Frank / K Mephit

[Koumei]

[TGFBS]

I have not clue one as to how this ended up in the Threads thread, but it has now been split off into its own topic.

[/TGFBS]

A question for the people here, though I suppose specifically Frank, seeing as he had such an easy time looking at monsters and saying "This comes into play at level X".

Okay, a Mephit is a level 4 thing to play, and has 3 HD. At 7 HD, it is Medium. What level would you call this? Level 8 (each extra Outsider HD adding one level), or would the "I can't believe it's not Level Adjustment" get eaten up? Or would it be reduced even further due to the only class feature being "Grow"?

Or would it be better to just add four levels of True Fiend, call it True Mephit, remove all of the Fiend-specific stuff (subtype etc.) and add "Medium" as the level 4 ability, thus meaning "You increase by 4 levels, so you're level 8 with 7 HD, but you get a Sphere." ?

[Crissa]

Becoming 'Medium' from 'Small' is not a bonus.

-Crissa

[Koumei]

Actually... I have no idea either. I keep a lot of tabs open at once, so I probably got confused. Put it down to "Haha, Koumei is a moron!"
I will

Anyway, it all depends, Crissa. For instance, the Earth and Salt mephits would get a massive hard-on from it. They lose Dex and AC/attack, and gain MOAR STRENGTH, as well as better weapon damage and grappling. For Water and Ooze, it's a wash (that... was terrible), and Steam, Fire, Magma etc. get shafted.

Heck, Earth benefits even more, because now they become Large once per hour. Now let them take levels of True Fiend and become Large, then Huge, and they can grow to Gargantuan on an hourly basis. That's pretty cool.

Basically, I'm playing a 1-on-1 game where the DM said "Yeah, level 15 sounds good (including the racial levels)", and let me distribute some extra ability points because I chose Steam, and they're seriously not as good as Salt or Earth. But he'd rather I be Medium and I don't really mind either way. So I thought "Mephit X/Conduit 15-X" (where X equals whatever level a 7HD Mephit counts as). In this case, Medium doesn't do much for me either way. Mostly it just means it's easier to go around befriending Primers and turning them into my minions, as well as bossing other Mephits around.

[Catharz]

For ease of use, I'd just call a 7 HD steam mephit a 'level 7 mephit'. You might be better off just taking the size feat though.

[Crissa]

Gaining more strength is a bonus.

It is also unrelated to changing size, mechanically. It is a bonus they also get when they change size.

-Crissa

[JonSetanta]

Size Medium means that not only can they use equipment most other races are using (Medium is 'standard' in most settings), they can also reach the cookie jar and sit in a pub without using a booster seat.

[tzor]

1196142764[/unixtime]]Becoming 'Medium' from 'Small' is not a bonus.

Of course it is. Do you know how many rides have that sign "you must be this tall to enter?"

And it's tough being too short for the adult's urinal.

But you're right in there is no game bonus to it.

[Username17]

Mephits were never really written to advance at all - they are intended as Imps. And Imps are not thematically expected to be major heroes or villains (thugh there is no reason that they couldn't be). So the fact that the advancment rules for Mephits don't make a lick of sense isn't surprising.

The Steam Mephit in particular suffers from a number of limitations. The most obvious is that their abilities don't really do anything. You get:

• Summon Mephit once per day. This is a 2nd level spell which is as good as a 3rd or 4th level spell once every four times you cast it and completely worthless otherwise. Fortunately you cast it between combats because of its long duration.
  
  
• Blur Once per hour. blur is frankly a kind of shit spell. And this version is self-only. 3 minutes every hour is something you "may as well" put up just before you break into the enemy base, but it's not soemthing you'll do in combat ever.
  
  
• Scald Storm Once per day. This spell is shit. 2d6 of damage? What the hell man, what the hell? It's listed at 2nd level, but I'd per personally insulted to get it as a 1st level spell once I'd hit 3rd level myself.
  
  
• Breath Weapon Basically twice per combat. The damage is meaningless even at the level you get it. But the penalties stack with whatever you happen to be doing. If it had a vaguely decent Save DC (which it does not) it would be a decent fall-back position for someone who was primarily adding to combat by flanking with the Rogue.
  
  
• Unlimited Downtime Healing. Seriously. 20 HP per minute you spend making coffee. If you are adventuring in Chult you don't even have to make coffee.

So um... yeah. None of that shit scales. Even the unlimited healing doesn't scale and eventually takes long enough to heal you that you care. I mean, what you actually do is spend most of your time using martial weapons as a small flyer with no strength penalty. That's basically the position of the True Fiend and I would play one like that.

