The Dragon Disciple

[Brobdingnagian]

So here's the deal. I love dragons. I have an obsession or something. When I first saw the Dragon Disciple class, I thought, "Dude, I am so taking this class."

Then I learned how the game works, and I thought, "Dude, I am so hating this class."

Half-Dragons are a +3 LA. Not that LA is always particularly accurate (and the system in and of itself is flawed), but if I wanted to spend three character levels gaining that template, I think it'd be good. Heck, for a couple other bonuses, I'd put in five. So, I ended up making a Dragon Disciple class with only five levels.

I put this up on the WotC boards some time back, but I got absolutely no responses. I figure here I might get something.

So here it is, the Dragon Disciple fix. Also, just for reference (though it should be obvious), this does not use the skill system fix I placed up earlier.

Dragon Disciple
Insert flavour text here

Prequisites:

Race: Any non-dragon

Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 11 ranks

Spellcasting: Able to cast arcane spells spontaneously.

Special: Choose a dragon variety. Don't let your DM limit you. DM, don't limit the DD. That's just being a dick.


Hit Die: d12

Class Skills: Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Listen, Profession, Search, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot

Skill Points/Level: 4 + INT Mod

BAB: Full Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Good; Will: Good

Level, Benefit

1 Natural armour increase +1, Ability boost (Str +2), Claws and bite
2 Natural armour increase +2, Ability boost (Int +2), Breath weapon (d4), Low-Light Vision, +1 Spellcasting
3 Blindsense 30ft, Ability boost (Str +2), +1 Spellcasting,
4 Natural armour increase +3, Ability boost (Cha +2), Breath weapon (d6), Darkvision +60ft., +1 Spellcasting
5 Blindsense 60ft, Dragon Apotheosis, Wings, +1 Spellcasting

Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Dragon Disciples gain no proficiencies.

Ability Boost (Ex): As a Dragon Disciple gains levels, his ability scores increase. At first level, he gains a +2 bonus to his Strength score. At second level, he gains a +2 bonus to his Intelligence score. At 3rd level, he gains another +2 bonus to his Strength score. At 4th level, he gains a +2 bonus to his Charisma score. These increases are gained as if through level advancement (meaning, bam, you get a bonus, it's always there, happy birthday).

Claws and Bite (Ex): A Dragon Disciple gains claw and bite attacks. Use the damage values presented for a half-dragon or the base creature's, whichever is greater.

Natural Armour Increase (Ex): A Dragon Disciple gets scales, and his armour increases. At 1st, 2nd, and 4th level, a Dragon Disciple's natural armour increases by 1.

Breath Weapon (Su): At 2nd level, a Dragon Disciple get a breath weapon based off his dragon variety. Look it up in the Monster Manual, I'm lazy. A Dragon Disciple must wait five rounds between each use. When first gained, the breath weapon deals 1d4 points of damage per character level of the appropriate energy type. At 4th level, it instead deals 1d6 points of damage per character level of the appropriate energy type. A Reflex save (DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod) halves this damage.

Blindsense (Ex): DMG pg. 185. 30ft range at 3rd level, 60 ft range at 5th. I'm lazy.

Spellcasting: At 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th level, a Dragon Disciple gains spellcasting as if he had gained a level in a previous arcane casting class. He doesn't get any other benefits that class would get, just better spellcasting. Congratulations, you're not totally useless now.

Low-Light Vision (Ex): You gain low-light vision. If you already have low-light vision, you gain superior low-light vision.

Darkvision: You gain 60-foot Darkvision, or your existing Darkvision increases by 60 feet.

Wings (Ex): At 5th level, you get wings. You can fly at your land speed with average manoeuverability.

Dragon Apotheosis: For all intents and purposes, you're a half-dragon at fifth level (except better). Your breath weapon damage increases to 1d8 per character level, your Strength increases (again) by 4, your Constitution increases by 2, your natural armour bonus increases by another 1 (to a total of +4 from this class), and you gain immunity to sleep effects, paralysis effects, and the energy type of your dragon variety. Now stop sucking and kill something.

--------------------------------------------------------------

So there it is. I know it's not worded very well; I'm very tired and would like to go to bed, so it's kinda rough. You'll notice I got rid of that dumb bonus spell thing the DMG one has (seriously, what's up with that?) replacing it with proper spellcasting advancement (albeit not much), and I essentially just condensed the rest of the class. The skill requirement may seem odd (eighth level to qualify), but it seemed about proper for a level thirteen character.

