The sudden interest in psionics

[Lago_AM3P]

So, I see a lot more threads lately asking about psionics or throwing out ideas or trying to justify it. And it frankly baffles me.

So, for all of the people who think that the current system has a place in the game, seriously, WTF?

I like the flavor of the system and I even find the magic rocks and ectoplasm imagery of psionics pretty damn cool. I, however, do not like the system at all and I thought everyone here was under the impression that not only is it not balanced but it shouldn't be used in the game.

So what give, gentle reader?

[CalibronXXX]

It's there, it's viable, it's not as ridiculously game breaking as magic, and I already know how it works; why ignore it?

[cthulhu]

The community here is pretty small and it only takes a few people to be interested in something for the discussion to zoom in a particular topic?

[RandomCasualty]

Well psi sucks, but it's not like the magic system is much better.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I like psi because I think the flavor is neat.

Plus, my games tend to have a slight sci-fi groove to them, so it fits.

Mechanically, I cannot defend the system in the least, so I won't try.

[Neeek]

Well, I sort of like the Psychic Warrior. I like the "selfish-buffer" archetype. That and the "stand around and make everyone super" are my favorite ways to play.

Does the system sort of suck? Yeah, but it's not like any part of D&D does much better. And I'm good enough to make the crappy parts work, and I find that I tend to die a lot regardless of what I do, so having more new character options quickly goes from fun to necessary.

[Lago_AM3P]

I have one nagging doubt about psionics that I've never been able to erase since Complete Psionics.

And that is the Lurk.

Is it just my imagination, or could a properly-cheesed Lurk be BETTER than a core rogue?

[Prak]

I personally like the idea of psionics, hell, the XPH "introduced" a few of my favorite things to 3.5, Thri-kreen, Soulblades, and Locuters(is that right? the class that always hovers...). I will admit that if one tries, Psi can completely break the game, if I recall correctly, I once worked out a way for a 7th level Psion to kill the terrasque... might have been 17th, can't remember, but I don't think it's much more broken than magic... and I'd say the only reason it could ever not have a place in a game world is if the DM specifically didn't want it there, but hell, I disallowed Orcs from a game world simply because I didn't want them in it, so I tend to see things as being able to be fit into any game world.

[JonSetanta]

1188978493[/unixtime]]I personally like the idea of psionics, hell, the XPH "introduced" a few of my favorite things to 3.5, Thri-kreen, Soulblades, and Locuters(is that right? the class that always hovers...). I will admit that if one tries, Psi can completely break the game, if I recall correctly, I once worked out a way for a 7th level Psion to kill the terrasque... might have been 17th, can't remember, but I don't think it's much more broken than magic... and I'd say the only reason it could ever not have a place in a game world is if the DM specifically didn't want it there, but hell, I disallowed Orcs from a game world simply because I didn't want them in it, so I tend to see things as being able to be fit into any game world.

Elocators. ^_^
The floating should be a feat though...

[Cielingcat]

The floating thing should be free, since it doesn't really do anything for you. It's on the level of a racial ability, which is something cool you get that differentiates you from other people but seriously doesn't actually matter in the long run.

Personally, the only psychics I like are called "psykers" and they tap into the energy of a hellish place of chaos and madness and often get eaten by demons who are drawn by the fact that they're channeling Warp energy.

[Koumei]

Or they mutate into horrific beings or their brains explode. And that is awesome.

Geneseed (the 40K d20 game that some friends made and were trying to get the rights to publish) basically used the psionic system for psykers, except they used their own Vitality (d8+Con) instead of a special power point reserve and nothing had any way of scaling other than augmenting the DCs. It was kind of weird. Overal, other than the fact that psykic rites dealt Wounds, they were vastly inferior to firearms.

[Aktariel]

I can say for me that the reason why I have been asking and talking about psionics is twofold: A] I've always liked the flavor but never put much time into the mechanics, so I thought I'd learn more, because B] my friend wants to play a psywarrior/psion in an upcomin game I'm DM-ing.

I'm still thinking about it. And keeping a nerf bat handy. Because I would much rather play E6 than Bone Reality Up The Backside, but he's all "let's do high-level shit because it's fun! And the DM's responsibility to make sure nothing is too overpowered. Or if we are, then up the monster difficulty!"

We'll see.

[Maj]

I prefer the mechanics of psimagic to the mechanics of the normal magic system. All new players to our group have tended to prefer it, as well (without my prompting).