You get good weapon proficiencies, great saves, great skill points, some afterthough spellcasting that doesn't stack well with anything, and you have a distinct lack of class features that would allow you to meaningfully go on the offense against anything. A 7th level Medium Steam Mephit character is probably going to have seven skills with 10 ranks, and is going to be running with decent armor and weapons (as befits a 7th level PC with no ASF and Martial Weapon Proficiency). But seriously, so what? They can use two claw attacks for 2d4 + 2 each (or so), or shoot a bow twice for a d8 +4 (or so). But um... that's totally asstastic. They are going to take like 12 turns to chop their way through a Sphynx and they will not survive that long.

I mean the obvious thing to do would be to make a True Genie that was kind of like True Fiend and just start advancing it right off. Honestly, I don't see anything on the Steam Mephit that warrants them being more than 3rd level in the first place. Sure in abstract getting 3 hit dice of all good saves, full BAB, Rogue Skills, and 3 second level spells on tap sounds great. Maybe even broken. But the 2nd level spells you actually get are shit (with the exception of Summon Mephit). If someone agreed to play a character of 6th level or higher, I'd give them their CR 3 Mephitness for 3 levels. At specifically 3rd level they would be kind of overpowered just as a flying archer with a crossbow and a breath weapon. But at higher levels all of their mephit powers just look like "This is another ability which is also not a level appropriate attack."

Genie
"Who controls the past, controls the future. Who controls the wishes, controls the past."

Djinn, Efreet, Marid, Dao… these are the names that inspire terror and greed throughout the planes, and with good reason. These Genies are far more powerful than the other denizens of the Elemental Sultanates, and it is for this reason that they rule them. They control the wishes, and for many they may as well control the universe.

The Genies are universally accomplished, but this doesn't make them more powerful at any particular level than any other character. Indeed, level is a measure of power. The most powerful denizens of the Elemental Planes are Genies and higher level than mere elementals. The Genie advances in everything all at once, and thus gains new abilities relatively slowly compared to what other, more focused Outsider progressions are capable of.

Alignment: While the Elemental Planes are Neutral, the denizens often are not. Genies can be of any alignment and often are.

Races: The Genie is only available to Outsiders with a plane of origin in the Elemental Planes. Creatures from the prime material plane whose ancestors were from an Elemental Plane may take this class, but they must have the Outsider type.

Starting Gold: 6d6x10 gp (210 gold)

Starting Age: Since a Genie is immortal and never ages, a character may claim any starting age she wishes.

Hit Die: d8
Class Skills: The Genie's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int, Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (-), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (-), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skills/Level: 8 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Good (as Fighter), Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Good; Will: Good

Level, Benefit
1 Immortality, Planar Traits
2 Telepathy, Lesser Genie Powers
3 Genie Powers
4 Sphere
5 Greater Planar Traits
6
7 Greater Genie Powers
8 Sphere
9 Summon
10
11 Grant Wishes
12 Sphere
13 Damage Reduction
14 Awesome Planar Traits
15 Greater Summoning
16 Sphere
17 Elemental Power
18 Gate
19 Epic Damage Reduction
20 Sphere

All of the following are Class Features of the Genie class:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Genies are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as the whip, the net, and the lajatang. Genies are proficient with light armor but not with shields of any kind.

Immortality (Ex): Ageless as the earth and endless as the sky, the True Genie never ages and retains a youthful appearance unto a thousand thousand generations.

Planar Traits: A Genie is a member of one of the iconic aristocracies of the Elemental Conflux. Starting at first level she may travel on any elemental plane without suffering the baleful effects of those extreme environments, in addition she gains access to the distinctive abilities of her race, as befits her plane of origin:

• 
  
• Fire : Efreet Traits:
  Heat (Ex): Any time an Efreet hits an opponent with a melee attack or she is struck with a natural weapon she inflicts her Constitution Modifier in Fire Damage in addition to whatever else she does. This ability may be suppressed as a standard action and resumed as a Swift action.
  Immunity to Fire: An Efreet takes no damage from fire of any kind.
  
• Air : Djinn Traits:
  Air Mastery (Ex): airborne creatures suffer a -1 penalty to attack and damage rolls against a djinn.
  Immunity to Acid: A Djinn takes no damage from Acid of any kind.
  
• Water : Marid Traits:
  Water Mastery: A marid gains a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls against opponents touching water.
  Water Breathing (Ex): A Marid benefits as per water breathing, but non-magical and all the time.
  Immunity to Cold: A Marid takes no damage from cold of any kind.
  
