The Pelorian Drug Cult

[Captain_Bleach]

I have this idea, but I need your help. I need to know where in the PHB/SRD it says "Channeling Positive Energy is a good act, while channeling Negative Energy is always an Evil Act."
Now, if one takes more than double hit points worth of Positive Energy, said person explodes in a burst of fire. Said information is in the Manual of the Planes.

See where I am going with this?

Imagine if several Pelorian Clerics got tired of the rampant cases of Undead in the Material Plane. Let's say that they found a Deus Ex Machina that will cause a gateway to the Positive Energy Plane, slowly spreading all over the Material Plane.
However, regardless of how many innocent lives are destroyed by the Positive Energy, "Channeling Positive Energy is always a Good Act. Thus, by the RAW, said Clerics are acting within there moral code of Alignment to use said gateway. But what if Pelor complains? Well, then the real masters of the multi-verse, Alignment, will reign Pelor in.
Regardless of what said crazy clerics do, their is nothing for their god to do to stop them.
So, what do you guys think of this idea?
I made this up mainly as a challenge to those who think that Alignment and the Book of Exalted Deeds are logical.
As I cannot post on the WotC, due to the Gleemax change, can someone else give me credit and post on the board, or at least provide a link? I just want to see what responses the Alignment apologists come up with.

But get this! Imagine if said cultists infuse addictive drugs with Positive Energy, which line the cult leaders' pockets with gold in order to fund their gateway project.
I cannot think of how Pelor, and the deities of good in general, will react to this!

[Count Arioch the 28th]

"Channeling" positive energy is always a good act. As in, using Turn Undead.

Opening a portal to the positive energy plain isn't channeling, it's openening a portal to the positive energy plain.

What you need to do is somehow make it so that the clerics are channeling positive energy which opens that portal which annihilates the world.

[Captain_Bleach]

1196032857[/unixtime]]"Channeling" positive energy is always a good act. As in, using Turn Undead.

Opening a portal to the positive energy plain isn't channeling, it's openening a portal to the positive energy plain.

What you need to do is somehow make it so that the clerics are channeling positive energy which opens that portal which annihilates the world.

Divine Metamagic from Complete Divine uses Turn Undead uses. Make a Gate to the Positive Energy Plane with multiple "Enlarge Spells" on it.
Would that justify the use of it?

[Captain_Bleach]

ZOMG, K is active in thread!! He's probably posting something witty!

Edit: Or not...

[Voss]

You might want to track down a novel, 'Villains by Necessity'. Its generic D&D influenced fantasy fare, but it deals with something similar to the stuff you're on about. Basically, Good has won, and as a result, the world is tipping into what might as well be the Positive Energy Plane, and is pretty much going to be destroyed and everyone is going to die. Enter the party- one of the last thieves, a druid (I did mention it was generic and D&D inspired, right?), and some other folk, who have to disrupt things and save the world before pure Goodness obliterates everything.

I'm vaguely certain there is a gate or portal or something involved.

[CalibronXXX]

I think I read that book. A thief, an assassin, an evil sorceress, the last druid, and a black knight with his armor welded shut.

[Captain_Bleach]

What I want to know if by D&D/BoED RAW, would the Pelorian Drug Cartel be considered to be doing "Good" by channeling Positive Energy and using it to "destroy/purify" the world?
Also, knowing the "Good" deities of D&D, how would they react to such a devastating agenda, especially Pelor?

[Voss]

By the RAW you get an Out of Cheese Error/Redo from Start message.
Positive Energy = Good, Drugs = Evil (By the book of exalted furries). Things that are both Good and Evil simultaneously are too complex, and the universe implodes.

By common sense, the idea is both stupid and lame.

As for Pelor and company... eh. If it gets them more souls, they'll probably be for it. Otherwise they won't care, and since being killed by PE doesn't make the target Good in any way (and isn't Good in any way, except the books occasionally say it is for no apparent reason), I doubt they'd care.

[Captain_Bleach]

1196047245[/unixtime]]
By common sense, the idea is both stupid and lame.

If by idea, you mean the cult's agenda, keep in mind that cults are rarely rational. If by the idea, you mean my campaign "villain," you are entitled to your opinion. However, it still leaves open a big can of worms, as alignment apologists the world over will be labeling the cult "good" or "evil," and if said opinions congregated on a single message board/chat room, it will most assuredly cause a shit-storm. Who is to say that the campaign world is not full of clerics "healing" their foes until they die from it? As using Positive Energy is not only justified, but exalted and righteous, it prevents the sticky issue of killing P.O.W.S., defenseless Evil people, and orc babies the old-fashioned way, which is a gray matter in alignment in many DM's campaigns, and the actual alignment of the Multiverse. As using Positive Energy to kill is not frowned upon by the game mechanics, why are smart and wise Clerics of good deities not exploiting this moral loophole? Religious leaders exploit moral loopholes all the time, so why should it be different in the world of D&D?

