Toward a New Version of Polymorph

[User3]

This has been discussed here before, but apparently it deserves further examination, and not surprisingly, as Polymorph remains broke as all heck in the core rules, not to mention Skip's pronouncements.

I do not believe the existing polymorph as "select a form and get a laundry list of stuff from it" paradigm is salvageable. Monsters are not balanced, and they are certainly not balanced against each other, which means that any list of them will have some that are just plain the best, and some that completely suck. There is room in the game for a spell that gives you additional abilities, some of which are possessed by monsters, but not for one that lets you pick out whatever combination you like that already exists in a monster book somewhere.

Similarly, the stat replacement paradigm is also unsalvageable. If you are a weak wizard and you turn into a firbolg -- you should get stronger, because being strong is what firbolgs do -- but you should not get as strong as an 18 strength fighter who turns into a firbolg.

Within that framework, I suggest the following points for Polymorph as a level 4 spell:

- Grants a land speed of 30 feet. Depending on form, may also grant a fly, swim, climb, or burrow speed, but not all of them at once. You can do any of these things and more with a third level spell; allowing a 4th level to do "this and some other stuff" is reasonable.

- Grants moderate stat bonuses, about equal to casting a stat buff spell twice, maybe slightly less. You should get to apply a +4 enhancement bonus to your choice of the three physical stats, and either another +4 or a +2 to a different physical stat, depending on the form you assume. As these are second level spells, allowing a 4th level to do "a third level spell, a second level spell, and some other stuff" seems reasonable.

- Grants a natural attack (use the "Slam" column from table 5-1 in the MM -- this means the best you can hope for is 2d8). This is pretty meaningless unless you have a really awful weapon already.

- If you turn into a very large or very small creature, you are treated as if you had the appropriate size for the purposes of where you can move, and you gain the appropriate Armor Class adjustment, but you do not gain any other features of being that size (additional Strength, Constitution, effective reach, etc.).

- You are effectively disguised as an average whatever-it-is-you-turn-into. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +20 bonus on your Disguise check.

And that's it. The design goals here are threefold:

One is to permit you to assume any shape you feel like.

Second is to ensure that being polymorphed is not a must-have combat benefit. This is why the stat buffs are so comparatively minor -- if you make them +6 or +8 or +10, every fighter everywhere will want to be polymorphed all the time. And while changing into a giant version of yourself is a totally valid character schtick for a fighter -- it is also not the only one, and therefore it cannot be so good that every fighter who doesn't have it will suck.

Third is to make the bonuses and penalties for size-changing more or less cancel each other out. If you get real big, you hit harder (but still not hard enough that the fighter who invested all his mojo in a greatsword will feel left out), in exchange for taking a big AC penalty. Of course, if you don't care about your armor class (if you're a halfling barbarian, say) or your attack (if you're a typical wizard) you can pocket a moderate bonus for being really big or really small, but we are after all dealing with a fourth level spell here, so this is not unreasonable.

If anything, I think this version may be slightly underpowered, although, as a regular wizard player, I'd still want to have it in my spellbook just for the sheer versatility, disguise, and spying capabilities.

Comments and suggestions are welcomed, within the general framework of the thread (i.e., please don't tell me "you need to let players replace their stats" or "you need to let players pick whatever stat bonuses or movement rates they can find on a monster", as I am interested in doing neither of these).

--d.

[Username17]

There's a problem with this methodology, namely that neither of the mechanics of "increasing power by spell level" nor the mechanics of "collecting bonuses" are actually balanced. The fact that a 4th level spell is better than a 2nd level spell when cast by a 7th level character is the reason that multicasters will never ever be any good. The fact that you must collect a bunch of stupid bonuses and add them together if you want to get an actual level-appropriate total bonuses is the reason that that helmet that gives you an Insight bonus to AC is "broken".

So yeah, if you rip open the engine of the game and try to reassemble it to get polymorph, you see the real insides of the game - and you can see that the flawed premises are so prevalent that the only reason it runs at all is duct tape and attached hamster wheels.

---

What is Polymorph? Polymorph is several things:

1. A disguise spell. This is a "story power" and exists pretty much independently of other things. It hardly needs game mechanics at all, and is "balanced" as long as the player has to give up some other kind of non-combat screen time to get it.