[Bigode]

I like the flavor of the system and I even find the magic rocks and ectoplasm imagery of psionics pretty damn cool. I, however, do not like the system at all and I thought everyone here was under the impression that not only is it not balanced but it shouldn't be used in the game.

The guys who were here the last time you posted frequently still hold this impression, AFAIK; the issue's, indeed, that there's so few people here that even one guy* mentioning psionics quickly gets everyone's attention. The fact that there's experts who are perfectly able to give detailed summaries without being asses (and yes, I'm including you, despite that single paragraph about nonexistant "bitching" - such things happen, after all, and me being an ass about it would be idiotic) only helps. Other than that, Calibron speaks wisdom, as usual (for the case of those who don't have to learn it now; the ones who would probably would do fine using Tome stuff, not surpassing level 16 ever and being done with it).

*: namely, me - I put the "issues" (incarnum/psionics issues) threads, so I think that reminded people that those existed; OTOH, it also seems like WotC posters, of which I'm one, have been fleeing here more often of late.

I have one nagging doubt about psionics that I've never been able to erase since Complete Psionics.

And that is the Lurk.

Is it just my imagination, or could a properly-cheesed Lurk be BETTER than a core rogue?

Disregarding for a while the epic feat access, we should consider the rogue a pile of SA and UMD, right?

Well, the lurk has a base SA of 4d6 and UPD. Considering that MIC made psionic crafting just be magical crafting, it'd be pretty retarded to try to prevent UPD from being UMD; the lurk can pay 2 PP/1d6 SA (the maximum's said once as class level and once as ML - that's good editing for ya), +1d6 for free, which makes for hilarious 3d6 at level 2; so, the best SA's +15d6. The PP issue isn't a problem depending on what level of cheesiness we're talking about, due to mindfeeders - the real problem is that the augment is a swift action that enhances one attack, which I suppose flushes damage-dealing intentions down the drain. Skills have their base amount halved, but it's a damn Int-based manifester that gains Int to intiative to boot; good Will; another augment that deals base 2 Int/Wis (one of them) damage, +1/2 PPs, ignoring total concealment, a built-in PP recharge (half any single attack's damage - all of it at level 20), the weird (for a psionic class) ability to deal up to +22d6 to a good/evil target without even needing a SA trigger, and a largely lackluster DC (it's the expected for the level, just fails for being Will on a spellcaster/manifester ) that could prevent spellcasting/manifesting for 1 round, and the above-mentioned Int to intiative (and, of course, psychic warrior-like manifesting*); those should be the lurk's claims to fame - pass up veredict yourselves, guys.

*: includes grease, the whole insight bonus kit, detect hostile intent, (greater) concealing amorpha, evade attack (7 PP as an immediate to roll 1d20+[7 to 10] against DC 15 to negate any attack), danger sense (Not that it's particularly good, but there's the supposedly-lacking improved uncanny dodge and trap sense, which the psychic warrior could already snag too!), speak with dead, dimension door, freedom of movement, steadfast perception, wall of ectoplasm, power resistance, true seeing, contingency, dispelling buffer, personal mind blank and temporal acceleration (On par with time stop! Though perhaps not as good for the lurk ...). See here.

Prak: the soulknife's worse than the fighter! Think about the kittens (if Cielingcat hears you played one, I'm not sure whether it'll* wanna kill you or itself, BTW)! If you actually can stand the psionics system (which isn't by any means more broken than magic ...), try the arsenalist - if you don't, maybe switching powers for spells could make something that isn't ridiculous, though it'll have to compete with Tome stuff, right?

*: it's a cat, right? Besides, it's not like I know the gender of many people here ...

[Crissa]

I always thought Warlocks were a good adaption of the psionic ideal.

-Crissa

[Prak]

1189027596[/unixtime]]Prak: the soulknife's worse than the fighter! Think about the kittens (if Cielingcat hears you played one, I'm not sure whether it'll* wanna kill you or itself, BTW)! If you actually can stand the psionics system (which isn't by any means more broken than magic ...), try the arsenalist - if you don't, maybe switching powers for spells could make something that isn't ridiculous, though it'll have to compete with Tome stuff, right?

*: it's a cat, right? Besides, it's not like I know the gender of many people here ...

I like the flavour of the Soulknife, and one could easily make a Tome Soulknife...

[JonSetanta]

1189027894[/unixtime]]I always thought Warlocks were a good adaption of the psionic ideal.

-Crissa

Indeed. Closer to 1st Ed than anything else.
Alternity has a Psi system much like a Warlock but I know little about that.
There's a project for Psionic Warlock with different name somewhere in WOTC forum, but I don't know what happened to it lately if it ever got a start at all.

