In all the years i've played d&d, i've never been a big fan of summon monster spells. And in 3.5, i'm still not.
I just recently joined a new group who handed me a list of their house rules. Pretty much everything was reasonable, but one thing caught my attention. Summoning spells were only 1 Standard Action instead of 1 Round casting time. When asked why, the DM replies "It just seems more balanced." and shrugs.
You know, that ajusted casting time seems to make summon spells so much more attractive, as you can now Quicken them and apply metamagic to them to get them off in a reasonable time.
it's not like summon spells are overpowered or anything -- especially since i never see anyone use them. EVER.
so do all of you think such a house rule would make a wizard summoner a viable candidate for a "high-powered" wizard?
heck, even if you use the summonings to just have your creatures cast spells (at high levels), you get a lot of extra use out of the spells.
thanx!
Fixing Summon Monster spells
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Username17
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Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
All the Summon Monster Spells are also on the Cleric list, where they are essentially just as good. So no matter how good Summon Monster spells get, they will never be part of a high powered Wizard build.
Why? Because you could just be a Cleric instead. Clerics get more spells per day, more hit points, better saves, more spells known, nifty domain abilities, the ability to kill weak Undead creatures without spending spell slots or allowing saves, better attack bonuses, better access to armor, and superior weapon proficiencies.
So if a Cleric can get the same effect out of a spell that a Wizard can, you would be a moron to play a wizard based on that spell when you could have the same power and a couple more slices of pie by being a Cleric instead.
That having been said, the primary problem with Summon Monster is that its duration is so short that it is worthless except as a combat spell for just about anything - coupled with the fact that the creatures it summons are pretty much worthless in combat because they are so weak.
At low levels you are getting a celestial hawk for a round or two. Yuck! That's pointless. With such a weak effect I am not even willing to spend an action on it, let alone a spell slot. Those things are valuable and can contain things like Sleep which might actually turn the tide of battle.
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Why? Because you could just be a Cleric instead. Clerics get more spells per day, more hit points, better saves, more spells known, nifty domain abilities, the ability to kill weak Undead creatures without spending spell slots or allowing saves, better attack bonuses, better access to armor, and superior weapon proficiencies.
So if a Cleric can get the same effect out of a spell that a Wizard can, you would be a moron to play a wizard based on that spell when you could have the same power and a couple more slices of pie by being a Cleric instead.
That having been said, the primary problem with Summon Monster is that its duration is so short that it is worthless except as a combat spell for just about anything - coupled with the fact that the creatures it summons are pretty much worthless in combat because they are so weak.
At low levels you are getting a celestial hawk for a round or two. Yuck! That's pointless. With such a weak effect I am not even willing to spend an action on it, let alone a spell slot. Those things are valuable and can contain things like Sleep which might actually turn the tide of battle.
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Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
Frank Trollman stated: wrote:At low levels you are getting a celestial hawk for a round or two. Yuck! That's pointless. With such a weak effect I am not even willing to spend an action on it, let alone a spell slot. Those things are valuable and can contain things like Sleep which might actually turn the tide of battle.
I don't know of anybody who EVER chose to cast Summon spells at levels 1 through 4. The SM1 & 2 spells suck hard. SM3 turns the corner for a 5th level caster. And if you have the SF:Conj/Aug. Summoning feat combo (I know, not a power play here) with SM3, you can summon a Celestial Bison and kick some royal ass on the battlefield. Much better than other mass-damage spells since the Bison can also protect, interdict, grapple, and help flank if need be.
The Rashemi Elemental Summoning feat basically gives for free all your Air Elementals (and Smoke and Ice paraelementals for that matter) 3 Cone of Colds with spellcaster levels based on their HD. Which is damn good. Imagine a 15th level Druid casting SNA-8 with Rashemi Elemental Summoning.
He can summon 3 Huge Air Elementals (16 HD each) who can each cast 3 Cone of Colds for 15d6 damage ... and then do their thing in normal combat. Meanwhile, while the playing field is flooded with all that cold and ice nonsense, you can be doing other things.
And the beauty of the whole thing is that the Druid who cast this never even had to prepare the spell.
Druid Summoners *RULE*.
Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
Dumbass me stated --- wrote:He can summon 3 Huge Air Elementals (16 HD each) who can each cast 3 Cone of Colds for 15d6 damage
I meant to say, 2-5 Elementals ... not 3.
Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
I looked at this and couldn't resist replying...
Human Wizard (Conjurer), conjurer variant: rapid summons
Get Augment summoning at lvl 1
SM1 - Celestial badgers become a 1 shot nuke that's better than even the barbarians
2 claws +6 melee (1d2+1) and bite +1 melee (1d3+1), add 1 damage if enemy is evil
Get Beckon the Frozen (frostburn) at lvl 3
SM2 - 1d3 celestial badgers that deal extra 1d6 cold on every hit... and they last for 3 rounds!
Take a metamagic feat for your wiz 5
SM3 - you have the bison or the dire badger. Dire badger has rage, good stuff.
Switch to Malconvoker (Complete Scroundrel)
Start summoning fiendish things and give them +2 damage... double duration... extra summon....
At lvl 11, go Master Specialist
Take Rashemi Elemental Summoning (Unapproachable East)
Start blasting with cone of cold or engulfing people
As a side note, SM8 - vrocks have TK at will, caster 12th. With the +2 damage from Malconvoker, that adds up to +24 damage a round! Not to mention cleric buffs or bard song =)
At lvl 20, the Master Specialist 10 ability gives a free quicken 3/day on all conjuration spells that are standard actions. Wait, you took the conjurer variant didn't you? Summon Monster is now a standard action....
Double summons a round, anyone?
Human Wizard (Conjurer), conjurer variant: rapid summons
Get Augment summoning at lvl 1
SM1 - Celestial badgers become a 1 shot nuke that's better than even the barbarians
2 claws +6 melee (1d2+1) and bite +1 melee (1d3+1), add 1 damage if enemy is evil
Get Beckon the Frozen (frostburn) at lvl 3
SM2 - 1d3 celestial badgers that deal extra 1d6 cold on every hit... and they last for 3 rounds!
Take a metamagic feat for your wiz 5
SM3 - you have the bison or the dire badger. Dire badger has rage, good stuff.
Switch to Malconvoker (Complete Scroundrel)
Start summoning fiendish things and give them +2 damage... double duration... extra summon....
At lvl 11, go Master Specialist
Take Rashemi Elemental Summoning (Unapproachable East)
Start blasting with cone of cold or engulfing people
As a side note, SM8 - vrocks have TK at will, caster 12th. With the +2 damage from Malconvoker, that adds up to +24 damage a round! Not to mention cleric buffs or bard song =)
At lvl 20, the Master Specialist 10 ability gives a free quicken 3/day on all conjuration spells that are standard actions. Wait, you took the conjurer variant didn't you? Summon Monster is now a standard action....
Double summons a round, anyone?
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Jacob_Orlove
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Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
Clerics are decent at summoning, but they don't even hold a candle to Druids, who get great monsters at lower levels than anyone else (wolves, hippogriffs, elementals), and access to some crazy good feats, even if you don't count Greenbound Summoning.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
jseah at [unixtime wrote:1202432940[/unixtime]]I looked at this and couldn't resist replying...
Human Wizard (Conjurer), conjurer variant: rapid summons
Get Augment summoning at lvl 1
SM1 - Celestial badgers become a 1 shot nuke that's better than even the barbarians
2 claws +6 melee (1d2+1) and bite +1 melee (1d3+1), add 1 damage if enemy is evil
Get Beckon the Frozen (frostburn) at lvl 3
SM2 - 1d3 celestial badgers that deal extra 1d6 cold on every hit... and they last for 3 rounds!
Take a metamagic feat for your wiz 5
SM3 - you have the bison or the dire badger. Dire badger has rage, good stuff.
Switch to Malconvoker (Complete Scroundrel)
Start summoning fiendish things and give them +2 damage... double duration... extra summon....