2. A mobility spell. There are two aspects to this: in its first aspect it is a non-combat mobility spell. It allows you to tunnel into the secret base, or fly over the chasm, or whatever. In this aspect, it saves some time in the story and DMs should probably be paying PCs to take it. But it also exists as a combat mobility, in which what it does is negate all melee combat against themselves if they give up their own melee combat attacks.

3. A combat mode in which a player attacks with "claws", as opposed to "swords" or "spells".

Manifestly, the part that makes baby jesus cry is number 3. Why? Because the combat modes you'd otherwise have aren't balanced against each other to begin with! The basic concept is not bad, you cast a spell and you get to/have to start biting people for a while. You cast it when the enemy exhibits immunity to fire and vulnerability to biting.

Is it problematic? Oh hellz yeah. It's like applying the Vow of Poverty to yourself - you remove the equipment and get some bonuses instead. But the equipment wasn't balanced to begin with, so how do you assign those new bonuses? You remove your old attack styles and add a new one in its place. But the old attack styles weren't balanced, so how do you assign new ones?

---

In short, it is really easy to adjust Polymorph so that it doesn't stand out as broken within the context of D&D. That's not even a problem. But when you do that, it becomes increasingly obvious that that is a context that doesn't mean much to balance things in.

As long as the Fighter can spend ever class feature he ever gets on numeric bonuses, and the Cleric can spend half her alotment of spells every day and come up with bigger numbers - there's a problem. A really big problem. And when you strip things down to their game mechanical cores and try to build up from scratch - that becomes painfully obvious.

As long as the Wizard 7 is casting a 4th level spell as his most powerful magic, and a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MyTh 1 is casting a 2nd level spell as his most powerful magic - you really can't balance a 4th level spell as doing "everything a 2nd level spell can do only more". Or rather, you can, but then you're stuck with the fact that the Mystic Theurge will never ever be good.

-Username17

[User3]

I basically agree that the game is in dire need of serious rebalancing at a fundamental level before revising polymorph becomes number one on the priority list. So there's that.

On the other hand, until that rebalancing comes along, people are still playing with the brokety broke existing rules, and a lot of those people seem to think that it's just not possible to balance polymorph. Since the base spell comes at a level that's more or less on the cusp of when the game stops working entirely, I think there is a limited amount of value in patching it into workability as long as you're not planning on playing past about 10th level anyway (and, if you're smart, you aren't).

So it's bailing water out of the Titanic. On the other hand, until the Titanic sinks or the rescue ship arrives, I want to try to keep my feet warm. As you correctly state, it's not hard to make a polymorph that doesn't break the game and doesn't suck -- but a lot of people seem to have a mental block against actually doing so.

--d.

[Neeek]

1106159243[/unixtime]]
On the other hand, until that rebalancing comes along, people are still playing with the brokety broke existing rules, and a lot of those people seem to think that it's just not possible to balance polymorph. Since the base spell comes at a level that's more or less on the cusp of when the game stops working entirely, I think there is a limited amount of value in patching it into workability as long as you're not planning on playing past about 10th level anyway (and, if you're smart, you aren't).

The obvious problem in that observation is that the only reason you *don't* play higher levels in the first place is because of the un-patchability( and inherent pointlessness of things like fighters past level 8 or so) of the rules at level 9+. Arguably early, which is why we are discussing the pain and agony that is Polymorph.

Let's see...a level scalable version...

Can change target into a monster of CR =< Caster's CR. Max total bonus = 1/2 caster's character level, and any penalties(from gaining a lower dex or what not) do not add to this total. Gain claw and bite natural attacks only. Anything else is considered "too complex" to learn to use during the duration of the spell. I like your size change idea. No reach(you aren't used to hitting from farther away or something), size increases come with bonus strength(typically, and if someone take something that doesn't then it's their fault for being dumb). How about giving movement abilities a failure chance in combat? Maybe 100%-5*caster's character level?

Alternatively, how about give Str bonus based on size increase, straight up? That way you'd be getting basically a bonus to damage for an AC penalty, with additional story bonuses(grow to giant size to save Rapunzel or what not).

I dunno. Polymorph doesn't seem too hard to deal with. It was just poorly implemented in 3.x.

