Weakest. PrCs. EVAR.

[Lago_AM3P]

I'm gonna throw some down. I'll be happy to explain them more on request, but you guys probably already know what I'm talking about.

From each category:

Sword and Fist: Red Avenger
Tome and Blood: Toss-up between Blood Magus, Uneratta'd Bladesinger, Dragon Disciple, Spellsword, etc.
Defenders of the Faith: Hunter of the Dead, Warpriest
Song and Silence: Everything but the Virtuoso.
Complete Warrior: Tattoo Monk, Drunken Master

C'mon, folks, let's get this ball of hate rolling.

[User3]

I nominate the blade of heroineus from Complete Divine.

[fbmf]

What did the errata change about the blade singer?

Game On,
fbmf

[Lago_AM3P]

Do you have the original copy of the bladesinger in Tome and Blood?

In the web enhancement on the WotC site, the bladesinger, while still a big pile of suck, is at least good enough that it isn't in the same category as the rest of the turkeys mentioned.

However, thanks to Andy Collin's stupid-ass policy of 'offhandedly nerf things by disguising it as an update', we're stuck with the Complete Warrior version. Which is a big ol' butterball turkey.

[fbmf]

Gotcha. Thanks.

Game On,
fbmf

[Username17]

3.5 DMG: Arcane Archer, Duelist, Dragon Disciple.

Just thinking about those classes makes my balls clench.

-Username17

[rapanui]

Wasn't there a PrC that was bout never touching magic or magical items? I think it was called the Forsaker, and if I recall correctly it was absolutely Craptastic.

[User3]

1086845516[/unixtime]]
In the web enhancement on the WotC site, the bladesinger, while still a big pile of suck, is at least good enough that it isn't in the same category as the rest of the turkeys mentioned.

The Web enhanced+errata'ed/Races of Faerun Bladesinger is a thing of beauty if you multiclass it right.

The CW Bladesinger definately belongs in the suck pile. And let me add Nature's warrior (CW) and the Un-expanded Psi handbook Pyrokineticist.

-Catharz

[Lago_AM3P]

I am not seeing the Bladesinger's awesomeness, even when viewed in a 3.0E context.

Someone help me out here.

[User3]

Assassin/Bladesinger 6/Telflammar shadowlord 4 in a nice 1st round instakill combo (yes, this uses Shadow jump -> Shadow pounce full attack + free Dimension door+death attack -> Shadow pounce + free dimension door -> etc). Kinda like a polearm Dervish but cooler.

Bladesinger 6/Nar demonbinder or Eldritch master makes a mean melee buffer/caster (we're not talking Cleric or Druid here, but better then Blackguard).

You could add even more with the 3.5 Int-synergy stuff, but I suppose you would have to do that in the months before Complete warrior came out.

-Catharz

[User3]

If I a random passer by may add one of my favorite weakest PrCs EVAR (and there are so many, especially in the completes).

Rage Mage (Complete Warrior)

To be one you already need to be a wizard 3/barbarian 3 minumum or some such to satisfy its requirements.

Your primary ability is a spell rage, which is different to a barbarian rage in that it has all barbarian rage disadvantages and none of its advantages, the only benefit is an increase to caster level (which only brings you back to where a straight single class caster would be) and eventually some DC boosts to SOME spells, and minimal access to some very limited free metamagic (which you have to be in lamo spell rage to access).

There's nothing to say you can't spell rage AND rage at the same time, but then you get double fatigue penalties at the end and -4 AC penalty while raging.

And all this love for only HALF your spell progression for 10 levels!! (Assuming you get in at wiz 3/barb 3 and take the full ten levels at 16th level you end up with only 4th level spells and a only half caster level outside of spell rage).

Did I point out you can wear really light armor without arcane penalties? That makes it all better,

Did I also point out you get only one good save and NOT the best BAB. That also must make it all better.

And there are nut bags out there who think all PrCs are overpowered munchkin fun.

[Josh_Kablack]

I'm gonna have to disagree about the non-virtouso PrCs in Song and Silence. I'm not crazy enough to say that they're good, but there are way way way too many contenders for Teh Worzt Evar for those just slightly inferior to core classes pieces of filler like the Thief Acrobat or Temple Raider of Olidammara to even be on the list.

For those I feel really belong on the list of hate:

Forsaker would be at the top of my list, since if the campaign goes past 5th level, you end up playing Crazy Murdock "I ain't getting on no Teleport spell boss" and the party members have to drug you to bring you along on their adventures. This would be alright if you got to be as big and buff as Crazy Murdock, but it ends up costing you hundreds of gold pieces per day to have abilities which just match those of the fighter who didn't renounce his speaw and magic helmet.

And for stuff not mentioned yet:

Everything from the Old and Obsolete Psihandbook also qualifies hardily for includion in Teh Suck.

The Survivor from Savage ECLs is up there. +0/level BAB and that's not a typo. Somehow you are supposed to "survive" with a d6 HD and no ability to hit things or cast magic.

[User3]

1086889690[/unixtime]]
The Survivor from Savage ECLs is up there. +0/level BAB and that's not a typo. Somehow you are supposed to "survive" with a d6 HD and no ability to hit things or cast magic.

Survivor is a great accompanyment to Master of the unseen hand.

[Username17]

The Survivor has gotten significantly better in 3.5, now that the bonus to saves it grants at first level no longer removes all of its other class features.