[Captain_Bleach]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specia ... Quote]Even if a cleric is neutral, channeling positive energy is a good act and channeling negative energy is evil.[/Quote]
Found it.

[Catharz]

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions?

[Captain_Bleach]

1196056075[/unixtime]]The road to Hell is paved with good intentions?

If that is a question, then it depends on the person/religion.
If it involves my villainous organization, then you are implying that they are of Evil alignment. This would blow a massive loophole/continuity error in the Multiverse, if Alignment worked by the RAW. How none of the Outsiders, Deities, and game designers seem to be aware of this is beyond me.

[Voss]

Alright. Many, many things wrong with this. First, you actually care what people on message boards and 'alignment apologists' think. Why do you care? If it works for your game use it. Its not a fucking popularity contest.

Second, you've got the odd notion that D&D morality is somehow valid, thought-out, and people like Jonathan Tweet spent years as professional moral philosophers rather than an hour writing up some bullshit summaries. Either ignore it or treat it as a rough guide, but treating it like its serious shit makes as much sense as wandering into the white house and announcing to the security folks that you're going to kill El Presidente.

And now for the nitpicking...

1196055552[/unixtime]]

1196047245[/unixtime]]
By common sense, the idea is both stupid and lame.

If by idea, you mean the cult's agenda, keep in mind that cults are rarely rational. If by the idea, you mean my campaign "villain," you are entitled to your opinion.

No, I just means its stupid and lame. Its the old 'open to the gate to the netherworld' crap thats so tired and played out in the genre, except the polarity is reversed. What a twist!

However, it still leaves open a big can of worms, as alignment apologists the world over will be labeling the cult "good" or "evil," and if said opinions congregated on a single message board/chat room, it will most assuredly cause a shit-storm.

Again, who cares? Does the internet shit storm add something to your game? If a bear craps in the woods, does it end up on your table?

Who is to say that the campaign world is not full of clerics "healing" their foes until they die from it?

Positive Energy =/= healing. There is some bizarre overlap in places, but healing spells don't do positive energy 'damage' to living creatures. So you can't actually heal someone until they die from it. You can do damage with positive energy, but it works in much the same way as a made-up bio-electricity amplifier: take the body's natural electrical field and turn it up to 11 until they fry.

As using Positive Energy is not only justified, but exalted and righteous, it prevents the sticky issue of killing P.O.W.S., defenseless Evil people, and orc babies the old-fashioned way, which is a gray matter in alignment in many DM's campaigns, and the actual alignment of the Multiverse. As using Positive Energy to kill is not frowned upon by the game mechanics, why are smart and wise Clerics of good deities not exploiting this moral loophole? Religious leaders exploit moral loopholes all the time, so why should it be different in the world of D&D?

One, because killing Evil isn't a grey area in D&D- there really isn't a moral loophole here. Two, it kills Good people just as easily, and thats where it actually gets stupid. Bob the Pelorite could have a Firehose of Positive Energy, which does positive energy damage to people until their heads explode. Hurrah. Now. He could stick his firehose in a Solar ass until its head explodes, and now the RAW has a problem. He just did something Good (used positive energy, according to the crap you're quoting) and not Good (exploded a living, breathing icon of pure Goodness).

Now, you can handle this in two ways. One, you can bury your head in your ass, and say using Positive Energy is always Good! Go Bob, farm those Solars for XP! You're fine- they can't even retaliate because you're doing Good!' Alternately, you can go with common sense, and say 'Bob, you just killed an exemplar of pure Goodness. Screw positive energy and this badly written, poorly thought out rule, you did a bad thing, and must pay the penalty'. Now, you can swap in POWs, orc babies, or whatever for the Solar, but really... unless you want to mindlessly follow the RAW for the sake of... mindlessly following it? Really, you aren't getting any gain in fun, balance, RP, or anything else. I don't see the point.

As for what designers are aware of... this is the shit they really don't care about. If one person on the internet decides to try break their game with this... well, so what? Its like worrying about a kid papercutting himself to death with the pages of a WotC-published book. Possible, but so unlikely that it isn't worth wasting time thinking about it. And no one is going to miss that little smart ass anyway.

[Captain_Bleach]

Don't take my ideas seriously. Just shake your head and move on. Trying to reason with my odd ideals of rules is only doomed to failure. This idea is not really an adventure/campaign climax thing that I am going to use, but rather a joke.

Alright. Many, many things wrong with this. First, you actually care what people on message boards and 'alignment apologists' think. Why do you care? If it works for your game use it. Its not a fucking popularity contest.

If I didn't care, I wouldn't bother posting here at all.

Again, who cares? Does the internet shit storm add something to your game? If a bear craps in the woods, does it end up on your table?

No, I just like causing random chaos.

Really, you aren't getting any gain in fun, balance, RP, or anything else. I don't see the point.