Also, the original class had Escape Artist. I don't know. I just don't.

What do you guys think?

[erik]

I'm at work and only able to give a cursory glance, and maybe some editorial comments. Just one to start with for now (will go over it more closely later).

1175325314[/unixtime]]Though, if you were to take this class as a sorcerer (which is what I'm assuming), you'd only lose out on ninth level spells.

This kind of thinking is very prevalent on the WotC boards, and it's also very wrong. The 20th level build is pretty much never seen, and that isn't where you encounter balance problems. It's at each level the class is taken.

If you aren't getting the good stuff at each and every level, then that level ain't worth taking.

For this class in specific, it isn't just that you only lose out on 9th level spells, it's that you get all your subsequent spell levels later than a primary caster. Basically you're going to become a cohort-level caster.

Now, if this is intended as a fighting class, then having cohort-caster abilities is alright. Heck, leadership is one of the best feats a fighting type can take simply for the cohort caster.

[edit: I guess I did have time to go in greater depth]

Losing 3 caster levels, on top of sorcerer casting means that this guy is never going to be a primary caster.

That said, gaining caster levels is still superior to crappy bonus spells. You might try to clot some of the caster bleed by at least giving them full caster levels for the purposes of calculating caster level when casting spells (but not for spells known/per day)... kind of like practiced spellcaster for free (really every class should give this).

I actually prefer my dragon disciples be bards instead of sorcerers, especially with this class version, since I could easily go 5 bard/5 dragon disciple/x sublime chord, and make up for some lost time.

I'd be tempted to give full BAB since thematically dragons get full BAB, and realistically this class really is more useful to fighters than casters.

[Draco_Argentum]

Like Dragons themselves this is a fighter mage. Why the 3/4 BAB?

Also, why the lamesauce 2 skill points?

Also why the vastly level inappropriate breath weapon. The limited uses per day at least means you can only waste your action a few times per day, thats the only redeeming feature.

Fix those and add a level of spellcasting or two and someone can probably use it in ftr/mage builds in a way that isn't weak.

[RandomCasualty]

Yeah, the breath weapon should really scale by hit dice, not class levels or anything. Otherwise it's going to totally suck. Direct damage abilities are something that just needs to scale, otherwise they're horrible.

[MrWaeseL]

here is Josh's version of the DD. But it's basically having a bunch of spells always-active.

[Username17]

The first thing to remember with any prestige class is that the abilities you are getting are tied not to your class level, but to your character level. That is, a 2nd level Dragon Disciple is a 10th level character as you have written him. So getting the ability to inflict a 2d8 breath weapon is kind of... insulting.

You're a spellcaster. If you do 10d6 (35 points) of energy damage to everyone in an area of effect at 10th level the Rogue pats you on the head. Doing an area of effect 2d8 (9 points) gets a puzzled look from the paladin.

Breath Weapons should never be less than 1d6 per character level.

-Username17

[Catharz]

Just a conceit, but a 'becoming some kind of dragon' PrC should give dragon HD. That means it should be upped 6 skills/level and full BAB.

Because you aren't just applying the Half-dragon template, there's no reason to keep any of it's flaws. As long as you keep all of the original abilities, improvements are perfectly fine.

If you want to have dragon flavor, it should acually be a tank PrC. Dragons don't start out casting spells, so there's little reason that a half-dragon should either. Then again, it might make sense to keep the original requirement (although it's generally bad practice, sucking a bit initially can make for a more balanced power-PrC).

You already know the abilities you have to give out (D means dragon type):
Vision: Low-light and Dark (D).
Movement: Wings (Fly 2xlandspeed if large).
Abilities: Str+8, Con+2, Int+2, Cha+2.
Natural armor: +4.
Natural attacks: 2 claws and a bite.
Breath weapon: 6d8 energy (30' cone or 60' line), 1/day.
Immunities: Sleep (D), Paralysis (D), and an energy.

Once you hand out the dragon type, they need the dragon abilities (of course).

I'd make the requirements BAB+4, ability to speak draconic, and ability to spontaniously cast arcane spells. An added requirement might be 'must find some dragon-related item, gain the aid of a true dragon, or gain the blessing of a dragon god. That would be purely flavor of course.