• Earth : Dao Traits:
  Earth Mastery (Ex): A Dao recieves a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls if both it and its opponent are touching the ground.
  Immunity to lectricity (Ex): A Dao takes no damage from electricity of any kind.
  

Telepathy (Su): At 2nd level, a Genie gains the ability to communicate telepathically with any creature that speaks a language within 100 feet.

Genie Powers (Sp): At 2nd level, a Genie may cast create food and water once per day. At 3rd level, the Genie can planeshift at will. The only planes which can be accessed in this manner are the Elemental planes and the prime material. Only willing creatures may be transported. At 7th level, a Genie may cast major creation 3 times a day. Any objects created which last more than 12 hours are permanent.

Sphere: The Genie gains basic access to a sphere at 4th level, and gains a new sphere at every fourth level afterwards. If the Genie selects a sphere that she already has basic access to, she upgrades it to advanced access. If she already had advanced access, she gains expert access.

Greater Planar Traits: A Genie of 5th level or more gains access to more of the distinctive abilities of her race, as befits her plane of origin:

• 
  
• Fire : Efreet Traits:
  Size Changing (Sp): An efreet can change a creature's size up or down one size category for an hour, and can do this twice per day. This can be used offensively, and the save DC is Charisma based. This is a 2nd level spell.
  Start Fires (Su): An Efreet can set anything she can see on fire as a standard action.
  
• Air : Djinn Traits:
  Whirlwind (Ex): A Djinn can assume the form of a whirlwind, as described in the Air Elemental description.
  Gust of Wind (Sp): A Djinn can use gust of wind at will.
  
• water : Marid Traits:
  Drench (Ex): A Marid can extinguish normal or magical fires with a touch. This always works.
  Resistances: A Marid has Sonic, Fire, and Acid Resistance 10.
  
• Earth : Dao Traits:
  Earth Glide: At 5th level, a Dao is able to move through solid stone as if it were open space. She may take any non-living objects she can carry with her.
  

Summon (Sp): At 9th level, a Genie can attempt to summon vassals and others of its kind (for example: a Djinn could summon other denizens of the planesAir). Summoning another creature of the same character level has a 40% chance of success, and summoning a Fiend of a lower level increases the chances of success by 10% for every level the summoner's level exceeds the CR of the target.

Grant Wishes (Sp): At 11th level, a Genie bcomes a steward of the wish economy. She may grant up to three mortal wishes each day. Doing so takes a few minutes to word the wish properly and any costs are paid by the recipient (remember that many wishes do not have a special cost).

Damage Reduction (Su): A 13th level Genie has Damage Reduction of Level/Adamantine. At 19th level this becomes DR of Level/Epic.

Awesome Planar Traits: A Genie of 14th level or more gains access to more of the distinctive abilities of her race, as befits her plane of origin:

• 
  
• Fire : Efreet Traits:
  Firestorm (Sp): An efreet can use firestorm at will.
  
• Air : Djinn Traits:
  Telekinesis (Sp): A Djinn can use telekinesis at will.
  
• Water : Marid Traits:
  Acid Fog: A Marid may use acid fog once per hour.
  
• Earth : Dao Traits:
  Transmute Rock and Mud: A Dao can use transmute rock to mud and transmute mud to rock at will.
  

Greater Summoning: A Genie of 15th level may attempt to use her summon power to summon a fiend of a level higher than her own, though doing so carries only a 30% chance of success.

Elemental Power: The powers of the lower planes are awesome to behold. At 17th level, the True Fiend gains a +10 bonus to defeating Spell Resistance with the spell-like abilities granted by her spheres.

Gate (Sp): At 18th level, a Genie can open a gate (transport version) whenever she wants.

-Username17

[Koumei]

Oh, I'm not surprised that they don't scale well. I don't expect everything in existence to appear playable from the box.

And as for Medium, I may as well be honest. It's on Elliquiy, so could possibly end up being an Adult game. Might not, too, but just on the chance it does, both DM and I are more comfortable with an adult-sized character.

Hmm, Genie looks like a good class for advancing hit dice. Thanks, Frank, you can make classes appear in an instant, and they're still better balanced than what WotC take months working on.

[Catharz]

Are you seriously saying that Dao are grounded at first level?

Also based on "plane of origin" do you think it would be reasonable to let a steam mephit take Ifrit traits at first level, Djin traits at 5th, and Marid at 14th?

[Voss]

Its kind of swapping the 'traditional' 3.5 ways of handling air/earth subtypes and electricity/acid resistances, but it isn't any less arbitrary.

I rather like it actually, though the Fiendish Spheres aren't necessarily appropriate, thematically. I rather like the thought of playing a Dao in a certain type of campaign.

