Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:53 am
So, if spellcasting is more powerful because it's adaptable...
...Why not make 'spell' lists for every class?
-Crissa
...Why not make 'spell' lists for every class?
-Crissa
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Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:57 am
Do you mean randomly give fighters and what-not spells, or restrict what casters can take to themes like the warmage?
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:15 am
Do you even read my posts?
-Crissa
-Crissa
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:20 am
I R konfuzed
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:28 am
Hell yes. I've seen enough convincing fightery characters who could concievably be using spells from any school though transmutation seems the most generic and universal fit.
I'd be happy with having only one class that gave full casting, +1 BAB/Level, 2 good saves, 8 skills/level, and 6 base HP/level (I hate rolled HP... there is no good reason that two characters with identical stats, levels and CR should have huge differences in HP... none). A feat-esque selection at every level would cover passive abilities like evasion and monk AC, faster movement, summoned familiar, etc.
I'd probably rather than calling the full casting "spells" just generically dub them "special abilities" and make them spontaneously castable with slots initially and at-will for ones that are... maybe 3 levels below highest usable (so if you can use 4th level spells, your 1st and zero level spells can go at-will).
I'd be happy with having only one class that gave full casting, +1 BAB/Level, 2 good saves, 8 skills/level, and 6 base HP/level (I hate rolled HP... there is no good reason that two characters with identical stats, levels and CR should have huge differences in HP... none). A feat-esque selection at every level would cover passive abilities like evasion and monk AC, faster movement, summoned familiar, etc.
I'd probably rather than calling the full casting "spells" just generically dub them "special abilities" and make them spontaneously castable with slots initially and at-will for ones that are... maybe 3 levels below highest usable (so if you can use 4th level spells, your 1st and zero level spells can go at-will).
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:44 am
Oh so you mean do away with spell schools and class lists, just have everyone to their own personal selection?
I bantered that idea with some friends years ago but they decided it's 'too powerful', and I pushed it aside.
But now that you mention it, I never did change my opinion on the matter.
So yeah my vote in to do away with that crap.
Unless you mean something else entirely.
clikmil: I always argued against rolling HP and took average, while some players would "just get lucky, I guess" and end up with near max HP for every level.
Oh how funny that is. ha. ha.
Trying out a houserule sometime soon (I hope, like in this year sometime) with max HP for everyone. We're also boosting Evocations and methods for warriors to deal more damage as they level, and stat boosting through feats, so we'll see what wonders and horrors come out of that mess.
I bantered that idea with some friends years ago but they decided it's 'too powerful', and I pushed it aside.
But now that you mention it, I never did change my opinion on the matter.
So yeah my vote in to do away with that crap.
Unless you mean something else entirely.
clikmil: I always argued against rolling HP and took average, while some players would "just get lucky, I guess" and end up with near max HP for every level.
Oh how funny that is. ha. ha.
Trying out a houserule sometime soon (I hope, like in this year sometime) with max HP for everyone. We're also boosting Evocations and methods for warriors to deal more damage as they level, and stat boosting through feats, so we'll see what wonders and horrors come out of that mess.
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:06 am
I figure a Ranger's spell list is easy. A Rogue has UMD, honestly. A Bard doesn't need much, probably give every non 1/2 BAB class the same spells per day - as Cleric.
But what sort of spell lists are appropriate for Barbarians and Fighters? I'd want a nice default one that focused on combat and rage and such... And then let them have, say, a school or domain as a variant instead of the default spell list. I'd have them learn spells as a Sorceror, though - whereas Divine casters generally would have preperation.
That's how I think I'd do it though.
But... would it give the options needed to help the turgid classes?
-Crissa
But what sort of spell lists are appropriate for Barbarians and Fighters? I'd want a nice default one that focused on combat and rage and such... And then let them have, say, a school or domain as a variant instead of the default spell list. I'd have them learn spells as a Sorceror, though - whereas Divine casters generally would have preperation.
That's how I think I'd do it though.
But... would it give the options needed to help the turgid classes?