Code: Select all

[br]              Sorcerer[br]HD  BAB Saves Casting   Special[br]1d12 1  2/2/2    +1     Claws, Str+2, Int+2, low-light vision.[br]2d12 2  3/3/3    +2     Con+2, Nat AC+1, breath 1/day, energy resistance 10.[br]3d12 3  3/3/3    +3     Dragon type, Str+2, Nat AC+2.[br]4d12 4  4/4/4    +4     Str+2, wings, Nat AC+3, Cha+2.[br]5412 5  4/4/4    +5     Str+2, Nat AC+4, Bite, breath 1/hour, energy immunity.

The breath weapon should be, as Frank says, 1d6 per level. I'm thinking of increasing it to 1d8 per level just to match the template (and because it's only 1/combat at most). I put the bite at level 5 because it goes well with the breath weapon 1/hour, and because not everybody playing a dragon disciple will want a dragon head. May might prefer to stick with wings, scales, and claws.

The shortest way to enter the PrC is Hexblade 4, although it's really intended for Barb 1-2/Fighter 2/Sorc 1-2.

Hexblade base, at level 9, you've got a guy with sorcerer spellcasting 5. This is only good for swift combat buffs. He can fly around, which is a level-appropriate ability. He's gotten a huge strength boost, so good I don't know if it's balanced. Great natural armor too. On second thought, maybe this should be a 3/4 BAB PrC.

Taking the opposite tact, an 8th level sorcerer can make the requirements. At level 13, this is so much better than sorcerer that it isn't even funny. The save boost, Con boost, Cha boost, natural AC, and constant flying are all great. The HD and skill increases are nice too. It stacks with polymorph.

Maybe it would be better to drop the first level of spellcasting. The spellcasting of the intended entry is already so far behind that it shouldn't matter much, while loosing a caster level is a significant issue for the straight sorcerer.

Then again, if it was going to go the route of making it a non-spellcasting PrC it might just be better to make it a 3-level 'racial class.' Commoner BAB, poor saves, 6 skills/level, d? HD... It's easier to make a progression for a templated creature than a template.

What I'd like to see is a 'dragon adept' PrC which goes from half-dragon to young adult or something.

[Brobdingnagian]

I increased the Skills/Level to four, I upped the BAB to full, and I changed up the Breath Weapon so it's more appropriate. I added two extra levels of spellcasting. I didn't think it right to bring the skills up to six; it just didn't seem to fit.

I didn't change the prequisites, though, because honestly, I didn't see any need to. I'm really not sure what this class is supposed to do in the first place; it could be a fighter/mage build, or it could be a straight mage build.

When I originally redid this class, I was still kind of new and under the impression that the core Barbarian was a level-appropriate character all the way through. Also, I play a lot of console RPG's, and have a hard time shaking the "I'll get it eventually" philosophy.

Essentially, what this class is supposed to be, from what I can tell, is a straight number boost. I shouldn't have been thinking "Why should it get full BAB, all good saves, and halfway decent skills points?" I should have been thinking, "Why shouldn't it get full BAB, all good saves, and halfway decent skill points?"

Anyway, a straight caster loses one level of casting through this, and they'll have to take more than one level to make it worth while. Full casting is just too much.

Also, the half-dragon template itself is dumb in at least two ways that I can think of. The first being its breath weapon. Once a day and straight damage? Blargh. The way I've got it there, it's entirely dependant on character ability. Also, the flying. Sucks. Why should only Large creatures get them, and why should it be better than medium characters who take DD? I figure it's best to just have it at the same speed as landspeed, average manoeuverability, and not argue about it.

So how does it look now?

[Judging__Eagle]

ugh, you're level formatting sucks and is hard to read. I'm gonna quote, edit and then post here a new, better looking and easier to read level advancement arrangement.

Also, you have Spellcasting +1 twice at lvl 3. Whoops I guess.

Level, Benefit

1 Natural armour increase +1, Ability boost (Str +2), Claws and bite
2 Natural armour increase +2, Ability boost (Int +2), Breath weapon (d4), +1 Spellcasting
3 Blindsense 30ft, Ability boost (Str +2), +1 Spellcasting,
4 Natural armour increase +3, Ability boost (Cha +2), Breath weapon (d6), +1 Spellcasting
5 Blindsense 60ft, Dragon Apotheosis, Wings, +1 Spellcasting


Just quote my post, copy the relevant text and use it to swap out the old layout.

