How To Break Psionics

[Aktariel]

What more needs be said? Basically any 3.5 books are available.

I'm looking to prove to someone why psionics are as much or more "broken" than clerics. [Though I have yet to see a cleric archer build and therefore really understand why it's soooo broken, but hey. I believe you guys.]

And I saw Frank ranting around here a week or so ago about why, and it basically boiled down to "Because you can nova."

There was more to it, but I wanted to see if anyone can point me in the direction of ridiculous cheese.

Not Pun-Pun cheese. More like... The Wish and The Word.

EDIT: Builds, tips, hints, power suggestions and ways to abuse them... all would be helpful and appreciated.

[Lago_AM3P]

My advice? Throw your Psionic Handbook in the trash.

There's no such thing as a breakout psionics build.

Everything that a psionic can do can be done better by wizards/druids/clerics. I am so goddamn serious. This includes building gishes, blaster foolios, anything. Shit, man, psions aren't even good at dumping a lot of tokens on the field anymore. They nerfed astral construct for some idiotic reason.

You don't even have to work very hard to cheese out a character in a field better than a psion. You pretty much only need one other sourcebook--two at the most if you're a real overachiever.

So, for serious, give up on psionics if you're looking for power. There's not a single reason to pursue this path if you're looking for min-maxxingness.

Your question is like asking me how to cheese out a bard. You can do it and with a lot of effort end up with something better than what 95% of characters have... but if you're going to cheese, why half-ass it?

[RandomCasualty]

The main advantage to cheesing psionics is that most DMs aren't really prepared for it. Most experienced DMs know all the usual tricks for magic, but are much less familiar with psionics.

Still I'm not really too familiar with how you can do wish and word level cheese with psi.

About the most you could probably do is if you get into epic and can get the epic overchannel feat, you can do some crazy buffs/attacks in combination with timeless body. Aside from that I'm really not sure of what other stuff you can do on a true cheese scale with psionics.

Psionics is reasonably powerful, but it's not great for record breaking cheese characters.

[Lago_AM3P]

PROTIP:

THE FOLLOWING ADVICE IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT VALUE ONLY. LAGO STRONGLY ADVISES AGAINST TRYING TO BREAK THE GAME BY INTRODUCING MATERIAL YOUR DM ISN'T FAMILIAR WITH. IT CREATES MORE WORK FOR THE DM AND MAKES THE DM MISTRUST YOU.

Most experienced DMs know all the usual tricks for magic, but are much less familiar with psionics.

Whaaaaat? I thought that was an advantage for MAGIC. Everything people ever needed to know about psionics is seriously contained within two books--and I don't know a single DM in the universe who's let in Psionics without at least skimming the book. Also unfortunately most of psionics' tricks are reprinted from other material (like cleric archers).

Meanwhile there's a glurge of material for mainstream arcane magic coming at me so hard that I have no idea what to do with it. Take Eberron, for example. If you want to win the game with confusion and newness then just crack open pretty much any WotC book.

[Fwib]

Regardless of how you view psionics' power-level, I advise NOT going all-out on it unless your DM already uses it A LOT - like magic. In my experience, creating a character the DM is not expecting and solo-slaughtering the encounters may well get the material you are using banned or nerfed, unless the DM is already deep-down familiar with the material or believes it has no real problems.

[RandomCasualty]

1188931541[/unixtime]]
Whaaaaat? I thought that was an advantage for MAGIC. Everything people ever needed to know about psionics is seriously contained within two books--and I don't know a single DM in the universe who's let in Psionics without at least skimming the book. Also unfortunately most of psionics' tricks are reprinted from other material (like cleric archers).

Well, here's the thing. Psionics is rather tough to skim, because each power is actually several powers, thanks to augmentation. Looking at most powers won't seem too powerful, until you get high in level, but the DM may not take the time figure out what the augmentations can do. Psi seems a lot more sane than magic on face value.

The advantage to psi is that your buffs (almost all of them), scale on two dimensions. They grant bigger bonuses and they last longer.

[CalibronXXX]

Races of Stone Feats: Earth Sense, Earth Power
+
Universal Item(EPH): Torc of Power Preservation
+
Power(EPH): Bestow Power
=
Unlimited Power Points.

Combine that with almost being a wizard and you really don't need much else.

------

For being Gishy

Power(EPH): Body Control targeted on self
+
Power(EPH): Solicit Psycrystal
+
Any other buff powers you happen to feel like throwing in there.