I witnessed AD&D psionics at its worst and let me tell you it was not pretty.
At level 6, my Psychic had the power of a level 10 Mage. Teleporting, TK, Ectoplasmic Form, Detonate, Healing, all the good shit. Yet, AD&D Psionics had a success/fail roll for casting AS WELL AS saving throw! ouch.
One encounter with 2 wolfweres and my 3 party members went like this:
"Tesrin uses Mind Thrust on it."
DM: "OK what does that do?"
*rolls* "I failed the check. Lost 15 PSPs. Uh.. there's a blast of mental energy around us, and... nothing happens."
Then someone died and we all got maimed cuz the beasts beat everyone else's init.

Imagine Nova-builds now in 3.5e with a 75% chance of success, 25% chance complete failure while still draining points, on top of the usual required saving throws. Yet, a L15 Psion would have the power of a L20 something.
Would there be as much complaint?

AD&D sucks. It might also be the root of most anti-psionics whining, since many gamers might recall the utter hodgepodge cheese that it once was.

Personally I'd prefer all Psionic powers to be combined into normal spellcaster lists and then have Psionics as just an alternative method for casting spells.
Hell, same with Warlock...

[NineInchNall]

1189031231[/unixtime]]
I like the flavour of the Soulknife, and one could easily make a Tome Soulknife...

You mean the Samurai? Hmm?

[Prak]

1189040298[/unixtime]]

1189031231[/unixtime]]
I like the flavour of the Soulknife, and one could easily make a Tome Soulknife...

You mean the Samurai? Hmm?

what do you mean?

[CalibronXXX]

Samurai mechanics can be used to portray a Soulknife-like character rather faithfully, flavor-wise.

Hey, speaking of Soul-Knives, does anyone have a link to the thread with the Soul-Knife/Mind Blade [Combat] feat in it? I've taken to bookmarking all the threads with good [Combat], [Skill], or [Magic] feats in them, and I don't have that one.

Edit: Never mind, found it. If anyone wants links to these scattered threads for whatever reason feel free to ask; I think I have most of them.

[ckafrica]

The staged abilities that increase with levels is good idea except you have to buy it again each time. I think it could work well like the spell thingys in Wheel of time RPG where you have to pay a higher slot to get a more effective result.
Spells should be the same way. You have the throw fire spell and depending on what level you cast it at, the more powerful it is.

[CalibronXXX]

1189055874[/unixtime]]The staged abilities that increase with levels is good idea except you have to buy it again each time. I think it could work well like the spell thingys in Wheel of time RPG where you have to pay a higher slot to get a more effective result.
Spells should be the same way. You have the throw fire spell and depending on what level you cast it at, the more powerful it is.

That's either a good idea or a horrible idea depending on the specifics of implementation. The way Psionics does direct damage, for example, is extremely retarded, and I'm too tired to think of an example of a time when this design decision is implemented correctly, oh wait, Astral Construct is probably a good example of when they got it, more or less, right.

[Draco_Argentum]

I kinda liked the concept of the health leeching hostile empathic feedbacking standstilling reach weapon user. Psy Wars are pretty neat, but ToB style rules would be a better place to build from.

[Prak]

1189053511[/unixtime]]Samurai mechanics can be used to portray a Soulknife-like character rather faithfully, flavor-wise.

Hey, speaking of Soul-Knives, does anyone have a link to the thread with the Soul-Knife/Mind Blade [Combat] feat in it? I've taken to bookmarking all the threads with good [Combat], [Skill], or [Magic] feats in them, and I don't have that one.

Edit: Never mind, found it. If anyone wants links to these scattered threads for whatever reason feel free to ask; I think I have most of them.

huh... never thought about that, but I can see it... I know that mixing Monk and Samurai breaks the already unbalanced gestalt like so much ill-formed candy glass...

think I could those links? I've been printing them out and adding them as part of an appendix to the pdf(which I've also printed out... all 210 pages of it...)

[CalibronXXX]

1189110781[/unixtime]]I know that mixing Monk and Samurai rapes the already broken gestalt like a helpless baby...

1189110781[/unixtime]]think I could those links? I've been printing them out and adding them as part of an appendix to the pdf(which I've also printed out... all 210 pages of it...)

[Skill]Feats by Iaimeki
[Combat] and [Magic]Feats by Koumei
[Combat]Feats by Janus Jones
[Combat]Feat by AlphaNerd and [Skill]Feat by Judging Eagle

And I believe there was a thread where you posted a Familiar granting [Magic]Feat.