[MrWaeseL]

+1 level for +4cha and some throwaway stuff seems too high.

[User3]

Any PrC that takes away 2 caster levels (remember, you have to enter as a Sorcerer, or worse), is almost never going to be "too good". This would be a pretty good PrC for a melee guy, except Know (Arcana) is tricky to get to 11 ranks in, especially since you are likely favoring Cha over Int. You can do it, but it'll take a big pile of skill points.

There's no real need for limits to the breath weapon. It's either level appropriate (in which case a 1d4 round recharge time is fine) or it is not (in which case you either shouldn't have it, or won't use it). Plus, some random stuff keys off of having a "real" (recharge time measured in rounds) breath weapon, and it's fun to give players access to that.

[Catharz]

1175383012[/unixtime]]Any PrC that takes away 2 caster levels (remember, you have to enter as a Sorcerer, or worse), is almost never going to be "too good".

A casting PrC which takes away two levels of casting will rarely be overpowered, but I think the point of being a guy with Str+8 and three natural weapons isn't casting.

[Draco_Argentum]

Funnily enough the main draw of this class is the impressive sensor suite.

I'd be inclined to put LLV or darkvision at level 2 or 3 to smooth that last level out.

[Brobdingnagian]

So maybe Breath Weapon - all you want, once every five rounds? It'll show up once or twice a combat, and that seems fair. I don't like the whole '1d4' rounds thing... dice can too easily make things happen all the time, especially the d4.

Also, it only takes away one level of casting, which is the first level.

LLV at 2nd and DV at 4th, maybe?

And MrWaeseL, it only gives +2 to Charisma, and that's at fourth level. The boosts at the end are physical (4 Strength, 2 Constitution).

[NineInchNall]

1175389843[/unixtime]]A casting PrC which takes away two levels of casting will rarely be overpowered, but I think the point of being a guy with Str+8 and three natural weapons isn't casting.

You could give Str+8*10^300 and still not be worth it. Damage is poop in d20 D&D.

[Brobdingnagian]

Give me a second to do the math...

8*10 is... 80... to the power of 300... is...

My computer's scientific calculator just came up with an error. Yeah, it wouldn't be worth it, because nobody would bother to figure out just how much damage it really is.

So, question stands. Should I spread out LLV and DV to second and fourth?

[the_taken]

Yes

[User3]

Your Str mod (assuming you started with a 10) would be a mere 4000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

[Endovior]

(Better notation for the above: a Str modifier of +4.2263562490853219708187182793321e+570)

You do realize that with that much strength, magic curls up in the corner and weeps, right? Because with that much strength, you do enough damage to literally destroy the earth with a single punch (assuming you wear gauntlets or are a Monk or something, so you can do lethal damage ). In fact, you could probably destroy the entire inhabited area of most planes with a punch like that.

Now, strength is clearly not quite as valuable as a bonus to a caster's casting stat, even if it is a Gish-build caster that likes to wade into melee. However, it is just as clearly not worthless; strength comes in handy in a lot of places; and if you're actually making a Gish, you'll probably appreciate them.

[MrWaeseL]

8*10^300 is an 8 with 300 zeroes, not 80 raised to the 300th power. This is highschool math guys

[Judging__Eagle]

1175602278[/unixtime]]8*10^300 is an 8 with 300 zeroes, not 80 raised to the 300th power. This is highschool math guys

Oh Mr. WaeseL.

:roundnround::roundnround:

[Brobdingnagian]

Okay, switched LLV and DV.

[User3]

1175602278[/unixtime]]8*10^300 is an 8 with 300 zeroes, not 80 raised to the 300th power. This is highschool math guys

That's why the modifier is a four followed by 300 zeroes.

[MrWaeseL]

1175620001[/unixtime]]

1175602278[/unixtime]]8*10^300 is an 8 with 300 zeroes, not 80 raised to the 300th power. This is highschool math guys

That's why the modifier is a four followed by 300 zeroes.

That's not what Endovior said or Brobdingnagian alluded to!

[NineInchNall]

1175589707[/unixtime]]You do realize that with that much strength, magic curls up in the corner and weeps, right? Because with that much strength, you do enough damage to literally destroy the earth with a single punch (assuming you wear gauntlets or are a Monk or something, so you can do lethal damage ). In fact, you could probably destroy the entire inhabited area of most planes with a punch like that.

Not really. "Eat forcecage, strength boy!"