[Username17]

Interesting note: Djinn are totally just immune to Acid. That's not a considered sleight of hand or anything, that's just an extrapolation of standard rules. They just do that right out of the Monster Manual.

And yeah, if you're related to the Janni, you would get to pick. And no, there's no game balance problems with a Steam Mephit picking Fire and Water heritage bonuses alternately.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

So, we'll eventually end up with a generic racial class for each Outsider "category"?
Would one for Quasit, Imp and Mephit be fine if called something like "Tiny Winged Fiend" class, and then pick elements/abilities from there?
Or, as I'm hoping for, could something even more generic be applied to all small flying humanoid spirit things, including Sprites and Cherubs.

[Maxus]

Are cherubs even listed in Dnd?

And, anyway, aren't we coming up on the need for some good-aligned Spheres?

An anti-Imp breaking out stuff from the Bone and Carnage spheres...Well, that's just not something you want to see.

[JonSetanta]

No, but they SHOULD BE!
Closest thing is a Lantern Archon with house-ruled appearance as a small flyin baby.

[Voss]

Or one of those stupid Imps from the Fiend Folio with a different skin and a more pink and fluffy bunnies power set.

[Leress]

Anger of Angels has Cherubs in it. Mind you it was written by Sean K Reynolds.

It has an the following stats...
Medium Size
land speed 40ft, fly 40ft (average)
Extraplanar Subtype
Good Subtype
Outsider Skillpoints (7x[8+int])
+4 to Listen, Move silently, Search, and Spot
+2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int
4 Outsider Hit Dice
Natural Armor +5
DR 5/Magic
Acid,cold, and sonic resistance 5
Claws: 2 claw attacks that deal 1d4 points of slashing
Improved grab
Rake
Roar: 1/day 30ft cone, will save (12+cha mod) or be shaken for 1d6 rounds
Spell-like abilities, at will-comprehend languages, detect evil, detect undead, light, magic fang (self only) read magic; 1/day see invisibility, shield other,. Caster level 4th, DC 10+cha mod+ spell level
Heaven born: tongues always active, immune to electricity and pertrification, +4 racial bonus to Fort save versus poison, low light vision, darkvision 60ft
Automatic language: Celestial
Favored class: Cherub
Level Adjustment: 7

*If this is against the rule of the site I will take it down.

[Voss]

Medium sized cherubim?
Grab and rake? Weird.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Yeah, those don't seem to conform to either classical or original cherubim. Classical are the winged infants used after the Rennaissance. Original are most often depicted as four faces (Lion, Bull, Man, Eagle) at the juncture of four feathered eye-covered wings. Neither of those has claws. The only thing I can think of is the In Nomine cherubim, which were just animals in their spirit forms IIRC.

Is there any descriptive to go with those stats?

[Captain_Bleach]

In case you didn't notice, baby angels are destructive killing machines.

[Leress]

1196301073[/unixtime]]Yeah, those don't seem to conform to either classical or original cherubim. Classical are the winged infants used after the Rennaissance. Original are most often depicted as four faces (Lion, Bull, Man, Eagle) at the juncture of four feathered eye-covered wings. Neither of those has claws. The only thing I can think of is the In Nomine cherubim, which were just animals in their spirit forms IIRC.

Is there any descriptive to go with those stats?

