and above a favored setting poll.

Good idea!

Here's my take on it. I honestly think that if this game gets off the ground, we'll have just barely enough people who are willing to commit seriously to the game. Losing one of them in the game would probably suck. Therefore, I'd like to see the game start at a level where we could get our characters raised/resurrected/whatever if death comes a-knockin'. We'll probably all put some serious effort into building our characters ... that's why just rolling up new ones won't be as fun nor will the replacement character reintegration be smooth (most likely).

I also like the idea of Teleport being available to us in the event we gotta travel around a lot or need quick access to rest or raising centers. Therefore, I think we should start around level 9 or so. At least.

-----

As far as scenarios go, I like all of Frank's ideas. Although the party druid will likely bend the game backwards in the Sinking Ship scenario.

[dbb]

1118007285[/unixtime]]
The higher level we go, the less like Andy Collins' D&D the game will per force look. That might be what some people are looking for, since many people are looking for ways to play at high level without having the game fall apart. But I know that some other people are looking to just play a "normal" game with "normal" rules. It seems like a favored starting level poll is needed over and above a favored setting poll.

You have my opinion -- but I should add that this is primarily an evaluation of the existing D&D rules, rather than a preferred power level. I'm completely okay with playing world-shattering power (heck, the game I've spent the majority of my adult life involved in is the Amber DRPG), but I think, as Frank says, this is going to end up requiring heavy patching. The trouble with that is that I would expect it to be very difficult to come up with something that feels like D&D to everyone involved.

On the other hand, I'd be very cheerful to be proven wrong, but inventing and playtesting what's essentially an expansion to an existing game system is a very different beast from just running a D&D game, essentially adding the mechanics design tasks to the campaign design tasks.

--d.

[Username17]

I have to say that this sounds like one of the most entertaining novel-spinoff campaigns I've seen.

Heh. Which novel?

But I also don't see why it coulden't be done at low levels too.

Any setting can be sculpted to run at any level. There's no reason that Robilar can't be a 9th level character based on the flavor descriptions. The thing is that it takes a certain amount of effort to port thigs around.

Making Forgotten Realms function at a low level is possible. It can be done. It just requires that you restat everything. And I mean everything. It's a lot of work. And that's exactly the point of taking rehashed plot ideas and encounters that I made but were for whatever reaso unused. It saves effort on my part.

The Sinking Ship arc is based loosely on the Planescape universe, and making it function for 6th level party would envolve work. So that isn't going to happen.

I could run a game at any level in any setting, based on any historical period or fictional locale. But I'm only actually going to set up something where most of the work is already done, because I am a lazy lazy bastard.

Consider the universe of Dominions II: It has 17 different nations in it (20 if you count Oceania, Themeskyra, and Hoburg), and there are roughly 3 time periods to worry about. You could pick any of the major events (such as the Malediction of Ulm or Caelum's Great Thaw) and set a campaign in it (or in one of the other nations at the time the event is happening). The map is kind of abstract, but the players could go for an entire campaign interacting just with a few of the magic sites. Who wouldn't be OK with a crawl through Mount Chaining or The Inverted Tower?

So with a completely attainable amount of effort, one could set a camapign of any level in any setting. That's not spastastically difficult. But it's more effort than I want to put into a first online thingy. The effort to run The Sinking Ship has already been done iff the characters are over 10th level.

Similarly, The Giant King could be "A Cloud Giant", causing the whole thing to be an adventure suitable for 8th level characters. But again, converting things to that degree requires effort on my part, so it just aint happening.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1118031555[/unixtime]]
You have my opinion -- but I should add that this is primarily an evaluation of the existing D&D rules, rather than a preferred power level. I'm completely okay with playing world-shattering power (heck, the game I've spent the majority of my adult life involved in is the Amber DRPG), but I think, as Frank says, this is going to end up requiring heavy patching. The trouble with that is that I would expect it to be very difficult to come up with something that feels like D&D to everyone involved.

I'd be really curious to see the entirety of Frank's high level house rules, so I definitely hope it's high level.

[User3]

Ah, one of those cases of "great minds"?
I actually guessed that was probably the case, but I also figured it would be a good way to advertise one of my favorite current authors.

China Miéville's [counturl=18]The Scar.[/counturl]

Although I usually find Marxists terribly boring, this guy is a great author. He could probably make even The Communist Manifesto not seem like a bunch of anti-industialist reactionary bullshit.

