Plain 3.5 - PHB+DMG+MM1?

[Crissa]

Hey! I've got a new DM, and he's working up a new game, and he wants to do 3.5, because that's what the most of his players know...

...But he's only played d20 a couple times.

Now, I've run him through the basic pitfalls of cross-classing and level problems; Dire Wolf Fu and Wildshape, etc.

What are some basic features of the 'basic' setup we should be aware of? What under-level-10 houserules should we consider?

I've been hoping to dig it out of here, but the search function is terrible, so the best idea seemed to be - ask you guys.

Besides, it's been kinda quiet here of late!

-Crissa

[User3]

How about this: the stock 3.5 feats absolutely suck for most magic-using classes at level 1-10. Even post-10, they're mainly meh.

No one's going to cuk up a 1st-level slot for an extended daze, for instance, when sleep's available. At low levels, item creation's solid... if you've the time to do it. Been playing World's Largest Dungeon with stock 3.5 characters for several months. There's no downtime, and no materials with which to craft (the GM's a tad... uh... stingy). I almost took the Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for my cleric because there was nothing else to take that did 'im any good.

I switched to taking prerequisite feats for the loremaster prestige class because... well... at least it was better than staying cleric forever.

[Murtak]

If you have access to any other books at all you should seriously consider giving everyone access to them, at least as far as character creation and advancement is concerned. You can always leave out spells and items, or at least let them trickle in slowly. But character options are not only fun, they also help to balance the character types out a little more.

In 3rd edition core the primary casters already break the game, outfight the fighters and outtrick the tricksters. Adding more books to the mix lets the fighter types catch up a tiny bit.

Apart from that ...
- try to have characters of equal power (which can be hard if you have, say, a druid in there).
- encourage fighter types to multiclass liberally. Fighter 2, paladin 2 instead of fighter 4 and the likes
- use fractional BAB and saves
- do not give out too little cash or items. The non-casters desperately need that stuff to stay competitive a little longer
- no prayer beads of karma
- give the monk a full BAB
- seriously consider kicking polymorphing, divine favor, divine power, tenser's and the likes from the spell lists and make wildshape a scouting-only thing.

You might consider just posting the characters your group considers playing here and ask for advice. Just to make sure you do not have any fighter / bard / sorcerers in there.

[Username17]

[*] It's not just spelljockeys who have that problem finding decent feats. Feats suck for everybody, which makes Fighters rather pitiful. To get a decent ability (such as Cleave or Improved Trip) takes two feats. To get a feat takes two Fighter levels. A Fighter takes four levels to get a decent ability!

The 3.5 feat standard is Weapon Focus and Spell Focus. And honestly, if one player had one of those and another player didn't, and they couldn't see the attack rolls or savingthrows, the players would probably never figure out that one of them was better than the other. That's not good. If you took all of the 3.5 feats out of the game entirely, the game wouldn't be much different. If you handed out a 3.5 core feat every level, it wouldn't make much of a difference either.

[*] Two Weapon Fighting sucks. Alot. In d20 TWF allows you to trade feats and movement, and AoO damage, and 2 points of attack, all for allowing you to use your static damage bonuses twice in a Full Attack action versus just using a zweihander. In 3.5 core, there are no available static damage bonuses to use! Check it out, the only thing you can double up on is Weapon Specialization, which doesn't even pay for the to-hit bonus versus powerattacking for 2 on a Greatsword. It's not an option. For anybody.

[*] If you have a Level Allowance, you aren't even playing the game. 3.5 Core includes the ability to play a monster - in a game where the rest of the party play characters who expect to fight whatever monster you are in hordes for breakfast. A Gnoll is considered a minor encounter for a first level party, but you are expected to play one in a 3rd level game - where you are a warrior with the same attack bonus as the party wizard. More powerful monsters are even more absurd, as the game charges you levels for monster hit dice (which are inferior to PC levels), and then on top of that charges you levels for monster abilities. So the game charges you two levels for a package that is often not worth one level.

[*] Wizards and Druids have access to multiple power loops at 10th level. That's high enough level for a Druid to reawaken himself, and it's high enough level for a Wizard to Chain-bind himself infinite wishes. You will require a pledge of not completely fvcking running away with the game by any Wizard, Druid, or Cleric in the party.

