DM toys vs. PC toys?

[Maxus]

This idea hit me earlier, so forgive me if it's not really polished...


But it does seem to me that that's stuff meant to be used by DMs and stuff meant to be used by PCs.

Of course, you're thinking 'Duh,' but, really. The way the rules are set up, traps are there for the amusement of DMs, and something is seriously wrong with a DM if they're not having fun with their campaign's BBEG.

Of course, I'm starting to think this also applies to some character classes. Sneaky classes make good DM toys, because they can always get a bit of divine intervention when needed to let them make the first hit. And don't get me started on Assassin and Death Attack.

To bring this further, look at Frank and K's own Celestial Beacon. I aboslutely love the flavor of the class--it's in the upper reaches of Good-aligned badassery. But I'd seriously reserve it for if I DMed a party of evil-aligned characters and needed a BBGG. Of course, that in itself could be a start to an adventure.... "Bring me the head of Mikelis!"


And the point? That the Celestial Beacon class is a class that makes a wonderful DM tool, something that players don't really need to touch. Like crafting items or traps. Why deal with all those crap rules when you can have an understanding that, hey, we did something nice for a wizard, and he's going to have some really amazing weapons made for us in three months. Come to that, where's the satisfaction in making your own traps? You're likely not going to be around to have the fun of watching it go off, and unless you can set up a trap in two rounds or less (Tangent: I personally like the idea of invisible wires at neck-height, along with another one that would be neck-height on a gnome or halfling a few feet further), I don't see anyone as really bothering to make them. Yeah, it'd be cool if you could speed up to stretch a wire across the doorway, but the pursuit can likely run as fast as you can, but thanks to the 30 feet-per-round being pretty common...

So, I have to ask the Gaming Den, whose gaming knowledge and wisdom is far greater than mine: What other crap exists for DMs to play with, due to being basically unworkable for PCs?

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Where is this celestial beacon class?

[Judging__Eagle]

Tome of Fiends if I recall correctly.

[Maxus]

I'd like to amend and clarify the earlier statement. I did not mean to imply the Celestial Beacon is crap on a par with the Craft and trapmaking rules. Far from it. If I ever needed a class that would have a fair chance of successfully soloing an entire evil party it's my first choice, and I would gleefully use it and watch the party's shock deepen further and further as more and more tricks came out (I firmly believe one of the joys of a DM is being able to pull out stuff the players haven't seen and force them to improvise). But the thing is a Celestial Beacon seems to work best alone, from a balance standpoint. Those abilities set you up to righteously pwn a fair chunk of the monster manuals, and cause serious peril to entire parties of evil-aligned adventurers when combined with Cleric spellcasting. Or, heck, you could use the Rebalanced Paladin they cooked up on the wizard boards, which someone pointed me to (Because I'm a nice guy... http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045 ) and get full martial weapon proficiency and halfway decent (read: infinitely better) spellcasting to boot.
Anyway. The point is that any evil character, or group thereof, PC or otherwise, is at a serious disadvantage against the Celestial Beacon, just by being evil, and eventually, just by being in a group in which an 80-foot radius can cover more than one of them. Oh, wait. That disadvantage applies to everything, not just evil people. Oops.

I totally love the class, its flavor, and the abilities. It rocks, it tastes great, and the abilities are freakin' awesome. But until the rest of DnD catches up to it and the designers start making classes that are all balanced by being equally awesome, I'd almost have to save it for a solo campaign or for a BBGG to counter an evil party, just to keep the jealousy down.

[Catharz]

Something should not be considered a 'DM toy' if it's overpowered and a 'PC toy' if it isn't. If it's overpowered you shouldn't be playing with it. If you, as a DM, want to write up some class for your own use as an NPC, go ahead and make it unbalanced. That's fine, because you know where it's unbalanced and you're not going to abuse it. Don't try to publish it as a "DM toy", because other DMs are likely as not to accidentally cause a TPK because they don't know that your toy is unbalanced.

What you say about traps is closer to the truth, but remember than plenty of player want their PCs setting up defenses around camp each night. The definition of a 'trap' can be incredibly broad, and there are plenty of instances where they're good PC toys.

Fundamentally, a good DM toy is going to be something simple. That doesn't mean that it isn't a good PC toy too. Basically, if you have to waste huge amounts of time setting up NPCs you aren't playing with the right toys.

[Edit] tl;dr [/Edit]

[Neeek]

I find that PC toys are anything complicated, and DM toys are anything simple. Running 40 different characters is exhausting assuming you aren't doing much with any of them.

[Koumei]

I agree with Neeek there - unless we're talking BBEGs (or rivals or whatever), who can have plenty of complexity, plenty of time put into them. I like customising bad guys for 1 on 1 games.

I think certain spells work better as PC toys. Like Power Word: Pain. A level 1 Sorcerer casts that on one enemy per round, and either they die from the spell, or they get killed by the fighter and the spell never made a difference. Or they cast it and the party flees, letting the enemy die within a few rounds.

A CR 1 Kobold Sorcerer casts it on one party member, and that party member (assuming the low levels) actually dies. It's practically guaranteed - even after they waste the Kobold. Heck, with Races of the Fanboy, you can have a CR 1 encounter consisting of 4 Kobolds, each who have 1 HP and can cast that spell once. If they win Initiative, the whole party dies after they kill the Kobolds.

One thing I don't like is "This monster is a DM toy only". Half the time it applies to the cool ones (for instance, I don't actually care if I can't play a troll in anything except a 1 on 1 game (in those, every encounter can be tailored to work well for the player), but Mind Flayers, Beholders, Aboleths, certain Outsiders of all varieties, a number of fey...), and leads to players (or at least, me) saying "Fine, I'll run a game just so I have access to these."

Which means sometimes you have hordes of weird DMPCs hanging around the players being annoying, and sometimes the game is simply set in an odd place so that the DM can roleplay as some of those weird critters when the PCs aren't out killing stuff.