At lvl 11, go Master Specialist
Take Rashemi Elemental Summoning (Unapproachable East)
Start blasting with cone of cold or engulfing people
As a side note, SM8 - vrocks have TK at will, caster 12th. With the +2 damage from Malconvoker, that adds up to +24 damage a round! Not to mention cleric buffs or bard song =)
At lvl 20, the Master Specialist 10 ability gives a free quicken 3/day on all conjuration spells that are standard actions. Wait, you took the conjurer variant didn't you? Summon Monster is now a standard action....
Double summons a round, anyone?
Getting a free quicken is actually much better on the good conjuration spells. The ones you don't have to burn class features on.
Malconvoker drops you a caster level.
Rashemi summoning is much better for SNA, which gives elementals of reasonable power.
Finally, a vrock (even with TK at will) is not especially impressive for a 16th level wizard. Imagine if you had just played a Master Specialist conjurer from the get-go and threw down a force cage and an incendiary cloud.
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JonSetanta
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Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
Here's an optional rule:
Make Conjuration (Summoning) spells of a duration either 1 hour per level, 24 hours, or Instant (D).
You would then only have 1 Summon Monster spell active at one time.
Wider area or more breakable spells such as Storm of Vengeance and Trap The Soul would also need the Summoning spell type removed, or perhaps the Summon Monster series given their own spell type similar to what Polymorph has (a subschool?) and then limit the character to only one of those active at once.
But it's true, there's no point in being an Arcane summoner when the Divine summoner does the same thing but better.
They can even heal their summons.
Make Conjuration (Summoning) spells of a duration either 1 hour per level, 24 hours, or Instant (D).
You would then only have 1 Summon Monster spell active at one time.
Wider area or more breakable spells such as Storm of Vengeance and Trap The Soul would also need the Summoning spell type removed, or perhaps the Summon Monster series given their own spell type similar to what Polymorph has (a subschool?) and then limit the character to only one of those active at once.
But it's true, there's no point in being an Arcane summoner when the Divine summoner does the same thing but better.
They can even heal their summons.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
Actually, wizards have a huge summoning advantage over non-neutral clerics. A Good cleric, for instance, can't summon evil creatures, while a Good wizard can and will.
And, personally, I've very rarely seen a neutral cleric.
Summon Monster 1 does suck. SM 2 is occasionally useful, but not great. 3 is where it starts to pick up. an Augmented Hippogriff is pretty good in a less-optimized game.
As for Druids, you really can't compare Druid summoning with Wizard summoning, as they serve entirely different purposes.
Low levels of Summon Nature's Ally are powerful, and much better than SUmmon Monster. The Level Three ones are sort of the breakpoint. At level 4 spells and beyond, wizards begin to come into thier own.
Why? First of all, the celestial and fiendish templates start being worth something -- they're still summoning weaker critters, but at least they have DR. Yeah, the Druid still has critters that are stronger and tougher overal, so the druid wins in pure dps. However, the wizard version becomes a powerful utility spell.
Noe that these tips assume augment summoning and standard-actions summons (available cheaply in UA)
With SM4, you can Summon any mephit. That means that you can pull out glitterdust, soften earth and stone, pyrotechnics, fog cloud, and more if needed. You can also summon multiple Dretches. Each one is capable of putting down a stinking cloud. The DC is low but the area-denial huge. The Lantern Archon mostly sucks but with Aid, typeless damage, teleporting and tongues, can be useful in some situations.
with SM5 you get the achaierai, with an AoE Fort save-or-suck and a decent body (augmnet summoning pumps the DC) The Hound Archon is a teleporting messenger or courier -- it's more spell efficient to have an archon drop something off for you than to use 2 teleports. Also, he can translate any language, and open a door from the other side.
SM 6 brings multple Achaierai (even at eleventh level, an enemy rogue or wizard might not make 2 dc 17 fort saves, and even if they do, they still have to get rid of the birds) A Bralani can blur your whole team, cure 40 hp, and potentially contribute to the fight by throwing up wind walls. Although his Charm Person DC *sucks* who can do it over and over, so if you suddenly find you need to charm a low-level official and don't have the spell prepared, bralani is your man.
SM7?
With at-will dimensional anchor, wall of ice and major image, a bone devil can contribute to some level-13 combats. He's not even trivial to kill.
