The Gaming Den

There's a new Save My Game Article up.

Makes me a sad panda. Most of it is just inane crap like "if you put tokens all over the battle map, you can visually represent stuff on the battle map." Duh. But there's some actual information they have in here:

The human fighter (on the left and using the purple disks) marks the left-hand ghost, while the dwarf paladin uses his divine challenge to mark (with the light blue disks) the right-hand ghost from afar.

Marked is a new condition that defenders and some soldier monsters can apply to their enemies. By itself, it gives a penalty to your target if it attacks anyone but you, which helps defenders and soldiers fulfill their role on the battle grid. Often, though, there are other effects that serve as riders on the marked condition. For instance the paladin's divine challenge -- that class's signature marking ability -- does some amount of radiant damage once a turn when the target of divine challenge attacks someone other than the paladin who marked him. Of course, the fighter (the other Player's Handbook defender) features a different effect, dissuading her mark from taking the battle elsewhere. Oh, and this is really important to remember -- a creature can be marked by only one opponent at a time and new marks supersede old marks.

Similar to the Knight that K and I made, although there's something not right about it. It's hard to put my finger on, but I think it has something to do with that being a really clumsy DoT mechanic. Maybe it has to do with the Marked Condition causing attack penalties on enemies under the specific circumstances shown. I mean, the ghost marked by the Dwarf is actually closer to the Fighter and could easily move to a place where both the other ghost and the fighter were between it and the Paladin. So it just seems "off" in this instance.

Basically it seems like they are really struggling to try to fit an ability to "get hate" into the Fighter when they should really be making classes which actually do something.

-Username17

After thinking about it for a while, I think I figured out why this piece rubs me the wrong way:

While the combat advantage granted by flanking can be apprehended by looking at the field of battle, 4th Edition features many other ways that a creature can grant combat advantage. Various conditions, such as blinded, dazed, and stunned, also grant combat advantage, and since the rogue's sneak attack is contingent on the condition and not just the act of flanking (or catching someone flat-footed), you'll want to find ways in which to communicate this particular combat occurrence to rogues at the very least. Like bloodied, I use those handy skull beads to mark a figure that grants combat advantage to all enemies, and allow the rogue player to keep track of the occasional enemy that grants combat advantage only to her character (using the magnetic markers in complicated battles if she desires).

See, simplifying things is a good thing if you don't lose functionality. But if you muck it back up with more complexity, it's not simple any more.

Basically their Combat Advantage is set up for three things:

• Positional Advantage - you are on higher ground, flank a target, or whatever. You are in a dynamically superior position that can be determined by just looking at the battle map. Whether your target is standing in difficult terrain or surrounded by enemies or whatever, the advantage doesn't need any kind of tokens or nomenclature at all because it's transiently obvious what the advantage is.
  
  
• Conditional Advantage The target is dazed or slowed or in some other way hampered from defending themselves. This is not known by looking at the map position and is instead based on the condition of the target. You might actually want to put little skull beads on things, but that seriously sounds retarded. In all but the largest battles I'd just remember it.
  
  
• Personal Advantage The attacker has a specific advantage against the target. Maybe he's a dragon hunter and the target is a dragon. Maybe he successfully feinted against this foe. This is also where they totally lost me. Once you include Bob feinting against Joe in a rubric that includes Joe being stunned, I no longer know what your stupid little beads mean.

For TNE, Positional Advantage, Conditional Advantage, and Personal Advantage should all be different.

-Username17

Marked is a new condition that defenders and some soldier monsters can apply to their enemies. By itself, it gives a penalty to your target if it attacks anyone but you, which helps defenders and soldiers fulfill their role on the battle grid.

Yay - fighters and paladins can hold aggro!

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1204195173[/unixtime]]

[*] Conditional Advantage The target is dazed or slowed or in some other way hampered from defending themselves. This is not known by looking at the map position and is instead based on the condition of the target. You might actually want to put little skull beads on things, but that seriously sounds retarded. In all but the largest battles I'd just remember it.