[The_Hanged_Man]

The trick is letting it give useful stat bonuses, kewl movement powers, change form (and attack modes) and not getting overpowered while doing it. I do like the multiple spell-defined forms ideas.

[RandomCasualty]

1106157409[/unixtime]]
In short, it is really easy to adjust Polymorph so that it doesn't stand out as broken within the context of D&D. That's not even a problem. But when you do that, it becomes increasingly obvious that that is a context that doesn't mean much to balance things in.

No, it's not easy. Because if it were easy whenever we had a polymorph thread like this you'd see everyone saying. "Here's what I do with polymorph in my games" and then they'd post.

Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

And they'd follow it with a spell description that doesn't suck. ANd if it were indeed very easy everyone would be doing that, and then we'd be able to see which was the best fix and going from there. So either we're all incredibly stupid or it's not nearly as easy as you make it out to be.

But nobody has done that, and that leads me to believe that it's anything but easy. I don't think that most people even have a variant version of polymorph to use, let alone a balanced one. Because it's damn hard. There's so many things you've got to account for when turning into a creature and sometimes you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, much like dire wolf fu versus octopus fu.

-------

Now it's true that it's easy to write a good disguise polymorph, but whenever we want it to act as a combat buff and a versatile combat buff (that is, you fight like the monster, you don't just gain some random bonuses), things become very difficult.

The thing with polymorph is it's supposed to do all of the following in some kind of balanced fashion
-let you turn into a raven and spy on people
-turn into a wolf and cross terrain fast and track people by scent
-turn into a hawk and fly.
-Turn into a giant, a hydra or a dragon and maul somebody
-Turn into a drow elf and infiltrate the drow.

And balancing these things become exceedingly difficult. You're talking about a spell that could give you things like strength bonuses, con bonuses, dex bonuses, flight, burrowing, incorporeality, size/reach modifiers, natural armor, more attacks, different attack forms and so on.

Now, you can toss versatility out the window and make a set selection of packages that someone can choose and that's it. You can also discard the buffing premise entirely and have it be purely a form shifting magic. Or you can toss balance out the window and make it buffing and versatile but potentially broken.

But to make something balanced, versatile and a buff spell, that's nearly impossible if not outright impossible.

[Oberoni]

Now, you can toss versatility out the window and make a set selection of packages that someone can choose and that's it.

Yeah, I like that, and I have to ask why on earth you see this as non-versatile.

Let's say that we design, I dunno, a dozen scaling packages. When you assume the form of a package, you have to choose a creature that is appropriate to the concept of the package (ogre or minotaur for the Strength package, rat or cat for the small scout package, etc.).

What's the problem? This would cover a huge number of potential polymorph forms, would allow the spell to be versatile, and allow all sorts of disguises.

But you know what? I've said something like this before, recently, on this board. And it was based on something that others have said beforehand.

And each time this suggestion comes up in any form, you ignore it, so you can go back to claiming that there's no good way to do Polymorph.

It's frustrating--I think you mentally reboot yourself every week or two, making a continuing, cross-thread conversation on this topic impossible. You simply revert to your earlier claim that a balanced Pmorph is impossible--no matter how many times people such as myself have suggested the packages idea, and no matter how many times others have referred to an earlier edition's Polymorph (or, as Frank suggested, the 3.0 Alter Self).

So, really, here's an idea. Put a link in your sig to this particular post. Label the hyperlink "A Sound Polymorph Concept."

In two weeks, you'll forget that anyone's ever proposed it; however, you'll inevitably look at your sig, wonder what that link leads to, click on it, and BAM! You're back in the game.

...

P.S. I doubt anyone wants to right up such a Polymorph because it would take at least five damn hours to do so. If you want, you can try to write it out yourself, and just see if you like the idea. Perhaps unfortunately, I've got other things to do, and I would wager a lot of other Denners do as well.

[RandomCasualty]

1106196388[/unixtime]]
P.S. I doubt anyone wants to right up such a Polymorph because it would take at least five damn hours to do so. If you want, you can try to write it out yourself, and just see if you like the idea. Perhaps unfortunately, I've got other things to do, and I would wager a lot of other Denners do as well.

Right. ANd then after you've written it up youv'e got to balance it.

