PrC Requirements

[Essence]

Where do we get the idea from that a Prestige Class only checks it's entrance requirements at 1st level? Because everywhere I look, I see this rule:

If a character no longer meets the requirements of a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or special abilites granted by the class.

So, what, if you no longer meet the requirements, you can take the levels, but you don't get any of the goodies?

[RandomCasualty]

Pretty much yeah... it's just like any other prereq, like the power attack feat for instance. If you lose the strength required to use it, via strength damage or losing your belt of giant strength, then you still have the feat, you just can't use it anymore.

[dbb]

Well, where are the "everywheres" you're looking?

I mean, here's what I see in the 3.5 SRD, "Prestige Classes" section:

Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.

You will find the text you cite in (a) the 3.0 SRD and other 3.0 material, and (b) Complete Warrior, in a section that appears to be just a cut and paste from Sticks and Stones and presumably was not altered from 3.0. I'm fairly sure you won't find it in the 3.5 SRD, Complete Divine, or Complete Arcane (though it's possible I just plain haven't found it). Unless I'm just totally looking right past that text in the 3.5 SRD, though, I would presume that Complete Warrior is the misprint, rather than the other books, and that this is a change from 3.0 to 3.5.

--d.

[fbmf]

1122867365[/unixtime]]Pretty much yeah... it's just like any other prereq, like the power attack feat for instance. If you lose the strength required to use it, via strength damage or losing your belt of giant strength, then you still have the feat, you just can't use it anymore.

Note that this means Ray of Enfeeblement should be fired off against any approaching Blackguard, which, IMHO, is dumb.

Game On,
fbmf

[Absentminded_Wizard]

So now the question is, does the inclusion of the old rule in CW mean that (officially) the old rule applies to CW PrCs but not to other 3.5 PrCs? After all, core rules override supplements when the core rules explicitly state something contradicted by a supplement, but what happens when the core rules say nothing about the issue?

[Josh_Kablack]

There is a similar piece of text on page 17 of Complete Arcane.

There is not a similar piece of text in the 3.5 DMG or to my knowledge in the 3.5 SRD.

Thus we can conclude one of two things:

1. The rule was accidentally omitted from core 3.5 rules and the text in the Complete Books is meant to be errata correcting that.

2. The rule was purposefully omitted from core 3.5 and only applies if you are using books which mention it.

take your pick.

Personally I have some pretty big issues with either the 'You lose the requirements, you lose PrC abilities" approach (which can result in people who used ranger combat styles to qualify for a PrC losing PrC abilities when the put on medium armor, and arguably in blackguards losing fiendish servant if they take Str damage) or the "Forget about requirements after you take level 1 approach" (which results in a scroll of Shapechange getting you into all sorts of crazy PrCs all by itself).

[dbb]

1122898232[/unixtime]]There is a similar piece of text on page 17 of Complete Arcane.

Josh is correct, though I plead the mitigating factor that there is in fact no such text in Complete Divine (which I checked, although I did not check Arcane). I don't own Complete Adventurer, so someone else will need to check ... not that it really matters, as there's enough for either side to argue their preferred position 'til they're blue in the face. I don't suppose the question has ever been addressed by the FAQ or (hah!) the Sage?

In general I agree with fbmf and Josh that the "lose requirements, lose abilities" clause has some really dumb side effects, and unfortunately these side effects are visible even with core and almost-core material (e.g., Complete Whatever). The other way round also has some very wacky results, but they are unbalanced mainly when they are viewed in conjunction with other, already unbalanced material -- Beholder Mage is not a prestige class that's balanced for PCs to take, whether you make them polymorph into a Beholder before they get their powers running or not.

You can still get some problems -- players Shapechanging into things that have worthless prerequisite feats like Endurance or Toughness springs to mind -- but then I don't much like the notion of taking worthless feats as the price of a PrC anyway, and besides, if your PCs get hold of Shapechange, their using it to qualify for Templar is really the least of your worries.

Bottom line, I'd much rather restrict the more unbalanced classes from player use than worry about the bookkeeping nightmare that results from adopting the CW/CA rule in any heavily-prestige-classed game. Your individual mileage can and will vary, of course.

--d.

[Username17]

The official errata for the DMG is out though, so if the text in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane is meant to be errata, it is a stealth attempt to go behind the backs of the official errata crew. Heck, the DMG also ommits the rule that prestige classes don't count against you for multiclassing XP penalties - but that has been errataed. So the official errata for that paragraph has been written and it doesn't say a damned thing about losing prereqs screwing your PrCs. Of course, the errata for CW and CA are out as well, and they don't say burp about it.