[*] Bards suck. The 3.5 Bard sucks worse than the 3.0 Bard could hope to suck. The 3.5 Bard needs to keep taking Bard levels to keep his abilities scaling, and his abilities scale slower than any other spellcaster (even the Sorcerer). So if you abandon the class for anything (even a PrC), you become a multicaster and your old abilities stop scaling - in essence every Bard level you ever had is worth nothing after a few levels. But if you keep taking Bard levels, eventually everything you can do becomes a minor footnote that fits neatly inside what the Cleric and Wizard can do. Also, look at 3.5 Perform any time you wonder why your 3.5 Bard doesn't seem to be able to do more than a 3.0 Bard could even though you technically have more skill points.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

With core only, divine favor and divine power aren't really all that problematic. Just make sure to use the errata for divine favor, and you should be more or less set there. Without divine metamagic or persistent spell, the cleric archer just isn't going to be anything worth worrying about. You won't be able to quicken divine favor until 9th level, and divine power and righteous miught can never be quickened. So long as you're utilizing actions to cast buffs it isn't all that bad.

Spell wise polymorph, and possibly teleport effects are the only ones you really need to be concerned about. Teleport mainly because it can break the previously mentioned buffing paradigm.

The main problem usually happens to be the fighter types who get really screwed without many of the better feats to choose from. Fighter types have to go barbarian/fighter or paladin/fighter.

[Username17]

Before 10th level, the errata to Divine Favor doesn't do anything, so it's still a problem.

And in 3.5, the Quicken Rods are Core, so the Cleric can quicken Divine Power at 7th level.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1121020327[/unixtime]]Before 10th level, the errata to Divine Favor doesn't do anything, so it's still a problem.

And in 3.5, the Quicken Rods are Core, so the Cleric can quicken Divine Power at 7th level.

Well a +3 bonus isn't all that big or worthwhile, and while quicken rods are indeed core, 10th level PCs or lower don't have much money to throw around. It's 75,500 gp for a moderate quicken rod, the average character wealth for a 10th level character is 49,000, so you don't have to worry about the party cleric getting ahold of one so long as you're anywhere close to the wealth guidelines. Even a lesser quicken rod is 35,000. So you won't actually be seeing those for a while either.

At worst, you're looking at quickened divine favors and normally cast divine powers and righteous mights, none of which is really all that bad.

[User3]

The easiest way to "cleanse" Core 3.5 is to take a look at the RPGA website. They neatly fix about 90% of the broken stuff in basic DnD. They also have a list of several of the Complete books and they cleanse those too. link

As long as you don't adopt their wealth/XP system, you should be good to go. They even nerf Polymorph down to acceptable, but still pretty powerful, levels.

[Murtak]

I only skimmed that link, but I don't see it fixing much, if anything. Sure, it fixes firbolg polymorphing, but kelvezu polymorphing is still in. Reincarnation randomly removes your character form the campaign. Gate explicitely allows you to grab and kill the BBEG. Several abilities only work if you have special DM permission, or work differently if you do.

[User3]

I only skimmed that link, but I don't see it fixing much, if anything.

Then read it.

Sure, it fixes firbolg polymorphing, but kelvezu polymorphing is still in.

Well, since you are limited to MM I, there are no kelvezu. The small number of monsters you do get access to don't have Ex. abilities as cool as the kelvezu, and you don't get in any ability thats not an Ex. (like Aboleth memory eating)....so whats your point?

Which monsters that are both in the MM and allowed by their rules break the game in a terrible way?

Reincarnation randomly removes your character form the campaign. Gate explicitely allows you to grab and kill the BBEG. Several abilities only work if you have special DM permission, or work differently if you do

I did say "90%." Several of their solutions don't work very well.

I think its a good starting point, at least, and a good way to "sanitize" a load of Complete books without having to read a thousand pages and make case by case decisions.

[Username17]

No. These don't even begin to fix D&D of any of its actual problems. The RPGA rubrics are created for one reason and one reason only:

To stop PCs from making a lot of money.

WTF!? I don't give a damn whether PCs have a fat wad of cash, and them getting or not getting one in a static party isn't a balance issue because the DM is writing all the adventures for the same group of PCs session after session.