It's not that a twelve package system is unversatile, it's just that it's unworkable. To write up a polymorph that people are actually going to use, it's got to be something that you can write up. If you can't actually write it up, then Skip's version, no matter hiow terrible, is better than yours. Because you've got nothing written down and he actually does.

A solution which nobody is going to implement is useless. The goal of threads like this should be to actually produce a full text useable version of polymorph. And it seems like every potential fix falls under the "too complicated to be bothered with it." catagory. And what good does that do anyone?

Because really we need a real solution, not some hypothetical about what people could do given they had 30+ hours of free time set aside to creating and balancing it. This spell exists. Right now. We can suggest all kinds of crap like rewriting every monster entry to accomodate polymorph better or doing some hypothetical change, but that's not actually helping anyone right now.

Which seriously makes me wonder, what do people do with polymorph right now in their games?

I can tell you what I do for my games.

Right now, in my games when you polymorph you automatically lose all your AC bonuses besides armor and shield, and whatever natural armor you get from polymophing. In addition Maximum physical stats are capped at 26 for regularl polymorph and 36 for PaO/shapechange. The max natural armor you can get is also capped by your caster level. And PaO cannot increase your intelligence.

Also, there's a general "no stupid shit" clause that goes along with polymorph forms, basically saying the DM will disallow anything that's stupid powerful, like balor sword mining and similar crap.

[User3]

RC, I'd like to point out that what you're complaining that "nobody has done" is in fact exactly what I'm trying to do with this thread.

I can sort of guess at what I think your objections to the spell mechanics presented are going to be -- but I'd really rather not guess; I'd rather actually hear them.

--d.

[Neeek]

1106205165[/unixtime]]

It's not that a twelve package system is unversatile, it's just that it's unworkable. To write up a polymorph that people are actually going to use, it's got to be something that you can write up. If you can't actually write it up, then Skip's version, no matter hiow terrible, is better than yours. Because you've got nothing and he actually has one.

Ultimately a solution that nobody actually implements is useless. I mean seriously, the goal of threads like this should be to actually produce a full text useable version of polymorph. And it seems like every potential fix falls under the "too complicated to be bothered with it." catagory. And what good does that do anyone?

*Not* having a write-up and *disallowing* the spell is significantly better than the current official version. So claim "no version is worse than the official version" is just silly.

It's not that the solution is too complicated to be bothered with. It's too complicated to be bothered with without getting paid for it. Doing a half-assed, intentionally unplayably weak, but convincing version would still take me 5-6 hours to work up, and solving the problem just isn't important enough to me to bother with when I can just say "You know that whole Polymorph thing? It doesn't work." in my own game. Which is similar to the Oberoni Fallacy, but I think the distiction is clear enough to everyone here.

That being said my 5 minute solution is simple: Str, Dex,and Con increase/decreases based directly on size, with the corresponding size bonuses or penalties. Max size change based on caster level. Claw/bite only natural attacks available. Chance of failure for new movement abilities under duress based on character level of polymorphed character. No reach for increased size. No other abilities gained at all, and loss of all racial abilities, and all abilities of other forms assumed. Usable to *look* like any creature or object.

Boom. Done. Is it balanced? Probably not. Is it broken? Unlikely, but if it is, it's still much better than the current official version, and I'm doing this off the top of my head.

[RandomCasualty]

1106206296[/unixtime]]
It's not that the solution is too complicated to be bothered with. It's too complicated to be bothered with without getting paid for it. Doing a half-assed, intentionally unplayably weak, but convincing version would still take me 5-6 hours to work up, and solving the problem just isn't important enough to me to bother with when I can just say "You know that whole Polymorph thing? It doesn't work." in my own game. Which is similar to the Oberoni Fallacy, but I think the distiction is clear enough to everyone here.

Just saying "Can't fix it well enough, just ban it" is a possible solution, and that solution can actually work.

But that's not what Frank is saying. Frank is saying that it's somehow easy to design a balanced version, yet not easy enough for him to just produce a full text of the spell. Quite simply if you're going to say it's easy to write a balanced polymorph then do it.

Now if you don't think it's easy and you'd rather just ban it, then ok, you agree with me then. I'm the one saying it's too difficult to truly fix well and you're better off either banning it or just letting the DM decide what it does on a case by case basis.

