The Gaming Den

It can't do... this: the Dreamland Chronicles.

Seriously, I can't think of a story out of any mythology that can be used to justify D&D and it's reliance on "the group" except for the Fellowship of the Ring from LoTR.

Then again, I have a 3-7 person playing group.


Oh wells.

D&D's reliance on a group is because more than two people play the game.

humans are social creatures. end.

that's why Gwyldyvvyr'k the great barbarian of the north rolls with a posse. He needs someone to see how awesome he is.

Actually, if you play online (by post, at least), you can get some individual quest type stuff going, or split parties, or whatever, because you're already conceeding that people will not be in the same place at the same time. It's more work for the DM, but it can be done.

But yeah, if you have a group of people sitting around a table, the game *has to* involve that whole group. That's a feature, not a bug.

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1178327853[/unixtime]]
Seriously, I can't think of a story out of any mythology

Jason and the Argonauts

The Seven Samurai /The Magnificent Seven/Battle Beyond Space/Seven Against Thebes

Doc Savage and his Fabulous Five (and the modern superhero comic that imitated them)

Lucy Westenra's suitors, Johnathan Harker and Van Helsing

Daniel Boone, David Bowie, Davy Crockett and Col Travis.

D&D's standards are closer to modern fantasy in structure, where you can find all sorts of examples of groups. The Dark Tower series, any number of LotR fantasy rip-offs, Wheel of Time, Ringworld (sci-fi, but still), etc.

As for prior mythological situations of groups of people, Josh mentions a few good ones. There's also King Arthur & his Knights of the Round Table. There's some of the adventures by a couple of the gods (Nordic in particular). I believe there was a time when Odin, Thor, and Loki had their own set of misadventures. In fact, Celtic mythology tends to be a very good example for adventurers, especially on the reliance for singular champions doing all the fights for a kingdom.

Odin(Arcane/Divine caster), Thor(tank with some of the best magic gear ever) and Loki(Bard)

Gilgamesh(Divine Tank) and Enkili(Druid)

Rama's four physical incarnations

Jesus and his apostles(exalted vow of poverty/vow of peace characters with ranks in "Stand in the way of the guy with the sword")

Lucifer(spellsword), Belial(Tank), Leviatian(Theurge) and Satan(warlock)

Isis(Cleric), Horus(Barbarian), Thoth(Wiz) and Nephtys(Rogue)

Mickey(Bard), Donald(berserker), Goofy(n00b player), Pluto(pet), and Stitch(the character who actually fvcking does anything... also the random evil guy)

and going with that... Jumba(Wiz), Kleakley(Bard), Lilo(I have no idea... hook catcher, I guess) and Stitch(again, the one who actuallu fvcking does anything)

there are others... hercules adventured with a few other guys I think...

oh and the odyssey and the Aeneid...

The Warriors Three. Cooper's Leatherstocking Tales. The Avengers (and everything after). The Justice League (ad everything after). Stormwatch (and everything after). Lone Ranger and Tonto. The Shadow and his minions. Indiana Jones and his assorted sidekicks (most strikingly in …and the Last Crusade).

But, really, this is just an excuse for this digression.
_____

Josh wrote:Daniel Boone, David Bowie, Davy Crockett and Col. Travis.

What?

Daniel Boone: Daniel Boone was a man, / Yes, a big man! / He was brave, he was fearless / And as tough as a mighty oak tree!

Davy Crockett: Raised in the woods so's he knew every tree, / Killed him a bear when he was only three. / Davy, Davy Crockett / King of the Wild Frontier.

David Bowie: Ziggy played guitar, jamming good with Weird and Gilly / And The Spiders From Mars / He played it left hand / But made it too far /Became the special man, then we were Ziggy's band.

Col. Travis: Actually, I'm in charge. And, you! What's with the hair, son? Somethin' scare you?

It's a rference to This Group.
Not to the David Bowie who plays Tesla.

Anyway, from Robin Hood's adventurous companions to the Three Musketeers, there has always been an appettite for the ass whupping lynch mob of heroes. There has also been a place for the lone adventurer. These are both stories that oft get told, and you'll note that in some cases the characters either solo or party depending upon what kind of story is being told.

There are stories about just Friar Tuck and stories about just Robin Hood. They are folk heroes who do some bawdy things in the original tales. There are also stories of them working together for the group adventures.

D&D will never tell the tale of epic individual heroics because by definition there are multiple protagonists. If you want to tell the story of a single hero you need to tell it with a single author - just write a story.

-Username17

Jason and the Argonauts is probably the one story that is closest to being as large as my gaming group is.

But most of the argonauts weren't important characters, heck even Hercules 'left' partway through and he had really done not much until he was left behind.



I was looking for really old stuff, the original myths that many current stories aer based on, so the Odessy works, the Aeneid which was the equivalent of ancient roman fanfiction, doesn't (then again, I filed the book of mormon as being holy bible fanfiction).

Odin, Thor's and Loki's adventures are good as well, but they don't represent 5-11 people.

