The Gaming Den

Linkee.

Looks like an EnWorld poster got the PHBII earlier than everybody else.

Out of the gate, the big whine-n'-moan session seems to be concerning the new Knight core class. Which according to Mike Mearls, is the penultimate stay-at-home, hold-your-ground tank. Who unfortunately, has to run away like a sissy at the first sign of even a drop of poison.

I won't pass too much judgement at the Table of Contents until I see the hard ink. But there does seem to be a lot of hybridization going on ... along with the obligatory attempt to further confuse the masses with even more Polymorph "Fix-It-Up" mechanics. Heaven help us.

The new poly mechanics are all I'm reallycurious to see that comes out of the PHB2.

More classes and spells? bleh... like we don't have enough already.

Book at [unixtime wrote:1146369081[/unixtime]] Out of the gate, the big whine-n'-moan session seems to be concerning the new Knight core class. Which according to Mike Mearls, is the penultimate stay-at-home, hold-your-ground tank. Who unfortunately, has to run away like a sissy at the first sign of even a drop of poison.

In which my immediate response is, "So what?" I'd rather have high Willpower over Fortitude any day of the week. Basically, IMHO, it's the diffence between being the main tank that dies from poision versus being the main tank that slaughters the rest of the party under mind control. Thus, without seeing the rest of the class which may change my opinion, but yeah for now the Knight class is giving me a serious woody. Yeah, it would be nice to have d12 hit dice, good fort, and good will, but it would also be nice to win the gold in the decathalon during the 1976 Olympics as well.

Holy shit. I just couldn't take the whining. Some classes have a bad save, get the fvck over it already!

Holy crap, I couldn't even tell if there was useful information in that thread. People picking nits over whether a class had a good Fort save actually made my eyes cross with rage.

D&D has a serious mad-on for making Fighters suck ass. If they make a Fighter who doesn't suck, then it will have been time well spent regardless of whether it has a good Fort save. If they make another Swashbuckler, it won't even matter. Until someone whose mathematical analysis skills I trust gets a chance to read the whole class, I'm witholding judgement.

But 2 skill points a level and no spells doesn't fill me with hope.

-Username17

Yeh, it would have been nice if the class had at least 3 skill point. That way, I could max out Spot, Listen, and Ride. The way it is looking, I'm probably going to be playing human Knights just to get the extra skill point. But I also will reserve judgement until I see the book myself.

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1146388650[/unixtime]]Holy shit. I just couldn't take the whining. Some classes have a bad save, get the fvck over it already!

And in the same thread, they were dissin' WotC for its signal-to-noise ratio.

The really weird thing is that they're whining about a fighting class not getting a good Fort save. They're going to jack up their Constitution as high as they can anyway, which will give them a big fat Fort save bonus -- whereas they'll normally avoid any kind of Wisdom increase like the plague. I think I'd rather have the Will high progression.

I'm expecting a lot of Dwarven Knights, myself.

--d.

People who play optimized non-spellcaster combatants hardly ever play mono-classed builds. So I'm looking forward to seeing if the Knight class (and the others) has optimized departure points - or if the designers actually made a class that compels you to want to stay in it for the duration.

If the Knight is like its Barb, Pally, Swash, & Fighter brethren, you won't be playing it straight classed anyway. You'll want Fighter-2 for the 2 feats. Or Paladin-4 for the CHA-to-Saves and turning to fuel Divine Might. Etc.

So in a sense, the jaded min-maxer in me actually *wants* to see a frontloaded Knight that I can bale out of in 4 levels.

Although the sensible me wants to see a well-crafted 20 level combatant with some kick-ass capstone abilities.

Let's just say that I agree with the sensible side on the matter. We'll see when the books come out.

Since this book is called PHB 2 that means it is an addition to the existing PHB. Since the exisiting PHB is one of the core books it is critical to the game. That would mean that anything in this book is critical to the game as well. But since we've been playing D&D all this time without it, the new rules in this book are apparently not as crucial. That would mean the book would suck a priori or have a misleading name. I'm thinking the first, especially after reading there will be Polymorph 'fixes' in it.

Also, reading that thread is like having someone defecate into my eyes.

I haven't yet looked into exactly how the DMG-2 is officially designated within the "Core Rules" rules set.

Does anyone know how DMG-2 *and* PHB-2 will be applied into "Core Rules" terminology? Meaning, if you are playing Core Rules only, does that mean just the original 3 ... or now the 3 + 2 books.

If not the latter, both new books should possibly have had more appropriately assigned titles.

If it makes if into the errata, FAQ, or SRD I'll play with it. Unless it's too stupid. If it is too stupid, or doesn't make it in, I'll happily ignore it.

"Core" is basically 'everything in the SRD and everything that isn't in the SRD which you actually need to play (ability scores and experience tables, basically). Plus a few cool monsters.'

And, although it makes me a hypocrite to say it, seeing all that whining in th ENworld thread was pretty awful. And what is more fun than griping about whining?

Looks like the fears about the Knight class were well founded.

Knight Class

Extract from the PHB II. Among it's bad features, we have...