But I'm just sick of hearing crap about how "Easy" it is to make a workable polymorph. And I'm going to call bullshit everytime someone says something dumb like that. If it's so easy then we should have seen a workable full text version of this "very easy" fix by now. And it's really that simple.

[User3]

Polymorph
Wizard 4, Transmutation

Pick a size category within one step of your own. Pick any appearance you like. You may exchange your hands for a slam, bite or two claw attacks appropriate to your size. You do not gain ability score changes from size changes. In addition choose from the following list:

- +4 enhancement bonus to two physical abilities
- a fly or burrow speed
- +4 natural AC bonus

Your DM has to approve your combination of apperance and traits (i.e. he can forbid you from gaining strength by polymorphing into a cat).

Feel free to extend or to fiddle with the list; it could just as easily be done using point costs. Also certain abilities could only be available at higher caster levels.


Murtak
(who will need to register if he keeps posting)

[Josh_Kablack]

http://www.giantitp.com/Func0012.html[b ... &postnum=0

[SuicideChump]

A DM I know has contingentially limited the shapes you can assume through Polymorph: i.e. you can only assume forms you are familiar with. As long as you meet (or fight with) a creature, you will be able to reproduce its form and abilities (within the limits of the spell).
A PC is considered to be familiar with most of Animals, for instance, but not with Magical Beasts, which are rare (but can be encountered during the campaign).
You only have to meet creatures, getting in touch with them with your physical senses (and not studying about them in a bestiary or a taxonomy manual).

At higher levels you could overcome the problem by summoning/gating creatures, anyway, but not always in a campaign you have days to waste in summoning creatures

[Josh_Kablack]

1110303172[/unixtime]]A DM I know has contingentially limited the shapes you can assume through Polymorph: i.e. you can only assume forms you are familiar with. As long as you meet (or fight with) a creature, you will be able to reproduce its form and abilities (within the limits of the spell).

A DM I know has drunk Robotussin until he puked.

[Neeek]

1110325697[/unixtime]]
A DM I know has drunk Robotussin until he puked.

How much Robotussin does that take?

[Josh_Kablack]

About a bottle, depending on the formula and flavor used.

And it has about as much chance of fixing polymorph as does limiting available forms by prior encounter. Neither's going to work at all, but each will make some people happy.

[User3]

1110325956[/unixtime]]
And it has about as much chance of fixing polymorph as does limiting available forms by prior encounter.

[Burp] "No???..." [throws away a Robotussin empty demijohn]

[grey_muse]

I disallow polymorph completely. Well, almost completely; I allow a version of it that lasts for 1 round/caster level and turns the target into a harmless animal, like the polymorph spell from Warcraft 3.

I still allow druidic wild shape. That means shapechanging is pretty much the domain of the druid. *shrug*

[Neeek]

1110325956[/unixtime]]
And it has about as much chance of fixing polymorph as does limiting available forms by prior encounter. Neither's going to work at all, but each will make some people happy.

Less chance. Who knows what you might come up with under a sever dose of cough syrup.

[fbmf]

[TGFBS]
While the Robutussion thing was pretty damn funny, could we shift back to topic, please? Thank you.
[/TGFBS]

[User3]

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[Crissa]

Huh, what a bit of fortuitous thread necromancy.

Now, I don't think Frank nor WotC's current set of single-buffs or stat replacement totally fit the bill described here. On the other hand, I totally think this is one thing that should be doable in both Transmutation and Illusion - with differing levels of effacy per caster/spell level.

-Crissa

[virgil]

I myself am a big fan of the idea of changing Polymorph to instead grant the following to the caster.

Change Shape
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using change shape reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use change shape to take the form of a creature with a template. Changing shape results in the following changes to the creature:

* The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form.
* The creature loses the natural weapons and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
* The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
* The creature retains all other special attacks and qualities of its original form, except for breath weapons and gaze attacks.
* The creature retains the ability scores of its original form.
* Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
* The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
* The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
* Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

So the only statistical enhancements ever granted are size bonuses and base level natural attacks. While there likely remains some imbalance, I think this is MUCH closer to being a spell that isn't the end-all-be-all for 4th level spells like the current incarnation is.

[NineInchNall]

I would totally go with that ... Except have polymorph grant the Str and Dex of the target form. I just can't conceptually get my head around it otherwise.