------

For multi-action craziness that'll make the average wizard cry

Powers: Fission+Schismx2
+
Fussion with an unconscious Chokerx2
+
Quicken Power

That's 8 powers being flung around per round by the way, and you don't even care how many power points you're burning up because you are using one of the 3 or 4 unlimited PP tricks out there.

Edit: Oh yeah, almost forgot. Psychic Reformation; re-write your whole character(sans actual class levels) on the fly for a very small XP cost.

[Aktariel]

Anyone want to link or explain or gently guide me to an understanding of what a cleric archer is and why clerics in general are so damn good?

Divine Persistent Metamagic, yes...

Zen Archery for the win?

[Fwib]

1188934918[/unixtime]]Universal Item(EPH): Torc of Power Preservation

Nerfed in MIC.

[shirak]

1188936983[/unixtime]]Anyone want to link or explain or gently guide me to an understanding of what a cleric archer is and why clerics in general are so damn good?

Divine Persistent Metamagic, yes...

Zen Archery for the win?

It all begun with one of Frank's rants. He was saying that Arcane Archer sucks because everything they do can be done by a Cleric who just casts buffs on himself. Check out the Cheese Update thread and Nifty's Cheese thread.

As for Psionics. My favorite (read:only) piece of Cheese is The Save Game Mechanic

[Username17]

The Cleric Archer was originally a build I made for 3rd edition to deomstrate that a character who was simply a Cleric and spent her spell slots on buffs was in all ways better than an "Arcane Archer" - even had a better BAB and more Hit Points. The specific core of the first build has been nerfed all to hell (Persistent is now a +6 instead of a +4, Divine Favor gives a capped bonus, Greamter Magic Weapon no longer counts double on Bows/Arrows). But even as hey taketh with one hand they give with the other - Divine Metamagic Persistence allows characters to cheaply Persist all their spells even at low levels.

Basically, a Cleric can give herself a Fighter's BAB and Hit Points, and a Luck Bonus, and a Morale Bonus, Enhancement bonuses to weapons and stats and armor - even unnamed bonuses are not beyond you. If you take your equipment and invest it into methods to enhance your spells and use your spells to enhance your combat prowess you can out-fight any "combat" class and have spell slots left over to raise the dead.

And it gets called the "Cleric Archer" even if it's not actually a Cleric or an Archer because 7 years ago that was the first 3rd edition writeup of the concept.

----

And I saw Frank ranting around here a week or so ago about why, and it basically boiled down to "Because you can nova."

I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Really it's because "sometimes you don't nova". Psionics assumes that you throw down your most powerful powers over and over again - as well it should. But the game isn't just combat over and over again, there's also roleplaying going on. And sometimes you're supposed to use your low level "utility" powers. And unfortunately the Psionics system nut-punches you every time that happens by having the utility powers leech directly out of your cmbat action pool.

So irrespective of the various infinite power point loops which have been printed and reprinted (I honestly don't remember if having a Mindfeeder Weapon is overpowered or even good these days - I don't even care), the system is bad. Psionic characters simply aren't playing the same game as Rogues or Wizards. Their combat and non-combat identities are not segregated and they use a single power pol for both.

It exacerbates all problems inherent in a spell slot system and gives us nothing in return but broken promises.

-Username17

[CalibronXXX]

1188939587[/unixtime]]

1188934918[/unixtime]]Universal Item(EPH): Torc of Power Preservation

Nerfed in MIC.

Okay then off the top of my head I'll say: be an Azurin and take Midnight Augmentation in addition to Earth Power. Stick your two points of essentia into MA for Bestow power and get back 4 PPs for the cost of 3, instead of 3 PPs for 2 like you would have with the torc.

[shirak]

There's also Ye Olde Warforged Metamind trick. Be a Warforged Metamind 10 and have that power that allows you to extend a Duration by 1 round. Keep manifesting it forever and ever because you never sleep and stuff. Now you can have infinite PPs. Enjoy.

[Cielingcat]

Shirak, that trick is basically "play as a character 5 levels below you forever." A Warforged Psion 5/Metamind 10 is literally a 10th level character, and using infinite 10th level abilities isn't even something anyone cares about.

[shirak]

1188996868[/unixtime]]Shirak, that trick is basically "play as a character 5 levels below you forever." A Warforged Psion 5/Metamind 10 is literally a 10th level character, and using infinite 10th level abilities isn't even something anyone cares about.

I am embarrassed to say that I hadn't checked any sources before posting. I remember reading this trick and just assumed it was cool. Big mistake. Sorry.