Implementing the RPGA guidelines is the single fastest way to ruin a campaign that is available to anyone. Ever. And it only makes things more convoluted and bizzare: under LG guidelines, if you Shapechange into a creature you gain every "natural ability" (which is everything that isn't given an ability description), and you don't get every "attribute that is not specifically given an ability descriptor that you can normally assume within the parameters of the spell cast". Figure that one out.

Worst set of guidelines in the world. The RPGA guidelines are exclusively concerned with attempting to manage the one thing that a home campaign doesn't have to give a damn about. And it was written by hacks who don't seem to think that the Free Vacation on the Negative Material Plane - No Save is a problem.

-Username17

[User3]

Implementing the RPGA guidelines is the single fastest way to ruin a campaign that is available to anyone. Ever. And it only makes things more convoluted and bizzare: under LG guidelines, if you Shapechange into a creature you gain every "natural ability" (which is everything that isn't given an ability description), and you don't get every "attribute that is not specifically given an ability descriptor that you can normally assume within the parameters of the spell cast". Figure that one out.

Ok, well, you are wrong. Here are the actual guidelines for Polymorphing and Shapechanging

Spells that Cause a Change in Form (Examples include polymorph, polymorph any object, shapechange)

* The caster may only change into creatures listed in the Monster Manual v.3.5 unless providing campaign documentation allowing otherwise. Creatures with templates, and advanced versions are not allowed.
* If an attribute of a monster is only listed in the general or combat description of a creature and is not specifically given an ability descriptor that you can normally assume within the parameters of the spell cast (such as exceptional for polymorph or exceptional and supernatural for shapechange), you do not gain that attribute when assuming that creature's form.
* An example of this is the hydra; many of the body and head attributes are listed in the combat description of the monster without an ability descriptor, and thus these attributes would not be gained when using a spell to turn into a hydra (but abilities such as fast healing and many others in the statistics block would be gained).

Listen, if you aren't going to read the link (or the associated posts that talk about ignoring the wealth rules), then your opinion is just misinformtion. Stop trying you make other people's games less fun.

Telling people to ignore a tool that does a decent job of balancing the game... thats just cruel. We all can't live in a world where theoretical and unwritten homebrew rules fix every problem in a game.

[Username17]

No, I seriously read the damned link. I also read the spell description. The spell description says that you get natural abilities. Natural abilities are things that don't have (Ex), (Su), or (Sp) next to them. So:

an attribute of a monster is only listed in the general or combat description of a creature and is not specifically given an ability descriptor that you can normally assume within the parameters of the spell cast

Is a null set for any of the spells in the Alter Self chain. If an ability doesn't have an (Ex) tag on it, that means that it specifically has the null tag, and that's something that you specifically get within the parameters of the spell.

I know that most people, even Skip Williams and Andy Collins, have no clue what the polymorph abilities actually do anymore. The whole spell inheritance is such a FUBAR non-starter that it's just a needlessly confusing hassle-fest.

But having people write pronouncements trying to "clarify" them when they don't know what they really say is obviously not helpful. This isn't a decent tool for balancing the game. You've played in the RPGA. It's just an exercise in onfusing misanthropic rulesmongering that makes no god damned sense. Telling people to try to make sense of their tirades, that's cruel.

In order to fit RPGA guidelines into something remotely playable would require scrapping more than half their write-up, and that means that it's worse than starting from nothing at all.

-Username17

[Crissa]

Yo, you two, break it up! This isn't an RPGA game, and Jon is with it enough to notice that a sentence is a fragment - he clued into the Elemental Dragons in Wildshape pretty quick once I pointed out it the rules don't ever specify a logical XOR.

Anyhow, to keep it simple, I've got him conned into a Paladin to Fourth, ditching the Turn Undead for Special Mount... Then go Sorceror and choose my mount as my Familiar to keep him around and then tweak from there.

But today I tossed him some questions:
[*]What Regional/Racial Languages? As he's a history buff like Frank, I think he'll bite into using Regional rather than mostly Racial languages like standard D&D... But he apparently hadn't set that yet.
[*]Fractional Saves, BAB, Caster Level? To promote cross-classing easily, suggesting taking out the frontloading +2 of Saves only to 'one per good save' and giving 'Caster Level' out inverse to BAB... Dunno if he'll bite on the last, but that'll help Sorc/Warlock DCs. Wizard... Dunno.
[*]Apprenticing: 4x8+Int Skill Points for everyone at first level; Additional Commoner/Aristocrat/Adept/Warrior skill list to spend these as Class skills; ..Did I forget anything?
[*]Sorc 'skip 2nd level on spell table'.
[*]What Knowledge skills are in the world?
[*]No one gets to be a Bard, please?
[*]Fighters get a Feat every level, yes?
[*]No 'blank' levels?
[*]Give the Sorcers a Skill list, please?
[*]Are Class skills always class skills?