An augmented avoral can lay on hands for 80 HP, which is a reasonable combat heal. Especially since it sticks around to fight. You can also summon one if a friend gets dominated, as its magic circle will shut him down. It has a 25% chance of counterspelling a level-appropriate enemy, so over a long combat the summoning action pays for itself. With True Seeing and 6-die magic missiles it can call out hidden enemies and pick off fleeing foes.
SM8
A sad level. Lillend's low-level bard spells might eb worth soemthing if your DM lets you pick them. Vrock's have at-will telekinesis, but suck at it. Also, by this point, you can use limited wish to replicate whatever low-level crap you need.
SM 9
A Hezrou, Couatl, and Leonal each have one or two cute tricks, while a flock of avorals could be a poor man's mass heal and then bring a pile of magic missile dice, flying grapples, or toher absurdity. But let's be real here. You aren't going to summon a leonal when you could be gating in a solar or turning yourself into a dragon.
Conclusion: summoning frequently is a viable tactic for a conjurer wizard in levels 7-14
And, personally, I've very rarely seen a neutral cleric.
Summon Monster 1 does suck. SM 2 is occasionally useful, but not great. 3 is where it starts to pick up. an Augmented Hippogriff is pretty good in a less-optimized game.
As for Druids, you really can't compare Druid summoning with Wizard summoning, as they serve entirely different purposes.
Low levels of Summon Nature's Ally are powerful, and much better than SUmmon Monster. The Level Three ones are sort of the breakpoint. At level 4 spells and beyond, wizards begin to come into thier own.
Why? First of all, the celestial and fiendish templates start being worth something -- they're still summoning weaker critters, but at least they have DR. Yeah, the Druid still has critters that are stronger and tougher overal, so the druid wins in pure dps. However, the wizard version becomes a powerful utility spell.
Noe that these tips assume augment summoning and standard-actions summons (available cheaply in UA)
With SM4, you can Summon any mephit. That means that you can pull out glitterdust, soften earth and stone, pyrotechnics, fog cloud, and more if needed. You can also summon multiple Dretches. Each one is capable of putting down a stinking cloud. The DC is low but the area-denial huge. The Lantern Archon mostly sucks but with Aid, typeless damage, teleporting and tongues, can be useful in some situations.
with SM5 you get the achaierai, with an AoE Fort save-or-suck and a decent body (augmnet summoning pumps the DC) The Hound Archon is a teleporting messenger or courier -- it's more spell efficient to have an archon drop something off for you than to use 2 teleports. Also, he can translate any language, and open a door from the other side.
SM 6 brings multple Achaierai (even at eleventh level, an enemy rogue or wizard might not make 2 dc 17 fort saves, and even if they do, they still have to get rid of the birds) A Bralani can blur your whole team, cure 40 hp, and potentially contribute to the fight by throwing up wind walls. Although his Charm Person DC *sucks* who can do it over and over, so if you suddenly find you need to charm a low-level official and don't have the spell prepared, bralani is your man.
SM7?
With at-will dimensional anchor, wall of ice and major image, a bone devil can contribute to some level-13 combats. He's not even trivial to kill.
An augmented avoral can lay on hands for 80 HP, which is a reasonable combat heal. Especially since it sticks around to fight. You can also summon one if a friend gets dominated, as its magic circle will shut him down. It has a 25% chance of counterspelling a level-appropriate enemy, so over a long combat the summoning action pays for itself. With True Seeing and 6-die magic missiles it can call out hidden enemies and pick off fleeing foes.
SM8
A sad level. Lillend's low-level bard spells might eb worth soemthing if your DM lets you pick them. Vrock's have at-will telekinesis, but suck at it. Also, by this point, you can use limited wish to replicate whatever low-level crap you need.
SM 9
A Hezrou, Couatl, and Leonal each have one or two cute tricks, while a flock of avorals could be a poor man's mass heal and then bring a pile of magic missile dice, flying grapples, or toher absurdity. But let's be real here. You aren't going to summon a leonal when you could be gating in a solar or turning yourself into a dragon.
Conclusion: summoning frequently is a viable tactic for a conjurer wizard in levels 7-14
Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
Wacky addendum- SM III good monster is the ever wacky huge fiendish monstrous centipede.
