Complete Scoundrel's Grey Guard

[Captain_Bleach]

I have seen many a thread on Wizards and Giant ITP about the Grey Guard, and the discussion thereof was less than pleasant, by their message board standards. By our standards, it would probably be "run-of-the-mill."
Basically, the reason that it seems so maligned is that it allows free atonements, and at higher levels, you don't have to remain Lawful Good to keep your powers. And as though the whole "Paladin" scheme wasn't complicated enough, the Grey Guard just spits in the Code's face saying "I can do whatever I want, Ends Justify Means for Greater Good!"
Now, I may or may not be correct in this assumption, but I would like to hear from you guys on this controversial prestige class.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I think it wouldn't be so bad if WotC would decide on how to define alignment and stick with it.

Granted, we could still take it apart and show that their definition of good and evil is retarded, but at least it would be consistent.

To be honest, I feel that "good" and "evil" are such complex subjects, that I don't really worry about it. Works for my group anyway.

[Username17]

The biggest problem is that it gives out leniency in following your stupid code instead of giving real abilities. So since you could have gotten basically equivalent power and a very equivalent schtick by just being a Ranger, it ends up being a very sucky prestige class.

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Of course, the very idea of being "not good" in order to pursue the "greater good" exposes the bare underbelly of the fact that alignment doesn't make any sense. After all, the argument for beating orcs to death with a sharpened rod of steel is that you are doing "good" in the larger sense by preventing them from doing more "evil." But of course, you are killing a sapient creature by chopping it up with an inhumane and archaic weapon. Out of context you'd be hard pressed to call those actions "good" or even "not-evil" so Paladins are basically created with the assumption that they can do bad things for the greater good. Indeed, they must do that in order to keep their code.

The Paladin Code isn't generally concerned over much with preventing the Paladins from doing "evil" - most of the requirements are completely arbitrary. So the idea of a character who dedicates himself more explicitly to the big picture and no longer has to concern himself with not telling lies is perfectly feasable. It just isn't worth actual class features.

Edit: I should probably give a specific review.

At first level you get "Sacrament of Trust" and "Lay on Hands" That sounds like two abilities, but actually it's negative two abilities, because you already had Lay on Hands. The ability is just that your Lay on Hands keeps advancing (that is, doesn't fall more behind). But your spellcasting and Paladin Mount don't improve. The sacrament of trust basically doesn't do anything, because all it does is give you free atonements to pay for alignment violations which are "excusable". But since the DM is unlikely to make you need to atone for anything excusable, there's no effect.

At second level you get the level of Paladin casting you would have gotten last level, and your mount still doesn't improve. And you get the ability to give people the sickened condition with a touch attack. This isn't nausea, it's the condition which is less impressive than shaken. It's honestly less useful than Skill Focus: Intimidate.

At third level, you get a Smite, just like you would have gotten anyway had you stayed a Paladin. Also, you don't get a caster level, and your Mount doesn't improve. You don't get an extra Remove Disease (if you care), and yeah... basically it's just a level of "nearly as good as straight paladin"

Then you start getting real abilities, but so slowly that you don't care. Let's consider where you are by the end:

• The Bad:
  
• Casting: Instead of having a caster level of 7 and 1+ fourth level spell(s), you have a caster level of 5 and 1+ second level spell(s).
  
• Mount: Instead of having 8 extra hit dice and Spell Resistance, it has 2 extra hit dice and only the basic powers. Also it shows up for 10 hours instead of 30.
  
• Turn Undead: You turn undead as a 2nd level Cleric instead of as a 12th level Cleric.
  
• Remove Disease: You can't remove disease. A real Paladin could cure the whole party once a week (a lame power, but whatever).
  The Good:
  
• Smites: Instead of Smiting Evil 4times/day, you can Smite anything 4 times a day. Take that, giant ants!
  
• Skills: You get a +5 bonus to Bluff, Intimidate, and Disguise. These skills are also added to your class list.
  
• Code of Conduct: You may be given more clemency by the DM for alignment mishaps. But since "very improper" behavior gets you kicked out of the order and makes you lose the ability to get clemency on alignment mishaps - it's entirely possible that you don't.
  
• Saves: You're technically a multiclassed character, so your saves improve.

-Username17

[Captain_Bleach]

I always thought under D&D alignment, an Assassin sniping a politician in the head would be a less Evil Act than a Paladin beating an orc to death with a serrated sword to loot it's valuables. A high-caliber shot to the head would be painful, but the pain would last for less than a second, as you will be dead.

[MrWaeseL]

Roleplaying concerns should never get in the way of actual rules.

[Interested2]

I feel compelled to point out that although I agree with your thought there, Bleach, under the current D&D rules it's very difficult to one-shot anyone with raw damage unless there is a significant level or optimization discrepancy. In particular, with sneak attack damage being pitiful and limited to a 30ft range, sniping is simply a non-viable tactic for rogue-types. It's not helped by the fact that Assassins can only make death attacks in melee.

[virgil]

It's easy to one-shot lots of people in D&D, and is one of the major aspects of the system; save-or-dies. I'm all for the idea of changing the flavour text of some of the effects to be "head-shots".

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Save-or-die effects (Disintegrate).
Save-or-disabled effects (turn to stone).
Any good charge build.
A solid snipe (it can be done fairly easily if you target something with less than a d10 hit die).

In Frank+K, most characters can one-shot something:
Knight - 'nuff said
Samurai - Kiai!
Assassin - 'nuff said.