I like to use these little colored magnetic discs that stick to the bottom of the minis. I use red for wounded (<50% hp), white for invisible, blue for flying, green for stunned, etc. I find it incredibly useful, and in a battle with 6 PCs and >10 monsters of 3-4 different species, it's not always easiy to remember who has what conditions on them. "Retarded?"

But aside from that, I pretty much agree. Simplifying is good, but if you simplify to the point where you have to re-complexify...you've accomplished nothing.

Oh, and the "marked" thing...the ghost of a good idea, but it needs more (of course, we're not seeing the actual crunch here...maybe it's perfect! )

I always wanted some better reason that AoOs to simulate tactical engagement...

...But these marks don't really seem to be doing it for me.

-Crissa

I think it's ultimately that you're a good person pretending to be neutral. So you expect good stuff to happen, and then you get pissed when it doesn't.

I on the other hand, I pretend to be good and sometimes helpful, the problem is that I don't know if it's still a mask any more.

wrote:The fighter retorts with a thicket of blades attack, marking both of the ghosts.

I love how they're not even changing the names of the Tome of Battle abilities they've ported into 4E.

Since this thread is here...

there is a shitload of stuff trickling back from the D&D experience thing going on now.

Highlights- explanation of how the healing surges work. you get x+con mod, and it heals 1/4 of your hit points. However, you can only trigger one once per encounter, otherwise the cleric/warlord needs to do it for you. You can burn through them after the encounter.

Daily powers aren't. You can 'camp' for 6 hours, and everything recharges (dailies, healing surges, etc). So they're really 3x per day. Good job on fixing the 15 minute work day, WoTC!

Action points are mini rewards for 'completing' encounters. You start with 1, can only use 1 per encounter, and 'earn' them for every two encounters (or 'milestone') you 'complete' Yes, thats really the language they use. Fuck you and your gamist terminology, you bastards.

Reach weapons (and creatures with reach) magically atrophy when it isn't your turn. No explanation for it. You just don't have reach when it isn't your action. Spears are offensive weapons, and a phalanx is apparently the stupidest thing ever, since someone can just walk up and not care.

Running and charging suck ass. Running is +2 squares of movement, but you give everyone combat advantage (+2 to hit, plus all those abilities like sneak attack that take advantage of it). So its really fucking stupid to ever do it. Charging gives you a whopping +1 to hit and you move and attack as a standard action... but you can't use any powers while charging. So you are required to make a subpar attack while charging. Dumb.

And there are some bad pictures of a couple character sheets that may be enlightening. Wizards use spell books to swap out daily powers. Half-elves have a stupid aura thing like elves do, except they give +1 to diplomacy to people within 10 squares rather than +1 perception.

character sheets here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t ... quickstart guide, here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t ... [br][br]Oh yeah, durations are stupid-
1 round, the entire encounter, or people can shrug them off with a save. Roll a d20, on a 10+ it ends. So if you're dumb enough to use a duration based spell, it has a flat 55% chance of just ending each round. More if they have a save bonus like the pit fiend does. Yeah, do something else.

Defense bonuses look like they are calculated from the higher of two stats- For is str or Con, Ref is Int or Dex, Wil is Wis or Cha. Not sure how I feel about. Makes it damn easy to min/max a character. A rogue really only needs str, dex and cha. Really- you lose a few bonuses on some skills, but nothing important or major. Go for 18,10,18,10,18,10 or as close to it as you can get.

Here be youtube on the "event"

4E experience opening
http://youtube.com/watch?v=c-OVhNCD3vM[ ... [br][br]4E Design Philosophy
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9_PsZlS1FRM

Annual Products (ie yearly PHB)

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1204238282[/unixtime]]

Reach weapons (and creatures with reach) magically atrophy when it isn't your turn. No explanation for it. You just don't have reach when it isn't your action. Spears are offensive weapons, and a phalanx is apparently the stupidest thing ever, since someone can just walk up and not care.