Lucifer(spellsword), Belial(Tank), Leviatian(Theurge) and Satan(warlock)

Where is this from?

The rest I can recognize:

Gilgamesh & Ekindu are from Sumer. Although Gilgamesh did a lot of adventuring after Ekindu died (to find the flower/plant of eternal youth at the bottom of the ocean).

Rama is from Indus-Hindu mythology (are there any examples of groups working to achieve a goal in Indian-Hindu mythology?)


Anyway; other than the Odessy, King Arthur.... bah, those don't really work either.

You can't use those stories as a method to run a D&D game; Arthur and his knights worked more often individually or in pairs than they did in groups.


In any case, I'm just having trouble looking for inspiration in mythology that includes large groups of people that: 1) work together most of the time, 2) Are all equally worth mentioning and 3) have compelling stories.

Seriously, I think it's the fact that a storyteller would have to remember a half-dozen different characters and that's hard.

Most stories have one character, with one or many supporting characters and/or villans.

Meaning that there is no real template or archetype in mythology to explain the half-dozen to a dozen adventurers that all can kick equal amounts of ass and work as a team.

Bah.







Thanks Frank, the Musketeers and Robin Hood and his band of merry men are some good examples or potentially large groups of 'heroes'.


I guess the best analogy for the group that I'm running now is the method that the JLA cartoon series was described in the "What D&D can learn from the Teen Titans" thread.

Each player has their 'main' character; as well as alt. characters.

No one character needs to be in any one adventure, but it's better if there are more PCs.

The only thing that's inequal in distribution is wealth. You get to keep what you adventure to earn, so you have to play your PC to get them to earn in-game wealth.

Levels are done when I feel that the group as a whole is ready to level. When they level they have enough xp for that level and are 1/2 way to the next level.

Magic Item crafters can craft with the pool of 1/2 the XP to their next level and they can assume that any player that they craft for can donate the xp needed from their own pool.

No real example? The Mahabharata is one, 5 brothers adventuring together. Also, there was writing with Arthur going forth in a 7-man group (Mallory). Don't forget Christ and his disciples, which you didn't mention.

Oh, and for the D&D mythos, we have the D&D cartoon series; which could be used for inspiration

Also, original mythologies had a slightly different goal in their stories. They tell epic myths, while we play a social game, so of course there's going to be inconsistencies.

And why must you have a specific kind of mythological backing, especially when you disregard what you deem as 'fanfic'?

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1178390268[/unixtime]]Jason and the Argonauts is probably the one story that is closest to being as large as my gaming group is.

But most of the argonauts weren't important characters, heck even Hercules 'left' partway through and he had really done not much until he was left behind.

I don't really think so: Orpheus the bard, Medea the sorceress, and the twins Castor and Pollux are all important and colorful characters. They each have an important role on the quest with Jason, and they appear prominently in other stories apart from the Argonauts.

Ehhh, it sure seems like there's "a group" for the linked webcomic. Yeah Alexander gets most of the screentime, but he definitely adventures with a party.

I've got another one: the 13th Warrior. Sure, it's not ancient mythology, but it's based on it.

Frank says I'm crazy for thinking that the game should support a group with a faerie, centaur, naiad, and sylph as members. He says that tiny or large members break the game, as do flying and insubstantial.

Le sigh. Why can't a game that's based upon storytelling work with differences?

It'd be much harder for a miniatures or computer based game to do this...

-Crissa

clikml at [unixtime wrote:1178396529[/unixtime]]Ehhh, it sure seems like there's "a group" for the linked webcomic. Yeah Alexander gets most of the screentime, but he definitely adventures with a party.

Yeah, seriously. Let's break it down. We have:
the Chosen Hero with a Magic Sword
the Elf Princess who is Arbitrarily Badass, yet Conflicted
the Magical Pixie Fairy who Sparkles
and the Rock Giant who is Very Large, yet Lovable

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable PC party, actually. The IRL stuff could easily just be DM flavor text (and the other characters could easily be getting a whole different set of flavor based on their own backstories).

Alexander is certainly the protagonist of the story, but that just means that we're seeing what his player sees, rather than the 3rd person omnisicient view we'd need to see this as a party of equals.

Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1178431136[/unixtime]]Le sigh. Why can't a game that's based upon storytelling work with differences?

Dungeons and Dragons isn't based on storytelling. It's based on tactics and resource management. You can use it to tell stories, but you can use Parcheesi to tell stories. RPGs occupy the continuum between tabletop wargame and improvisational theater, and D&D cleaves pretty hard to the former.

If you would like to play an RPG that is actually based on storytelling, I'd be happy to recommend some.

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1178394304[/unixtime]]

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1178390268[/unixtime]]Jason and the Argonauts is probably the one story that is closest to being as large as my gaming group is.

But most of the argonauts weren't important characters, heck even Hercules 'left' partway through and he had really done not much until he was left behind.