Really what's going on is that the rules for prestige classes were changed in 3.5. But, this was done without a general meeting and without an adoption of a plan. As such, many supplements made from cut and paste work from 3e books continue to have the 3e rules cut and pasted into them. Furthermore, many rules are written as if the 3rd edition rules were still legit - like that thing from Races of Humans that lets you continue being a half elf for the purposes of your PrC that you already have. Meanwhile, other rules are written from the perspective of the new rules presented in the DMG. The Ur Priest negates his own PrC requirements at first level, and in Races of Dragons there is a prestige class which specifies that you lose the powers if you lose the friendship of a dragon while the friendship itself is a prerequisite of the class.

So the real answer is that it's a complete fubar because the authors don't talk to each other and the editors keep getting told contradictory stuff about what the rules actually are.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1122878768[/unixtime]]

Note that this means Ray of Enfeeblement should be fired off against any approaching Blackguard, which, IMHO, is dumb.

Yeah, the rule leads to some really stupid consequences sometimes.

[RandomCasualty]

1122918010[/unixtime]]The official errata for the DMG is out though, so if the text in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane is meant to be errata, it is a stealth attempt to go behind the backs of the official errata crew. Heck, the DMG also ommits the rule that prestige classes don't count against you for multiclassing XP penalties - but that has been errataed. So the official errata for that paragraph has been written and it doesn't say a damned thing about losing prereqs screwing your PrCs. Of course, the errata for CW and CA are out as well, and they don't say burp about it.

Actually a strong case could be made that the restrictions apply only to PrCs from books which state that rule. That is the DMG PrCs don't lose their abilities when they lose the prereqs, where the complete warrior classes do.

Of course, this actually assumes people really care about running an official game, which for the most part is pointless.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

Yeah, I basically brought up the whole question to point out how much fun this situation would be for those poor DMs who want to run a by-the-book, "official" game.

[RandomCasualty]

1123043469[/unixtime]]Yeah, I basically brought up the whole question to point out how much fun this situation would be for those poor DMs who want to run a by-the-book, "official" game.

For the most part this rule isn't one that causes you too much trouble. The only real drawback it has is the "ray of enfeeblement" against blackguards tactic and similar stuff.

[User3]

For the most part this rule isn't one that causes you too much trouble. The only real drawback it has is the "ray of enfeeblement" against blackguards tactic and similar stuff.

Well, when you lose the preqs to a feat, you don't actually lose the feat. You just lose the use of the feat. It is still one of the feats you chose and you do not erase it from your character sheet (like a lost level).

So casting a Str ability damage spell would not cause you to lose the Power Attack feat and the prereqs for Blackguard.

---------------------

The prereq text is below.

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.

I'd say that the "lose the prereqs to a class, lose the abilities" interpretation would make it very hard lose class abilities during the course of a game.

Classes which grant abilities or conditions that mess with its own prereqs are notable exceptions to the rule. They must obviously be exceptions or else the game breaks apart.

However, that seems unnecessary since the SRD uses this text for PrCs:

Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.

Since this is the only PrC text in the SRD, and there is no errata or FAQ ruling to contradict it, one can make the argument that this is the "definitive and final" ruling on PrC rules, which means that PAOing into a Dwarf to become a Dwarven Defender for a level and then going back to being a Elf after the first level is completely kosher.

[RandomCasualty]

1123046092[/unixtime]]
Since this is the only PrC text in the SRD, and there is no errata or FAQ ruling to contradict it, one can make the argument that this is the "definitive and final" ruling on PrC rules, which means that PAOing into a Dwarf to become a Dwarven Defender for a level and then going back to being a Elf after the first level is completely kosher.

Yeah for a dwarven defender, because that's a DMG PrC. But if you were using a CW PrC, it has to abide by the PrC rules in CW.

[User3]

Yeah for a dwarven defender, because that's a DMG PrC. But if you were using a CW PrC, it has to abide by the PrC rules in CW.

I'm OK with that. There isn't a single PrC in Complete Warrior that I give a damn about.

Its good for me that the rules text was not repeated in other Complete books.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

1123044662[/unixtime]]

1123043469[/unixtime]]Yeah, I basically brought up the whole question to point out how much fun this situation would be for those poor DMs who want to run a by-the-book, "official" game.

For the most part this rule isn't one that causes you too much trouble. The only real drawback it has is the "ray of enfeeblement" against blackguards tactic and similar stuff.