Running and charging suck ass. Running is +2 squares of movement, but you give everyone combat advantage (+2 to hit, plus all those abilities like sneak attack that take advantage of it). So its really fucking stupid to ever do it. Charging gives you a whopping +1 to hit and you move and attack as a standard action... but you can't use any powers while charging. So you are required to make a subpar attack while charging. Dumb.

Wow... that sucks.

Wtf were they thinking with reach weapons? That makes em just pretty horrible. But I guess they were sick of the uber spiked chain.

The charging thing I can sorta see, even though it's pretty awful. The running rule is... well wtf is that shit... damn. Are you sure it's +2 squares and not x2 squares? Cause x2 might make some sense.

I can't really tell if charging even gives everyone else combat advantage. Common sense says it would since you are running, but it would also say that reach doesn't "disappear" when it is not my turn.

Even if it doesn't give everyone else combat advantage it still sucks.

Charging doesn't give combat advantage, but running does. Charging isn't quite the same as running, but mechanically, its strange- its combining a standard attack with a normal move action as a standard action. You still have your move and minor actions. (or two minor since you can change anything into a minor action).

9. Movement is quick and easy.
Each character has a speed listed in squares. One 1-inch square equals one five-foot square in the game world. When you take a move action, you can move up to the indicated number of squares. Moving from one square to another, even diagonally, costs 1 square of speed. Sometimes terrain will slow you down, costing you more than 1 square of speed – this is called difficult terrain.

Moving away from an enemy adjacent from you usually provokes an opportunity attack. However, you can also use a move action to shift; this lets you move one square without suffering an opportunity attack from adjacent enemies.

TIP: If you need to get somewhere fast, you can run as a move action. This gives you +2 speed for your move, but you grant any attackers combat advantage until the beginning of your next turn.

And yeah, +2 squares in return for all enemies getting +2 to attacks and any other CA related abilities. I'm amused that running went from x4 (or x5) to +2. Thats just fucked up.
The original quickstart document is up on the D&D site somewhere.


Here is the pdf.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn ... 080228a[br]

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1204238282[/unixtime]]Half-elves have a stupid aura thing like elves do, except they give +1 to diplomacy to people within 10 squares rather than +1 perception.

I need a vomiting smiley. just isn't enough.

Charging doesn't look so bad for Fighters - look at their at-wills. Cleave does 1 damage to an adjacent target in addition to your normal attack, and Tide of Iron lets you push enemies around one square with your attack.

Sure, Tide of Iron looks fun, but I'm not gonna cry too hard over not doing it once.

EDIT: Of course, ever charging as a Rogue means you fail.

Yeah, but really, you want to open with your major powers as soon as possible, which means getting in the per encounter (or even per day) powers. Just take a move action and do something significant with your standard action.

I suppose with a charge, you can take a move action, and then charge, which means you can close that distance pretty quickly. But I'm not 100% sure you can actually move twice. It would certainly negating running- just convert a standard action to a move action and move, then move again. Its better than setting yourself up in exchange for two squares of movement.

Sigh

@angel- yeah. All sorts of floating bonuses are still about. Its why that article that Frank referenced is so sad. Say there are 8-10 combatants involved in a fray. Now, keep track of who's bloodied, who's marked who, who is granting combat advantage (and wow, the tense of that is annoying), if the warlock has cursed anyone, any other special monster effects, and then keep track of whether the elf is within 10 squares so you have a better chance of noticing the sneak lurking around the edge of combat. Plus the effects that last for a round, or the encounter *and* the ones you have to roll for.

Streamlined, right?

Imban- I found a summary of the powers. The write up there says cleave is 3. Which is still sucky. It may be the fighters Str mod in the full write up (everything in these samples is precalculated)
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=220083

Notably the ranged powers are really point blank- range 10. And the wizard gets a lot more at will abilities...

Voss wrote:All sorts of floating bonuses are still about.

The floating bonus is bad enough by itself... but it's a bonus so small nobody cares about it... and it's to a skill not used in combat... and it has a fixed radius so half-elves have to stand far back from the negotiating table so as to enhance their faceman and not the opposition.

It is retarded beyond retarded.