I don't really think so: Orpheus the bard, Medea the sorceress, and the twins Castor and Pollux are all important and colorful characters. They each have an important role on the quest with Jason, and they appear prominently in other stories apart from the Argonauts.

But it's perfectly unreasonable for there to be adventures of Jason and Jason alone when you have half a dozen real life people playing.


Really, if I want to run D&D, I'm finding that I have to be willing to not rely on mythology as a means to get my thematics, mostly b/c most traditional storytelling and mythology doesn't support the: "half a dozen heroes who all get equal screen time" model that D&D should espouse.

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1178461345[/unixtime]]
But it's perfectly unreasonable for there to be adventures of Jason and Jason alone when you have half a dozen real life people playing.


Really, if I want to run D&D, I'm finding that I have to be willing to not rely on mythology as a means to get my thematics, mostly b/c most traditional storytelling and mythology doesn't support the: "half a dozen heroes who all get equal screen time" model that D&D should espouse.

How about for there to be adventures of Roy who is avenging a blood oath and has hired some random schmucks to help him do so?


In most games of DnD with friends we naturally gravitate towards having a leader in the party, and it isn't the same player every time.

In some cases it's due to the way we brought in new characters at a lower level than the they died at, and the remaining higher level characters had more ties to the current plotline and naturally gravitated towards being in charge of keeping us going forward. Anywho, most every campaign I've played in with friends are often with a leader who has their agenda that is placed ahead of everyone else's (not to the exclusion of everyone else's, just ahead). Not much different from Order of the Stick, I imagine.

Not everybody does get equal screentime. D&D doesn't really support that either. Different characters get different abilities some of which lend themselves towards getting more screentime than others in certain encounter types. Depending upon the spread of encounter types screentime waxes and wanes for certain characters. Some days one character is in the limelight, other days another may steal the show. It's unlikely that there will ever be an equal distribution of screentime overall, or per encounter even.

It is really hard to compare D&D to classic literature. It is easier to write about the "hero" because that is less work in terms of character development. One classic literature feature is the dynamic duo and D&D can really support dynamic duo play. My first major campaign I was the DM for basically involved two rangers named "Death" and "Destruction."

It's not that D&D can't do classic literature and classic tales of fantasy; it's that the classic rules of the genre would be considered "railroading" by most players and totally against the spirit of the game.

You can represent ancient legends and folk tales with D&D, but most of the time it ends up like This. Seriously man, the amount of bawdiness and the level of the humor in the medieval tales is practically medieval.

I'm not even kidding, here's a section from the classic Eustache the Monk:

Eustache spotted the Abbot of Jumièges as he was coming down the road. "Sir Abbot," he said, "stop where you are! What are you carrying? Come now, don't hide it." The Abbot answered: "What's it to you?" At this, Eustache was ready to hit him, but instead replied: "What's it to me, fat-ass? Upon my word, Ill make it my business. Get down, fast, and not another word out of you, or I'll let you have it. You'll be beaten up so badly you won't be worth a hundred pounds." The Abbot thought the man was drunk, and said, more politely this time: "Go away. You won't find what you are looking for here." Eustache responded: "Cut the bullshit and get off your horse fast, or you'll be in for a lot of trouble." The Abbot got down, frightened now. Eustache asked how much money he had with him. "Four marks," said the Abbot, "in truth I only have four marks silver." Eustache searched him immediately and found thirty marks or more. He gave back to the Abbot the four marks he claimed to have. The Abbot became duly furious; for, had he told the truth, he would have got back all his money. The Abbot lost his money only because he told a lie.

And heck, Robin Hood ballads really do read like this:

When Marian did hear the voice of her love,
Her self shee did quickly discover,
And with kisses sweet she did him greet,
Like to a most loyall lover.

Some of them get a bit raunchy for e'en this forum.

-Username17

Now I want to see Gargantua & Pantagruel d20.

Yeah, medieval literature was a lot more unrestricted than most people today would believe.

There are seriously poems that talk about how: "The man with the beautiful wife is always angry; he's cuckholded daily."

And Robin Hood and his 'merrry men' were quite thuggish. Heck, until Friar Tuck joined Robin and his band, the two of them did the medieval equivalent of rapping about how they were going to beat the other's head in.

Then again Robin was outlawed for murder (one of the Sheriff of Nottingham's relations apparently), not poaching the king's deer.

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1178390268[/unixtime]]

Lucifer(spellsword), Belial(Tank), Leviatian(Theurge) and Satan(warlock)

Where is this from?

Inside joke, I'm a satanist, so I figured I'd give a line or two to the 4 crown princes of hell...

virgileso at [unixtime wrote:1178393299[/unixtime]]No real example? The Mahabharata is one, 5 brothers adventuring together. Also, there was writing with Arthur going forth in a 7-man group (Mallory). Don't forget Christ and his disciples, which you didn't mention.

I did, just in a rather irreverent manner...

Prak_Anima wrote:Inside joke, I'm a satanist, so I figured I'd give a line or two to the 4 crown princes of hell...

But what's the source?