I was talking more about the difficulty of figuring out exactly what the official rule is.

[fbmf]

K,

Doesn't that mean that you can't "use the feat" to qualify for a PrC?

Game On,
fbmf

[User3]

1123081684[/unixtime]]K,

Doesn't that mean that you can't "use the feat" to qualify for a PrC?

Game On,
fbmf

When you qualify for a PrC you aren't "using" the feat. You don't have to break anyone's weapon to be a Blackguard.

However, if this line of thought was extended, it would apply to other feats as well. Which has some pleasent consequences.

Of course, IIRC the 3.0 text was that you actualy "lost" the feat, not just the ability to "use" it.

[User3]

Yea, what that guy above said.

The real mindfvcker is that the text in the Complete Warrior reads:

"If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class."

The funny thing is that you still have those abilties, but they can never be used again. No "returning" clause exists. This is an If/Then clause, not a While/Then clause that would allow the "benefit" of abilities to return if you regained your PrCs prereqs..
.
Additionally, you can take PrCs that require these non-functional abilities.

Hilarious, right?

[Crissa]

Didn't the 3.0 errata say that when you couldn't use a feat or ability, it couldn't be used for a pre-requisite?

Either way, what's wrong with being polymorphed into a dwarf to learn Dwarven ways?

-Crissa

[RandomCasualty]

I don't even think being polymorphed counts for a racial requirement. I've looked through polymorph and nowhere do I see that it actually changes your race. Nowhere is the word even mentioned, except under the disguise part of alter self where it disguises you as an average member of the race you become. Polymorph apparently doesn't remove racial modifiers (like reincarnate does) and mentions nothing about the actual race changing anywhere. As far as I can tell, even though your creature type may change, your race for all purposes is still whatever it was originally.

So to actually learn another race's schtick you've got to be reincarnated.

[dbb]

Polymorphing into a Dwarf to gain access to Dwarven Defender (for example) doesn't particularly bother me conceptually -- but then I'd generally let people take Dwarven Defender anyway, even if they weren't Dwarves. I can't think, offhand, of any class that I'd let a PC take at all that I wouldn't just let them take even if they were the "wrong" race.

Racial requirements for PrCs are a dumb idea in the first place, so what would be the point of flying off the handle over the idea that there might be a way to bypass them?

--d.

[Username17]

In 3rd edition, Polymorph in no way counts for access to things like Dwarven Defender. In 3.5, you are no longer a Humanoid [Human] and are now a Humanoid [Dwarf], [Augmented Human].

The Augmented Subtype has never been explained, and it is entirely possible that you still qualify for Human requiring crap at that point. But it is unambiguous that you qualify for things that require you to be a Dwarf, because "Dwarf" has been put into your subtype line.

Of course, the core rules don't actually mention what a human's subtype line looks like in the first place - you have to read Races of Destiny to have that explained.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1123260242[/unixtime]]
The Augmented Subtype has never been explained, and it is entirely possible that you still qualify for Human requiring crap at that point. But it is unambiguous that you qualify for things that require you to be a Dwarf, because "Dwarf" has been put into your subtype line.

Actually I see a lot of ambiguity there. A creature type/subtype and a race are two different things. A race brings with it LA, possible racial hit dice, and racial ability modifiers, None of which are actually gained via polymorph. It is also a separate thing you write down on your character sheet.

Keep in mind that polymorph never causes you to lose or change your race. Turning into a human does not grant you a bonus feat, nor does turning into a beholder from a human cause you to lose your bonus feat.

About the only effects that I can see that directly change or affect true race are the elven blood and orc blood that the half elf and half orc possess. But since these are not Ex or Su, there's no way to actually get those benefits via polymorph, nor does polymorph actually change the race line of your character sheet. As far as I can tell, the only spell which specifically changes your race is reincarnate.

Nowhere have I seen that having a subtype of human is the same as having a race of human. In fact, until races of destiny even came out, humans didn't even have a subtype. And even using the subtypes as a justification still places stuff like the beholder mage exploit in the impossible catagory since a beholder doens't have a unique subtype. Still though, from how I read it, polymorph doesn't work for anything as far as racial qualification.

For the same reason you don't gain the LA or racial hit dice of what you polymorph into, you also don't gain the ability to enter their race specific classes.

[User3]

1123263832[/unixtime]]
Nowhere have I seen that having a subtype of human is the same as having a race of human.

So, what, you think that racial subtypes are just a silly little word written in your stat block with no in-game effect whatsoever?