Those are the ones I thought of tonight, anyhow. Also, he was thinking of using one of the 'Default Array' sets for stats since rolling 4x4d6 apparently gave the group too much of a spread for his taste.

What else was I missing?

He dug up a list of all splatbook feats which he quickly scanned over and mused, "Some of these are really terrible ideas." And still thinks Druids are cool combat characters... Hmm.

-Crissa

PS: What happened to the ordered list tags?

[Neeek]

1121067608[/unixtime]]
Those are the ones I thought of tonight, anyhow. Also, he was thinking of using one of the 'Default Array' sets for stats since rolling 4x4d6 apparently gave the group too much of a spread for his taste.

I liked what Frank did for the one we're trying to start here. Basically, you get a choice of a couple of different arrays, and everyone gets to choose from the same pile of stats. Neat idea. I'll definitely use it next time I run a game.

[Crissa]

1121068191[/unixtime]]I liked what Frank did for the one we're trying to start here. Basically, you get a choice of a couple of different arrays, and everyone gets to choose from the same pile of stats. Neat idea. I'll definitely use it next time I run a game.

Linky? Or description?

-Crissa

[color=FF0000]Edit:[/color] Aha! It Ends in Darkness;
'Select from the following two arrays,'[*]12, 6, 13, 15, 13, 18[*]14, 13, 14, 12, 16, 15

Thanks!

[User3]

No, I seriously read the damned link. I also read the spell description. The spell description says that you get natural abilities.

And the RPGA rules for these spells are different, as shown in the link. It not Skip or anyone else not reading their own rules, or a stealth clarification. Its the RPGA changing the rules in a very clear and open way. They do it to make pick-up games even minimally viable.

It doesn't matter what the spell says. Its an RPGA-only change.

So any argment based on them supposedly not knowing the rules or creating contradictory rules is spurious and feeble.

---------------------

Now, I have a lot of problems with the RPGA. A lot. Huge loads.

However, the basic rules they've flagged as broken are the grossest and most obviously abusive rules. They don't catch the subtle stuff like how scaling pricing for stats is unbalanced and how Druids and Polymorphers laugh, or how DM/players shop for items by running specific adventures for each other, but they do catch a mountain of generally poor rules.

Not all of their fixes actually work, but its a good place to start.

[dbb]

The RPGA guidelines make for an interesting read.

About the first half of the rules are things that ... they aren't exactly meaningless, and in a situation where you have to keep strict equality between a large number of players who operate under multiple GMs, they have value. But the average house campaign will not need to follow or care about most of these things. Some of them are actively harmful to a regular campaign, like the one where the equipment of a character who dies apparently vanishes into the ether.

The second half includes spell "clarifications". If these things are RPGA houserules -- okay, that's fine; the RPGA is entitled to require people who are involved with it to play under whatever house rules they feel like. But, let's be honest -- in a lot of cases house rules is exactly what they are, not "clarifications", and calling them something they aren't does present a potential for confusion.

Now, as to the actual house rules. Some of them are incomprehensible to me without knowing exactly how long a TU is or how many of them a character gets -- I have no idea whether this makes casting Clone a crippling exercise or something you do in a weekend. Some of them are inoffensive -- the Drawmij's Instant Summon rules honestly don't matter because I'm never going to cast the spell, and you won't either. Some of them are puzzling, like Fabricate, where the item goes away at "the end of the adventure" and can't be sold -- I have no idea how this is supposed to be adjudicated in a real campaign beyond the DM just saying "you can't"; it's painfully obvious that what they really wanted was a whole new version of the spell, and the "clarifications" they offer instead are pathetically inadequate. Some of them fix half the problems with the spell and completely ignore the other half, like Gate. Some of them are either pointless or redundant in an ongoing campaign (specifying the legal sources of spells to duplicate with Wish/Limited Wish). Some of them directly contradict the existing text of a spell for no reason that I can determine (was Mirror Image so good it needed to be nerfed?). Some of them are so brutal that they make baby Jesus cry, like Reincarnate irrevocably removing the target from play 17% of the time.