-Crissa
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:09 am
I think Crissa's notion is simply to let every class have a relevant and competitive spell list. I just want to go a step further since I imagine any spell list as being potentially germane to any archtype.
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:20 am
I don't mind the idea of burning a feat to have access to a Domain or similar - Monk weapons or exotic weapons could come with a Domain, for instance, which would make them a good buy instead of dead weight.
But yeah, I'd want to make a simple, sample list that'd be appropriate for the 'no magic' archtype that usually makes for the fights against new ideas so annoying...
-Crissa
But yeah, I'd want to make a simple, sample list that'd be appropriate for the 'no magic' archtype that usually makes for the fights against new ideas so annoying...
-Crissa
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:33 am
Hmm.. warriors need basic defense self-buffs, weapon enhancements, movement enhancers, new locomotive options like flight or mount summoning, some form of AoE and/or long range attack that covers a broad stroke (or maybe just cuz I been reading OnePiece with Zoro's badass slashing moves..)
Things they don't 'need' are the non-direct-combat stuff that should be left to specialists, like healing, support buffs, summoning, the better forms of locomotion like teleporting, and of course the best explosions. These should be relegated to the magey types, or at least those with the 'better caster level progression'.
A single Domain for warriors seems fine. I had a similar idea to that but it also involved not giving the warriors the Domain related power.
Things they don't 'need' are the non-direct-combat stuff that should be left to specialists, like healing, support buffs, summoning, the better forms of locomotion like teleporting, and of course the best explosions. These should be relegated to the magey types, or at least those with the 'better caster level progression'.
A single Domain for warriors seems fine. I had a similar idea to that but it also involved not giving the warriors the Domain related power.
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:57 am
Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1190524544[/unixtime]]Do you even read my posts?
-Crissa
I try to, but I'm beginning to suspect it isn't worth the effort. The realm of uncertainty around the way you express yourself is very large.
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:35 am
Voss at [unixtime wrote:1190530653[/unixtime]]Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1190524544[/unixtime]]Do you even read my posts?
-Crissa
I try to, but I'm beginning to suspect it isn't worth the effort. The realm of uncertainty around the way you express yourself is very large.
Ouch.
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:07 pm
Spells are basically special abilities. Have lists of special abilities preferrably several; that characters can choose can which balanced abilities they want to follow
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:19 pm
What about giving the nonspellcasting classes access to a single (or more) spheres? Maybe make a few spheres related to what fighters and barbarians would likely have access to and give them a choice. Rinse and repeat for other classes.
Actually, that sounds like a good idea. I might do that in a future game I might run.
Actually, that sounds like a good idea. I might do that in a future game I might run.
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:32 pm
I think of games like Etherlords and Puzzlequest, where the "warriors" use the same mechanics as the "wizards" and it all works out fine.
Of course at that point I don't really think it will look much like D&D anymore. But as Keith recently confided to me "It seems like less and less trouble to just write a whole game from scratch all the time."
-Username17
Of course at that point I don't really think it will look much like D&D anymore. But as Keith recently confided to me "It seems like less and less trouble to just write a whole game from scratch all the time."
-Username17
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:39 pm
FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1190568756[/unixtime]]I think of games like Etherlords and Puzzlequest, where the "warriors" use the same mechanics as the "wizards" and it all works out fine.
Of course at that point I don't really think it will look much like D&D anymore. But as Keith recently confided to me "It seems like less and less trouble to just write a whole game from scratch all the time."
-Username17
Agreed with K. But I tried that once, it ended up being a big classless d20 mess. Still have the project on a wiki in case people are interested, but the general reaction to a heavily modified point-based d20 variant is "no".
The best result I got out of the point system d20 was that LA+0 races are worth 5-6 feats, and a single level is worth 7-8. I use that info in designing stuff to this day.
D&D reallly would have been better off if everyone had access to the same spells but in different combinations. It would mean warriors, casters, and monsters all used the same magics in different ways, rather than the current shit we have with Warlocks, Truenamers, Binders, Psionics, Beguilers, Dragon Shamans and whatever other abominated spellcasting systems WOTC can throw at us.