Here it is...
Cherubim
The Guardians
Cherubim are Heaven’s sentinels, sharp-minded and vigilant. They are known for their ability to notice things that do not belong, and
their many duties include watching over heaven’s pathways and
destroying demons whose efforts would overthrow the natural
order in the world. Cherubim are symbols of nobility and strength,
just like the lions they resemble.
The singular form of cherubim is cherub. An informal plural,
“cherubs,” is in common use.
Personality: Cherubim are patient, observant, and protective.
They think nothing of standing in one place for eight hours,
unmoving, making sure that what they guard remains undisturbed.
When not working, they enjoy polite conversation, studying old
lore, and long runs in the open air. Cherubim are wary of strangers
except angels known to serve the same cause as they do, and they
despise oathbreakers and those who shirk their accepted duties. It
is said that the first cherubim arose from the tears the archangel
Michael shed over the sins of the faithful, and the cherubim do not
dispute this origin. Cherubim in humanoid shape prefer tall, noble
forms with an aura of strength and quiet menace. They’re often
mistaken for monks or paladins, depending upon their garb.
Physical Description: Cherubim are leonine creatures with
humanlike faces (some more so than others) and small wings. Their
front paws function as well as human hands. Their manes may be
long, short, or absent, and any color, including some that do not
appear in nature (such as fiery red, starlight blue, or moonlight
white). Some cherubim are lean, dark, and pantherlike, and a few very
old ones resemble bulls rather than lions. When readied for battle,
cherubim sometimes wear armor, but most don at most a shoulder
harness to hold a few key items. They are not averse to using necklaces,
bracers, or similar items that suit their form and complement
their coloration. Cherubim, like most angels, are immortal, not dying
except through violence. When slain, a cherub’s body runs like molten
gold, eventually leaving behind only a single braid of golden hair.
Cherubim are sometimes depicted as plump, winged children,
but they insist that such images are either a mistake on the part of
the artist or the result of a deliberate deception by fiends intent on
embarrassing them.
Relations: Cherubim prefer to listen rather than talk, and are
patient enough to sit through the most rambling story. These traits
endear them to dwarves, who would rather work in silence than chat,
and gnomes, who tell long yarns. Cherubim’s dedication to duty gains
them the respect of elves, though their staid nature is contrary to the
more free-willed elven or halfling personality. When disguised in mortal
society, cherubim are guardians, stewards, or officers of the law.
Alignment: Cherubim are always good. Because their sense of
loyalty and duty runs strong, most are lawful, but some can get creative
in interpreting their orders. As even the most chaotic benign
deities have things or people that need protection, a few chaotic
cherubim do roam the planes.
Religion: Cherubim serve whatever deity or archangel created
them, although the happiest are those who serve powers of protection,
vigilance, and guardianship. They rarely change whom they
serve, although sometimes they are lent to their patron’s allied or
subservient deities. Few free cherubim exist, as they are more comfortable
within a known hierarchy.
Language: Cherubim speak Celestial. Like most angels, they can
communicate as if using a tongues spell. From frequent encounters
with fiends of different kinds (usually fiendish attempts to enter a
site the cherubim guard), they also know a few key words in Abyssal
and Infernal, mostly threats and suggestions as to where an
unwanted visitor should put foreign objects.
Names: Cherubim are most often named for protection,
guardianship, wisdom, and great cats in their creator’s favored language,
followed by a suffix indicating “of god.” Examples are
Barachel (“that bows before God”), Belshazzar (“master of the
treasure”), Chephirah (“little lioness”), Engannim (“protection”),
Er (“watchman”), Ishmerai (“keeper”), Laish (“lion”), Nimrah
(“leopard”), Samaria (“watcher on the mountain”), Sharezer
(“overseer of the treasury”), and Shemer (“guardian”).
Adventurers: Cherub adventurers prefer duties relating to
guardianship, such as protecting a village, caravan, or important
person. They accept hunting down threats to their charges as part
of their protective duties. They gain status among their peers by
great feats performed while on duty, such as single-handedly holding
off a force of demons while a ceremony of consecration is being
performed or spending an extremely long time at a particular post.

*sorry for the wall of text

[JonSetanta]

Google turns up different results for cherub and cherubim. I realize the difference, though...

Cherub: babies
Cherubim: four headed freaks

[angelfromanotherpin]

1196301835[/unixtime]]Google turns up different results for cherub and cherubim. I realize the difference, though...

Cherub: babies
Cherubim: four headed freaks

Cherub is just the singular for Cherubim, like Seraph for Seraphim.

And I only in the last few minutes learned that the winged babies are actually putto, the depiction of innocent souls. It's not clear how the two became confused.

Leress, I have no idea where that description comes from. Mind you, the four-faced/four-winged description is just the Christian interpretation, so they may have found a Jewish or Muslim source that describes them differently. My theory is that the Christian one was too weird to be a PC, and playing angels is a big part of Anger of Angels, so they made the Cherubim look less like a hashish-induced vision. Which is a shame.

edit: I found a few references to 'The Minor Sphinxes or Cherubim' described as 'Sed-Alap or Kirub, a bull with a human face; Lamas or Nigal, a lion with a man's head; Ustar, a human; and Nattig, an eagle with a human face.' No sourcing or sanity, though. Something about 'four corner sockets in the pyramid of Giza.' Still, that does seem to fit the description.

[Jacob_Orlove]

Actually, that whole four-faced thing does go back to really old jewish mysticism (Merkabah, the Chariot). It's based on a vision by Ezekiel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkabah

[JonSetanta]

Yeah that was the name. I've only heard it, and figured "pooty" was a slang term or something, so neglected to write it.
Pooty.. putti.. very familiar.

So putti/putto it is then, hm. Guess I'll use that word from now on! haha
Seems to be an Italian Renaissance invention, as they don't exist in kabbalah.