It's not the worst set of house rules I've ever seen, but as a place to start, I'm not sure you wouldn't be better off just tracking down a copy of the Problematic Spell List.

--d.

[RandomCasualty]

1121117487[/unixtime]] But the average house campaign will not need to follow or care about most of these things. Some of them are actively harmful to a regular campaign, like the one where the equipment of a character who dies apparently vanishes into the ether.

I actually use this one in my own higher level campaigns, though it's more of a gentleman's agreement as opposed to a game effect. Basically if a character dies and isn't resurrected, any equipment he purchased with his starting wealth is pretty much gone. While it doesn't vanish immediately, PCs pretty much know that it is going to get stolen or disappear at some point before they can benefit from it in any meaningful way.

If you don't do that, the wealth guidelines pretty much go out the window, since people can just make crap characters and let them die.

[Murtak]

Well, you certainly need to keep an eye on how much cash and items the group has, but I do not see the need to take it away from them. Just make sure it is roughly equally distributed (or at least goes to the weakest characters) and then up the challenges they face.

Any in any case, this:

If you don't do that, the wealth guidelines pretty much go out the window, since people can just make crap characters and let them die.

should not ever be a problem. Do you actually play with people who pull these kind of stunts?

[dbb]

I really think that's an issue external to the rules. If you can make up a crap character and let them die so the rest of the group gets their swag, you can make up a crap character with an ascetic streak who just plain gives swag away to other members of the party, and what are you going to do about that? Insist that people can't give each other stuff?

No. That's completely retarded. If someone is attempting to game the system in one of these ways, you slap them upside the head and move on. Coming up with elaborate and suspension-of-disbelief-destroying rules to prevent it is a total waste of our time.

--d.

[Josh_Kablack]

Things in need of a single consistant ruling from the DM:

1. Charging. (As part of this, Ride-By Attack needs to actually work)

2. Alignment as a whole. (As a minor part of this, Prot vs Chaos, Good or Law needs to actually work)

3. Tripping on AoOs and the provocation from standing (oddly Skippy made the right call here)

4. What the fuck "precision-based" damage actually is.


Things in need of massive overhaul:

1. Polymorphing

2. Stacking of skill bonus spells and items. Honestly 3.5 cleaned up 90% of the abuse potential from 3.0 here. This of course means that the remaining 10% galls me something fierce.

Things which could stand to be changed, but changes are not essential:

1. Item Creation
2. Bless Weapon, Reincarnation
3. Two-Weapon Fighting. I gotta disagree with Frank here. From levels 1-5 2wf is probably the best way for a PC to get to make more than a single attack/round. It's at levels 6+ where almost everyone gets to make multiple attacks that 2wf gets to suck other than in specialized builds. In a 20 level game, I'd call changing this a bigger deal, in a 10 level game, I can live with it.
4. About half the feats in the PHB

Things which just really suck to take as a player but won't hurt your game to have them as filler:

1. Several of the DMG Prestige Classes
2. The 3.5 Bard
3. The Monk
4. Fighter Level 3.
5. The Half-Elf and Half Orc
6. The following spells Blight,
Bull's Strength et al, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Hold Person, Ice Storm, Stoneskin, Summon Monster I
7. Manyshot. Perhaps the single worst feat in core 3.5 prior to a +11 BAB.

[User3]

Manyshot is actually a startlingly good feat for a cleric archer with the animal domain.

Shapechange into a choker sometime, layer something on it.

But it mostly sucks.

[Josh_Kablack]

And just how are you casting Shapechange in a game where BAB is still below 11...?

[dbb]

1121126701[/unixtime]]
3. Two-Weapon Fighting. I gotta disagree with Frank here. From levels 1-5 2wf is probably the best way for a PC to get to make more than a single attack/round. It's at levels 6+ where almost everyone gets to make multiple attacks that 2wf gets to suck other than in specialized builds. In a 20 level game, I'd call changing this a bigger deal, in a 10 level game, I can live with it.

I don't know -- that still means the TWF guy is sucking for half of the game. It's maybe not in as urgent need of houseruling as some other stuff, but if someone in the game is interested in taking it, I would definitely put it on my list of "this needs to get fixed".

--d.