But what's Etherlords and Puzzlequest?
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:21 am
Etherlords was a computer game I believe.
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:03 am
I see some pics but it doesn't reveal much... looks like a cross between Warcraft 3, NWN, and Baldur's Gate series.
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:25 am
Etherlords is a rather fun computer game series.
It runs like a cross between warlords for the strategy map and magic for the battles.
Only the card game style mechanics are a little better than magic and the not too bad graphics slightly obscure the fact that you are playing a card game.
It runs like a cross between warlords for the strategy map and magic for the battles.
Only the card game style mechanics are a little better than magic and the not too bad graphics slightly obscure the fact that you are playing a card game.
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:58 am
Awww damn what a load of crap... If I want to play a card game, I'd play a card game, not a computer game that works like one.
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:59 am
You could just give fighters a RoW style domain every 4th level, starting at 4 (that is the point to me where fighters start to go of the sucky deep end)
might be intresting. Quickest fighter fix evar. Hey.. works for everyone really.
might be intresting. Quickest fighter fix evar. Hey.. works for everyone really.
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:17 am
sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1190532933[/unixtime]]Voss at [unixtime wrote:1190530653[/unixtime]]Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1190524544[/unixtime]]Do you even read my posts?
-Crissa
I try to, but I'm beginning to suspect it isn't worth the effort. The realm of uncertainty around the way you express yourself is very large.
Ouch.
Ouch, indeed, but also true, at least in this case.
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:24 am
cthulhu at [unixtime wrote:1190606375[/unixtime]]You could just give fighters a RoW style domain every 4th level, starting at 4 (that is the point to me where fighters start to go of the sucky deep end)
might be intresting. Quickest fighter fix evar. Hey.. works for everyone really.
The War domain simulates many Fighter functions:
Code: Select all
WAR DOMAIN[br][br]Granted Power: Free Martial Weapon Proficiency with deity’s favored weapon (if necessary) and Weapon Focus with the deity’s favored weapon.[br]War Domain Spells[br]Spell Name Brief Description[br]1 Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.[br]2 Spiritual Weapon: Magical weapon attacks on its own.[br]3 Magic Vestment: Armor or shield gains +1 enhancement per four levels.[br]4 Divine Power: You gain attack bonus, +6 to Str, and 1 hp/level.[br]5 Flame Strike: Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage).[br]6 Blade Barrier: Wall of blades deals 1d6/level damage.[br]7 Power Word Blind: Blinds creature with 200 hp or less.[br]8 Power Word Stun: Stuns creature with 150 hp or less.[br]9 Power Word Kill: Kills creature with 100 hp or less.If many of these or even all could be granted at-will as a single low level fighter feat, what effect would that have on 'class balance', most importantly between what we arbitrarily know as Warrior and Mage types?
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:33 am
If many of these or even all could be granted at-will as a single low level fighter feat, what effect would that have on 'class balance', most importantly between what we arbitrarily know as Warrior and Mage types?
Or just give it out with weapon specialization. Still doesn't give them a way to bust out of forcecage. Gives them magic vestment so armour will always be on par for the course.
Give them greater magic weapon 1/h a day per level for free as well and that would probably help.
Against flying monsters or whatever when they cannot keep up, slinging around flamestrikes and power works isn't horrible.
Re: Spell lists for everyone!
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:38 am
Now for flavor, imagine a warrior creating Domain effects with their weapon blows.
A Power Word could be changed so that it's not a vocalized effect but a somatic one, caused by a precision/powerful weapon strike.
I think this line of thought caused the Tome of Battle to be printed, but it's really a common situation to come across.
The division between warrior and mage was bound to be blurred eventually.
A Power Word could be changed so that it's not a vocalized effect but a somatic one, caused by a precision/powerful weapon strike.
I think this line of thought caused the Tome of Battle to be printed, but it's really a common situation to come across.
The division between warrior and mage was bound to be blurred eventually.