IMHO: I don't know how to make the Gargoyle PC work w/out su
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:59 pm
In this thread (Power Level using Pies) we were talking about power progression and how to explain it in a relatively easy manner.
So, the 4 HD Gargoyle, with one added HD to 'be' CR 5 with PC gear and 1 lvl of a martial class is unlike the RoW write-up of the minotaur.
The gargoyle has some DR (10/Magic or Monsters don't have it); some pretty decent stat mods (big con boost, smaller dex and str boosts, int and cha penalties), some natural attacks, 5 levels of two good saves (and with it's high con, it's low base fort save is mitigated a pile), but it's also got flying.
The problem is that while he's relatively powerful when he flies up and falls onto things and he's got the DR to soak hits, I'm not too sure what to do to keep the character from going all sideways since he'll be level 5 gargoyle, level 1 or 2 PC class; and while the other PCs are unlocking their "oh shit" level 6 and 7 abilities, he's only tapping into his 1st lvl ones.
I know that he's got stuff that most PCs won't normally have, like combat flying and very noticable DR to start, but after seriously trying the Knight class (and giving him designate opponent damage equal to his HD) and then the Samurai class, trying out a bunch of existing feats and a couple of new feats; it all still seems lacklustre.
Me, Brobdingagian and the player talked about simply advancing the Gargoyle's Hit Dice in some sort of "Gargoyle" Paragon class or something, but it would need some wierd stuff.
As it stands the current ideas that I have are as follows:
1. Strip the Gargoyle race more, give it's abilities out (mostly flying, maybe DR) as levels progress. Flying would be spread out the way the Raptorian race has flying spread out so that only at level 10 you get your full flying (1st lvl gliding downwards; 5th limited flight 1 round per point of con mod per hour; 10th lvl whatever you would normally get).
2. Remove more HD or simply give some more class special abilities (count as a 3rd lvl Knight for special Knight class abilites, and as a 5th lvl knight for designate opponent damage; but only if you take at least one knight level).
3. Create a Gargoyle PrC-ish thing and don't use class levels? The class would be one that can be used by good or evil Gargoyles, something like this:
Basilica Gaurdian (or Fiendish Gatekeeper)
Pre-Reqs
Special: Must be any Good (or any Evil for the fiendish abilities isntead)
Special: Must be a Gargoyle
Special: Must decide to serve Celestials (or Fiends)
Skills: Same as the Gargoyle, plus: Knowledge (Religion)
Skill Points per level: 4 + Int Mod
BaB: Full (1/1)
Saves Fort: Good; Reflex: Good; Will: Good
Celestial-Touched: Count as a Celestial when meeting with outsiders (two steps better when meeting with outsiders of good alignments for diplomacy purposes, two steps worse if meeting with outsiders of the evil alignment)
Damage Reduction: Gain DR 10/Silver if Lawful or 10/Steel if Chaotic; gain DR 15/Silver or Steel if Neutral*
[*:yes, it should be Stone or Wood for Neutral but whatever]
Celestial Creature: Gain the Celestial Creature template
Damage Reduction: Gain DR 10/Chaotic if Lawful or 10/Lawful if Chaotic; gain DR 15/Chaotic or Lawful if Neutral
Really, I don't know what a guardian of Celestial's basilica's would or should have as powers; it should be noted that you're level 5 when you enter so the 1st power is for a 6th lvl pc.
Anyway, ideas and comments would be appreciated.
I think that this race is harder to turn into a PC than, say a Minotaur is b/c of flying really.
So, the 4 HD Gargoyle, with one added HD to 'be' CR 5 with PC gear and 1 lvl of a martial class is unlike the RoW write-up of the minotaur.
The gargoyle has some DR (10/Magic or Monsters don't have it); some pretty decent stat mods (big con boost, smaller dex and str boosts, int and cha penalties), some natural attacks, 5 levels of two good saves (and with it's high con, it's low base fort save is mitigated a pile), but it's also got flying.
The problem is that while he's relatively powerful when he flies up and falls onto things and he's got the DR to soak hits, I'm not too sure what to do to keep the character from going all sideways since he'll be level 5 gargoyle, level 1 or 2 PC class; and while the other PCs are unlocking their "oh shit" level 6 and 7 abilities, he's only tapping into his 1st lvl ones.
I know that he's got stuff that most PCs won't normally have, like combat flying and very noticable DR to start, but after seriously trying the Knight class (and giving him designate opponent damage equal to his HD) and then the Samurai class, trying out a bunch of existing feats and a couple of new feats; it all still seems lacklustre.
Me, Brobdingagian and the player talked about simply advancing the Gargoyle's Hit Dice in some sort of "Gargoyle" Paragon class or something, but it would need some wierd stuff.
As it stands the current ideas that I have are as follows:
1. Strip the Gargoyle race more, give it's abilities out (mostly flying, maybe DR) as levels progress. Flying would be spread out the way the Raptorian race has flying spread out so that only at level 10 you get your full flying (1st lvl gliding downwards; 5th limited flight 1 round per point of con mod per hour; 10th lvl whatever you would normally get).
2. Remove more HD or simply give some more class special abilities (count as a 3rd lvl Knight for special Knight class abilites, and as a 5th lvl knight for designate opponent damage; but only if you take at least one knight level).
3. Create a Gargoyle PrC-ish thing and don't use class levels? The class would be one that can be used by good or evil Gargoyles, something like this:
Basilica Gaurdian (or Fiendish Gatekeeper)
Pre-Reqs
Special: Must be any Good (or any Evil for the fiendish abilities isntead)
Special: Must be a Gargoyle
Special: Must decide to serve Celestials (or Fiends)
Skills: Same as the Gargoyle, plus: Knowledge (Religion)
Skill Points per level: 4 + Int Mod
BaB: Full (1/1)
Saves Fort: Good; Reflex: Good; Will: Good
- Gain Meteoric Strike as a bonus feat; Celestial-Touched
- Damage Reduction (Silver or Steel)
-
- Celestial Creature
-
- Damage Reduction (Lawful or Chaotic)
-
-
-
-
Celestial-Touched: Count as a Celestial when meeting with outsiders (two steps better when meeting with outsiders of good alignments for diplomacy purposes, two steps worse if meeting with outsiders of the evil alignment)
Damage Reduction: Gain DR 10/Silver if Lawful or 10/Steel if Chaotic; gain DR 15/Silver or Steel if Neutral*
[*:yes, it should be Stone or Wood for Neutral but whatever]
Celestial Creature: Gain the Celestial Creature template
Damage Reduction: Gain DR 10/Chaotic if Lawful or 10/Lawful if Chaotic; gain DR 15/Chaotic or Lawful if Neutral
Really, I don't know what a guardian of Celestial's basilica's would or should have as powers; it should be noted that you're level 5 when you enter so the 1st power is for a 6th lvl pc.
Anyway, ideas and comments would be appreciated.
I think that this race is harder to turn into a PC than, say a Minotaur is b/c of flying really.