Impeteous Endurance - A 1 on a save is no longer a crit fail. That's all

Here's another ability, one ofhte choices of Knight's Challenge

WotC wrote:As a swift action, you can expend one use of your knight's challenge ability to grant an ally another save against a fear effect. The target gains a bonus on this save equal to your Charisma bonus (if any). If the target succeeds on this save, he gains the benefit for a successful save against the attack or spell. This ability reflects your talent to inspire your allies in the face of a daunting foe.

It's level 8. Remove Fear, anyone?

I could go on, mainly about how th e'tanking' is just AC bonuses to your shield, maxing out at +3, making the terrain ;'diffucilt' and making Tumble DC's higher.

Riight. Good class --;

(Let's not even get into how they cannot attack any enemy flatfooted. or helpless. Or can NEVER get a flanking bonus.)

And yet, it's still way better than the CW Samurai.

Actually, for the role that the class is taking, it does have some nice features. Let's admit it - this class is suppose to be the first line of defense for a party. With its d12 hit points and feats like Bulwark of Defense, Vigilant Defender, and Shield Ally, it will be hard for anyone to get by them. Yeah, I'm not big on the knight's code, but if you violate it you only lose the knight's challenge ability for a day. And though some of the stuff isn't excellent, they do seem to get at least something for almost every level.

It's a two-level dip because it's better than Fighter 4 for Mounted Combat, unless you have the dex to take AoOs.

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1146536756[/unixtime]]It's a two-level dip because it's better than Fighter 4 for Mounted Combat, unless you have the dex to take AoOs.

It sure as hell isn't a three level dip.

balance skill wrote:You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can't move to avoid a blow, and thus lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

Knight class wrote:When you reach 3rd level, an opponent that begins its turn in your threatened area treats all the squares that you threaten as difficult terrain.

Knight's code wrote: A knight never strikes a flat-footed opponent. Instead, you allow your foe to ready himself before attacking.

Uh... your 3rd level class feature is that you are no longer allowed to make melee attacks. So obviously, you wouldn't take that level. Ever.

-Username17

... You don't need to roll Balance in Difficult Terrain, though.

True, you only need to balance if you want to walk on a surface in difficult terrain.

If you're willing to crawl or have the ability to fly, you don't have to make Balance checks.

So Knights are capable of attacking prone opponents or flying enemies with their melee attacks.

---

Interestingly, since characters in difficult terrain can't take 5' steps, a knight with a polearm is extremely effective. At least, if you happen to be going up against prone opponents or fliers. I suggest being a triptastic character. It's a MEA to stand and with no 5' step they can't close with you and still attack. And since you are allowed to attack enemies in your threatened area who are prone (though not if the are standing), it's all nicely synnergistic.

More than a little dumb though.

-Username17

You could always charge. Since the person you charge up to wasn't in your threatened area at the start of his turn (although he is now), he isn't considered to be in difficult terrain. So you can just whack him.

Of course, then you are confronted by the problem that you can't attack him again. I'm thinking you'll want to go with some kind of Spring-Attacking, Greatsword-wielding, Knight/Barbarian/Dervish -- that could be kind of boss, in a really stupid way.

--d.

Can you take a normal attack while on difficult terrain, or are you kinda stuck?

-Crissa

Hm. I must have read soething different, it seems to say.. In any case.. that would actually seem to dovetail nicely with the one abuse Dragon Child had. The Knight's "Only attack" me ability + Sanctuary.

Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1146547963[/unixtime]]Can you take a normal attack while on difficult terrain, or are you kinda stuck?

-Crissa

If you are flat footed, you can't attack unless you have Combat Reflexes.

If you are in difficult terrain, you are flat footed unless...

• 
  
• You are prone.
  
• You are flying.
  
• You have 5 or more actual ranks in the Blance skill.
  

Of course, the problem here is that Andy rewrote Balance in 3.5 to make people "flat footed" while balancing instead of merely "denied their dex bonus", a much more serious condition with much farther reaching stupid. One of the 3.5 changes that noone will ever understand.

---

On further inspection:

Noone cares about level 6 of Knight, because that power is crap. All the later levels are uninteresting at the relevent charcater levels, so noone would ever take more than 5 levels of Knight.

Knights can dump every single stat except Strength and Intelligence.

Knight Challenges are so dumb that savvy knights might actually leave them unspent in order to violate their code a number of times each day.

Daunting Challenge is a fear effect with no listed duration. I hate it when people do that.

Armor Mastery (Medium) is all you will ever need, because Heavy Armor can rather easily be made into Medium Armor.

-Username17

You know, that whole "no flanking bonus" thing just doesn't make any sense. The idea behind flanking is that being surrounded makes the defender have to split his attention to evade blows. How exactly can you just choose *not* to do that? It might work the other way(people don't get flanking bonuses with the Knight), but the Knight not getting the bonus is just implausible.

Actually, thought of in terms of an 'honorable' combatant (anyone remember trying to get through Bushido Blade without dishonorably striking an opponent?), the Knight simply refuses to attack his opponent when the opponent is paying more attention to the other flanker than he is the Knight.

The other flanker obviously doesn't have to abide by that restriction.