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

1086909066[/unixtime]]

1086889690[/unixtime]]
The Survivor from Savage ECLs is up there. +0/level BAB and that's not a typo. Somehow you are supposed to "survive" with a d6 HD and no ability to hit things or cast magic.

Survivor is a great accompanyment to Master of the unseen hand.

Oh my, you're serious. Let's run some numbers.

As written now, taking Survivor to 5th level gives the following benefits:

+0 BAB (not a typo either)
F +4 R +4 W +4
+5d6 HP
10+ Skill points to spend on a very oddball skill list
Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
Evasion
Uncanny Dodge (Can't be flanked)
Improved Evasion
DR 5/-


Monk2/Rogue3 provides all of the following
+3 BAB
F+4 R+6 W+4
+2d8+3d6 HP
Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple
Evasion
Flurry of Blows
Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows
Wisdom bonus to AC
8+ Skill Points to spend on the Monk's middle of the road skill list
Sneak Attack +2d6
Evasion (again)
Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
24+ Skill points to spend on one of the best skill lists in the game
Proficiency with light armor, all simple weapons, hand crossbow, rapier, shortbow, shortsword, handaxe, kama, nunchuku, sai, singham, and shuriken.


So the Survivor has DR 5/-, Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge (no flanky) in its favor. Since it needs all the help it can get, let's count the lack of the minor alignment restriction and the global "PrCs ignore XP penalties" rule in it's favor, even though both are easy to get around. We'll also ignore the flavor text month of study requirement to enter.

But the Monk/Rogue has 3 more points of BAB, 2 more average hit points, 2 more points of reflex save, Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, 2 Bonus Feats (Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows, Wisdom bonus to unarmored AC, +2 more dice of Sneak attack, 32 more skill points (most of which are on better list of class skills), Proficiency with light armor, all simple weapons and 10 non-simple weapons.

Does that look even close to fair to you? Oh yeah, the Survivor is back-loaded in that comparison. That is to say that the worthwile abilities come in the later levels of the progression wheras the rogue/monk abilities are spread more evenly.

Maybe it's because it's late and I'm drunk, but I'm just not seeing why you wouldn't want more skill points to spend on Concentration, better saves, more HP, better AC and a higher BAB to combo with your Master of the Unseen Hand.

[Crissa]

That wasn't Murdock, that was Mr T's character, Barberos.

...I didn't just say that off the cuff.

While many PrCs are sucktastic at the end, I think we forgot the Soul Knife for class with no abilities and Shifter for having less shapeshifting than the core class(es) it was based off of...

-Crissa

[Desdan_Mervolam]

(Psst. "B.A. Baracus")

-Desdan

[RandomCasualty]

Yeah, the survivor does suck. Mainly because I always look at it and ask myself "who wants to take this?"

You aren't gaining BaB, so a fighter type gains nothing. The skills rather suck, so a rogue type doesn't want it. ANd you aren't gaining any casting ability so a caster wouldn't take it. It's one of those classes written for nobody.

About all it's good for is cheesing the +2 saves at level 1 if your DM hasn't yet fixed that game system problem.

[The_Hanged_Man]

Complete Divine is full of crap I wouldn't touch. Pretty much, if it has 1/2 spellcasting, you made a mistake picking that PrC.

[Username17]

By the way, any class whose whole thing is that you are a warrior and gain the benefits of some of the spells that a Cleric of your level could be casting on your whole party instead of getting unique stackable bonuses and abilities - those all suck reconstituted phlegm.

So things like the Warrior of Darkness or Platinum Knight are ass clowns of the first order.

Any class which attempts to charge you anything for advancing your Paladin or Ranger caster level is like trying to build a castle out of ennui. Intriguingly, while such classes are always pitiful beyond mortal comprehension when used for their intended purpose, they are often really superb when taken out of context as a straight Cleric (see the Wind Walker guy from Faiths and Pantheons).

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

A lot more fighter-type PrCs should be like the Frenzied Berserker in power level.

I'm dead serious.

[RandomCasualty]

1086997619[/unixtime]]A lot more fighter-type PrCs should be like the Frenzied Berserker in power level.

I'm dead serious.

Uhhh.. no way. Cause then it totally outclasses anyone who doesn't take an uberPrC, and absolute abilities like "immune to hit point damage" are the dumbest thing in the game. It's like, ok a battle between two frenzied berserkers = totally pointless exercise.

Frenzied berserker shouldn't exist... period.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I think fighter Core Classes should be equal to Frenzied BErserker, to be honest.

[Lago_AM3P]

Uhhh.. no way. Cause then it totally outclasses anyone who doesn't take an uberPrC, and absolute abilities like "immune to hit point damage" are the dumbest thing in the game. It's like, ok a battle between two frenzied berserkers = totally pointless exercise.

So? Core primary spellcasters and rogues totally outclass fighters who don't take an uberPrC, and still outclass many fighter-types that do.

While the frenzied berserker is totally lopsided, this is just what fighters need to survive; fighter-types are poorly balanced against THEMSELVES and THE VAST MAJORITY OF MONSTERS PAST CR 10, let alone other classes.

[RandomCasualty]

Then fix the fighter base class. Don't force them to take broken PrCs to accomodate for weak core classes. Because then if they don't happen to be a greatsword weilding barbarian or whatever other archetypes you create for your uber classes, then they get hosed.

PrCs don't need to exist AT ALL for fighters. Feats alone should be able to cover most anything you want to do.

PrCs are simply an excuse to stop work on fixing the fighter and barbarian classes.