6 hit dice, DR and poison and grapple check from hell Plus decent damage, speed, various resistances and a bit of SR. Oh yeah, and 2 to 3 times the hit points of most of the other critters you can summon, plus augment summoning cranks the poison DC up to 16, and pushes the hit points up to 45. And reach.
The bison isn't a bad alternative, but I think the centipede wins out.
Still, I wonder what crack they were smoking when they wrote these spells. Not only are the creatures wildly out of wack, compared to each other, but its a pain in the ass to find out what they can all do, especially with the damn templates.
6 hit dice, DR and poison and grapple check from hell Plus decent damage, speed, various resistances and a bit of SR. Oh yeah, and 2 to 3 times the hit points of most of the other critters you can summon, plus augment summoning cranks the poison DC up to 16, and pushes the hit points up to 45. And reach.
The bison isn't a bad alternative, but I think the centipede wins out.
Still, I wonder what crack they were smoking when they wrote these spells. Not only are the creatures wildly out of wack, compared to each other, but its a pain in the ass to find out what they can all do, especially with the damn templates.
Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
That summon has more hit points than the Wizard (at level 5, when he can summon it) could possibly have, unless he rolled maximum on every level and also had a Con of 20+ (or 18+ and Improved Toughness. Sure, a few applications of Toughness could also help, but you know what I mean).
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SunTzuWarmaster
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Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
Summoning is for druids.
Franks Summoner class is actually a GOOD summoner, if you have the desire to make one.
I have seen nothing to impress me yet here, 2 claws at +6 for 3 damage? Eh, the barbarian is still better because he actually kills monsters.
Summoning is a viable tactic for wizards under 2 situations:
1 - you are summoning this monster because it has bonus spells. At will teleport is awesome. At will Dispel Magic is cool. Anything that throws down a spell you like casting (glitterdust) and hangs around for a bit is cool.
2 - Grappling. The Huge Monstrous Centipede or whatever that has a huge grapple modifier and pops in right next to the wizard/squishie is useful.
Franks Summoner class is actually a GOOD summoner, if you have the desire to make one.
I have seen nothing to impress me yet here, 2 claws at +6 for 3 damage? Eh, the barbarian is still better because he actually kills monsters.
Summoning is a viable tactic for wizards under 2 situations:
1 - you are summoning this monster because it has bonus spells. At will teleport is awesome. At will Dispel Magic is cool. Anything that throws down a spell you like casting (glitterdust) and hangs around for a bit is cool.
2 - Grappling. The Huge Monstrous Centipede or whatever that has a huge grapple modifier and pops in right next to the wizard/squishie is useful.
Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
Oh, if you summon a dire bat, it can locate invisible enemies...
Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
Summoning hasn't really been juiced much in the last few years. Here are the killer apps:
--Summon Monster I-V aren't used. You use Summon Ice Beast I-V which makes wicked awesome versions of the same monsters, and more kinds of monsters.
-Alienist: You get more summon spells(depending on which version you use), and on top of that they are not Celestial or Fiendish, but Psuedonatural. Thats means they get a True Strike attack rather than a Smite, so the first hit will always hit. Auto-damage has uses.
-Trap catcher. SMI-II are designed to make kobolds to run forward and find traps for you.
-Polymorph matrix: Summon a thing....then Polymorph it into a better thing, then attack!
-Fodder: need a monster to use Vampiric Touch on? Did you find one of the many ways to get a Blood Drain attack and you want to Temp HP boost?
-Wall of Flesh: Crowding a corridor with monsters that need to be killed to get to you is just like getting a few free rounds to prep or cast reactive spells. With the "one big attack monsters", this can jam a whole corridor like a pimp(read the overrun rules carefully).
-Rogue Flanking. Yeh, that rogue is perfectly willing to either flank against a summoned monster for free sneaks OR have the monster waste attacks killing the monsters.
-Weird ability use: Bone devils can fill a room with Walls of Ice and Teleport around for fun, and thats just one monster. Flying Griffons can get you to the top of a cliff, summon a djinn to Appraise your stuff or a babau to pick a lock(with magic to boost its checks)...the list goes on.