On second thought, even Miéville couldn't do that. But it would have made for a much better read.

And I realize what a pain in the ass retrofitting a campaign world can be. And I'm not suggesting that you re-write one of your campaigns for a little online game. I once re-wrote Planescape to Alternity.

What I like about Planescape-esque campaigns is how arbitrary character power is. Because there is always something weaker, and always something more powerful, and PCs are usually a lot more useful to everyone alive then dead (Because belief = power).

So you only ever fight with 'equal' foes (to whom you actually represent a real threat), or with RP/cleverness. Or sometimes a player makes a bif mistake and everyone [almost?] dies.

[Username17]

Not to get this thread even more sidetracked but:

[*] I am also a Marxist.
[*] The Communist Manifesto is in fact terribly boring, but it is short, and all of its demands have been met - it really is an absolute requirement of modern economies that you have centralized banking, 8 hour work days, and governmental oversight of working conditions.
[*] I hate China Miéville's writing. Really. I can't read any of his books for more than five pages without deciidng that chewing off my own arm to escape reading the next five pages is sounding like a fair trade.

But this isn't about authors we like or don't like, nor is it about what economic and historical theories we find convincing and/or readable. It's not actually at all meaningful to this discussion that the Communist Manifesto is a book that paints Fordists as a positive and neccessary step in the path of history that will eventually be in turn buried by more democratic and egalitarian regimes in the future. Nor is it germain to harp on the fact that the last 25 years have shown a worldwide growth and dominance of Neoliberalism, which is itself less egalitarian and less democratic than the previous Fordist regimes.

Call me an optimist, but I still think the distant future will look more like Star Trek than like Starship Troopers. Of course, we are in general talking about some sort of Fantasy setting, which means that the most modern available economic system is Mercantilism. Goods and services are bartered for directly by means of precious metal intermediaries, and the most complex pre-corporate/commune system available is the Guild.

-Username17

[dbb]

1118090967[/unixtime]]I'd be really curious to see the entirety of Frank's high level house rules, so I definitely hope it's high level.

This reminds me of another axis of preference, which is, "How experimental a game do you want this to be?" Where one end of the axis is someone who plays by the rules as holy writ handed down by the word of God and is interested solely in the problem-solving and roleplaying generated by those ideas as a framework, and the other end is someone who doesn't actually have any interest in what happens in the game so much as how and why it happens and how that illustrates what in the rules works and doesn't work.

I fall rather more on the former side than the latter myself, but even I'm not so crazy as to suggest playing a game without any house rules -- but I try not to make the mechanics the focus of what I'm doing.

--d.

[Username17]

I regard that axis of preference to be inherently linked to power level. The higher the power level the game starts with and/or aspires to attain, the more house rules are required to keep the disparity of power between players down to a manageable level.

At first level, even the Monk is capable of dropping opponents with one swing and the Wizard's ability to clear a room is sufficiently cimilar to the Barbarian's and sufficiently limited in options and charges that the Wizard isn't dominating play. As written.

At 17th level, however, the party Druid can become a better Fighter than the Fighter as a free action once per round. And she can still raise the dead and fly. As written, this requires a heap of house rules to make power disparities even fall within the RNG amongst the party members. You can't even avoid House Rules with the extremely modest requirement of no infinite loops. The house rule list in that case is actually quite large.

So I figure that if someone is asking for a campaign expected to run from 2nd to 6th level, they are implicitly asking for a game that is directly comparable to the one presented in 3rd edition source material. If they are requesting a Campaign expected to run from 11th to 20th, they are implicitly asking for heavy house ruling to affect virtually every aspect of play.

-Username17

[dbb]

I think it's closely linked, but not entirely; while heavy houseruling is nearly mandatory in high-level games, low- and mid-level games offer the option to experiment with all sorts of house rules without requiring it.

Of course, someone who was sufficiently crazy could be both low on the experimentalist axis and high on the power level axis, finding the whole idea of a party composed exclusively of druids, clerics, and a wizard or two -- all wielding game-breaking infinite power loops -- to be a pretty cool campaign. But I wouldn't expect that from anyone on this board.

--d.

[Josh_Kablack]

Yinz dither too much.

I'm the half-orc. I hit him first.