I also don't see the point in bad-mouthing someone with inferior rules knowledge in an effort to make them go "Oh my god, I am so wrong!" Let's face it; I know that my whole idea is a joke, but who is the bigger fool? One who comes up with a stupid, or one who takes the ideas of a fool seriously?

The Correct Answer:

Both

[Voss]

Ah. The 'Just Trolling' cop-out.
Classy.

[Captain_Bleach]

1196060446[/unixtime]]Ah. The 'Just Trolling' cop-out.
Classy.

As though swearing is any more classy, or any less Troll-like.

[Voss]

Aw, did I hurt your feelings? Seriously, you need to get over this thin skin thing you've got. A few 'bad words' isn't trolling, no matter how defensive your feeling.

Fine, though, I won't offer any more helpful advice.

[Captain_Bleach]

1196108021[/unixtime]]Aw, did I hurt your feelings? Seriously, you need to get over this thin skin thing you've got. A few 'bad words' isn't trolling, no matter how defensive your feeling.

Fine, though, I won't offer any more helpful advice.

You didn't hurt my feelings, in fact, I don't really care about anything you say that involves gratuitous usage of name-calling, because you are no better than me, or any of those WotC forum-goers. You just happen to be rules-savvy, but that does not make you better at the most important part of RPGs; social interaction.
I do not have to prove that I am right, I just have to prove that you are wrong.
Besides, an Internet Troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an on-line community such as an on-line discussion forum or group with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response.
Both of us fit this criteria, so don't delude yourself into thinking that likening me to a little kid who paper-cut himself to death that nobody is going to miss is somehow not trolling.

[Voss]

Meh. Now I do want to bait you, because you're becoming amusing.
I would think that you'd be used to aggressive posting styles by now, and not go out of your way to be offended by them.

Ah well, I've work to do, and I doubt this will match the incident on another forum where I got a guy to cry about child abuse. Good times...

[Captain_Bleach]

1196058488[/unixtime]]
As for what designers are aware of... this is the shit they really don't care about. If one person on the internet decides to try break their game with this... well, so what?

So why do you guys get pissed off at WotC when you guys find some rules loophole that breaks the game, and WotC does not even address the rule? Hell, why bother even posting about how much you hate WotC? You expect them to not care about the above example, but when it's one of your examples, you guys complain?
The answer: Arrogance. Simply put, you assume with your superior rules knowledge, that your opinions matter, and that anyone with a more limited understanding is beneath your notice, and that only you have a way of making the game balanced/work.

[Captain_Bleach]

1196109577[/unixtime]]...by now, and not go out of your way to be offended by them.

Yet you become offended when WotC or d20 designers overlook a rules loophole, because in reality, when it comes to the folly of game designers, you too have thin skin. You hold them up to a high standard, and cannot abide by rules loopholes that make you break the game.
In short, we are not different at all.

[Voss]

1196109605[/unixtime]]
So why do you guys get pissed off at WotC when you guys find some rules loophole that breaks the game, and WotC does not even address the rule? Hell, why bother even posting about how much you hate WotC? You expect them to not care about the above example, but when it's one of your examples, you guys complain?

The answer: I don't, I don't, and its D&D morality. Its inherently stupid, broken and busted. Its also entirely subjective, so its not something you can fix with a rules fix. Mechanical stuff is worth discussing, because something can actually be done about that. This is just fluff crap thats going to be handled differently from game to game anyway, according to how the DM feels about alignments. A 'rules fix' would be as relevant as a 'rules fix' for how to roll dice.


And don't mistake posting style for thin skin and anger.

[Captain_Bleach]

1196110002[/unixtime]]

1196109605[/unixtime]]
So why do you guys get pissed off at WotC when you guys find some rules loophole that breaks the game, and WotC does not even address the rule? Hell, why bother even posting about how much you hate WotC? You expect them to not care about the above example, but when it's one of your examples, you guys complain?

The answer: I don't, I don't, and its D&D morality. Its inherently stupid, broken and busted. Its also entirely subjective, so its not something you can fix with a rules fix. Mechanical stuff is worth discussing, because something can actually be done about that. This is just fluff crap thats going to be handled differently from game to game anyway, according to how the DM feels about alignments. A 'rules fix' would be as relevant as a 'rules fix' for how to roll dice.


And don't mistake posting style for thin skin and anger.

So how do you know that this is just my posting style? How do you know whether I really get offended or not?

[Judging__Eagle]

I'm offended reading this thread.

You're both being silly for different reasons and this thread is really going nowhere.

You've been able to use Positive energy a damage type; so using it isn't inherently good, since it's not actually "channelling positive energy."

The only instance that I can think of that has the term "channelling Positive Energy" is turning undead.

Unless... you turn a LG Swordwraith Paladin and powder him...

[Captain_Bleach]

1196111273[/unixtime]]I'm offended reading this thread.

You're both being silly for different reasons and this thread is really going nowhere.

Did you expect a joke idea based off of alignment to have internal consistency?