--Summon Monster I-V aren't used. You use Summon Ice Beast I-V which makes wicked awesome versions of the same monsters, and more kinds of monsters.
-Alienist: You get more summon spells(depending on which version you use), and on top of that they are not Celestial or Fiendish, but Psuedonatural. Thats means they get a True Strike attack rather than a Smite, so the first hit will always hit. Auto-damage has uses.
-Trap catcher. SMI-II are designed to make kobolds to run forward and find traps for you.
-Polymorph matrix: Summon a thing....then Polymorph it into a better thing, then attack!
-Fodder: need a monster to use Vampiric Touch on? Did you find one of the many ways to get a Blood Drain attack and you want to Temp HP boost?
-Wall of Flesh: Crowding a corridor with monsters that need to be killed to get to you is just like getting a few free rounds to prep or cast reactive spells. With the "one big attack monsters", this can jam a whole corridor like a pimp(read the overrun rules carefully).
-Rogue Flanking. Yeh, that rogue is perfectly willing to either flank against a summoned monster for free sneaks OR have the monster waste attacks killing the monsters.
-Weird ability use: Bone devils can fill a room with Walls of Ice and Teleport around for fun, and thats just one monster. Flying Griffons can get you to the top of a cliff, summon a djinn to Appraise your stuff or a babau to pick a lock(with magic to boost its checks)...the list goes on.
Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
I personally like using the "wall of meat" to distract things or disable traps.
Not to mention the slave labor aspect.
Not to mention the slave labor aspect.
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the_taken
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Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
Less than an hour of "slave labour" a day is not what I would call efficient use of spell slots. Planar Binding for me.
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JonSetanta
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Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
One issue not addressed: using a summon to defend the caster, as in many cartoons and animes.
Either by feat or special spell, once per round a pre-summoned monster could reappear in the caster's space and take a blow as an Immediate action...
Either by feat or special spell, once per round a pre-summoned monster could reappear in the caster's space and take a blow as an Immediate action...
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
Re: Fixing Summon Monster spells
To: CatharzGodfoot earlier quote of my post
Getting a free quicken is actually much better on the good conjuration spells. The ones you don't have to burn class features on.
Imagine if you had just played a Master Specialist conjurer from the get-go and threw down a force cage and an incendiary cloud.
Damage output is not higher than the vrock... and you burn many many spells.
Malconvoker drops you a caster level.
If you're a serious summoner-only wizard, caster level is not much of a worry.
Rashemi summoning is much better for SNA, which gives elementals of reasonable power.
But its still powerful for a wizard. Much better than anything else you can get.
Finally, a vrock (even with TK at will) is not especially impressive for a 16th level wizard.
Oh no, its not. My friend has had to ban TK from his campaign due to excessive abuse. =) How?
Flame arrow is a 1 hour per level spell. Add 1d6 per arrow and see what you get.
Add the bard's inspire courage (which will be a +3 to damage) and the Malconvoker's +2, and you get +1d6+5 to every arrow you shoot. Not to mention that even Colossal arrows would not exceed the weight limitations of TK.
Of course your own TK would be a couple of projectiles better but you waste lots of spell slots doing so.
Getting a free quicken is actually much better on the good conjuration spells. The ones you don't have to burn class features on.
Imagine if you had just played a Master Specialist conjurer from the get-go and threw down a force cage and an incendiary cloud.
Damage output is not higher than the vrock... and you burn many many spells.
Malconvoker drops you a caster level.
If you're a serious summoner-only wizard, caster level is not much of a worry.
Rashemi summoning is much better for SNA, which gives elementals of reasonable power.
But its still powerful for a wizard. Much better than anything else you can get.
Finally, a vrock (even with TK at will) is not especially impressive for a 16th level wizard.
Oh no, its not. My friend has had to ban TK from his campaign due to excessive abuse. =) How?
Flame arrow is a 1 hour per level spell. Add 1d6 per arrow and see what you get.
Add the bard's inspire courage (which will be a +3 to damage) and the Malconvoker's +2, and you get +1d6+5 to every arrow you shoot. Not to mention that even Colossal arrows would not exceed the weight limitations of TK.
Of course your own TK would be a couple of projectiles better but you waste lots of spell slots doing so.