The diplomacy ability only effects allies, so they don't have to stand away from the table.

Here is a link to a site that has better scans of the sheets

http://www.critical-hits.com/2008/02/28 ... haracters/

It's only slightly less ridiculous, because it still calls for a cordon.

"Sorry folks, everyone has to stay at least 55 feet from the negotiating table. Basic half-elf prevention protocol, y'know."

The elf one is even better. Allies get +1 to perception as long as they are within 10? 5? squares of the elf and aren't elves themselves. Its important to remember that when adventuring, always keep your eyes on the elf. If its ears start twitching, danger is afoot!

But strangely, other elves can't pick up on their body language. Or mystical perception vibes. Or whatever, its so damn gamist they can't actually come up with a fluff reason for why it works.

Well, Frank, if you didn't post links to random, half-useless WOTC articles, people like me would never see them. Your efforts in mockery are not wasted.
I just don't bother to check their 1 per 3-5 month updates since they are so sporadic.

Half-elves should have an option: the Loner Outcast Squall Clone (...), or the Flamboyant (males: Suspiciously Gay or 3-Snaps Gay) Social Whore.
Either they get their social skill bonuses, or they pick feats or abilities from the human and elf lists while suffering penalties to social skills.
The stereotype that all half-elves are by default wide-roaming pseudo-Bards irks me.
We need the Superfluous Elves in there too...

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1204256501[/unixtime]]Well, Frank, if you didn't post links to random, half-useless WOTC articles, people like me would never see them. Your efforts in mockery are not wasted.
I just don't bother to check their 1 per 3-5 month updates since they are so sporadic.

Half-elves should have an option: the Loner Outcast Squall Clone (...), or the Flamboyant (males: Suspiciously Gay or 3-Snaps Gay) Social Whore.
Either they get their social skill bonuses, or they pick feats or abilities from the human and elf lists while suffering penalties to social skills.
The stereotype that all half-elves are by default wide-roaming pseudo-Bards irks me.
We need the Superfluous Elves in there too...

Player races do
contain too many elf breeds.
Fact of DnD.

The change to reach weapons makes me angry. Note that some monsters will still threaten with reach, just not your reach fighter.

That change, along with others, shows that they think a battlefield should be a very tight space. For example:

Note how much importance they put on an extra 2-4 squares of movement a round (giving combat advantage to everyone). Look at the shortness of ranged attacks.
Additionally, since charging doubles your movement in a round, and you can only make a basic attack, it seems that they want special attacks to be in as close a space as they can make it.

I suppose it is easier to play the game on a smaller battlemat, but I'm not sure I like the change of focus. I wonder if high level (20-30) will have a tight battlefield space, or if they will have epic-scale effects.

Yep, short range is the new d&d. Longbows, fucking longbows max out at 40 squares. (200 fucking feet) Their 'normal' range, whatever that means, is 20 squares.

All the character sheets are up over here-
http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarde ... s[br]click on the slideshow button to see a decently sized version

the long bow is on the eladrin ranger's front side.

And they have their own form of win. Their 'extended rest' is cut down to 4 hours. So they can seriously use their daily powers 5-6 times per day, if they squeeze in enough rest periods. Go for a party of eladrin!

Weird thing- all forms of healing seem to use up the healing surges, even clerical healing and paladin's bad touching. So those will be the limit of how long you can go before resting. Which, if the encounters are actually challenging, will probably be about 2-3. Yay.

[sigh] Now I need to add about 10 more items to my "things I hate about 4e" list. (Yes, I have a list. Currently, "Hate" outweighs "Like" by a factor of 3-4, with a little, tiny "Don't Care" section.)

- Non-reach reach weapons
- The Fool's Charge
- Clumsy, gamist language
- "Per day" means "every 6 hours"
- Elves make OTHER people more perceptive
- But not other elves
- Half-elves make OTHER people better diplomats
- But not other half-elves, I'll betcha.
- Simplify + re-complexify = win!
- You WILL fight in cramped spaces and you WILL like it! (this is particularly amusing given 4e's alleged focus in mobility...as in, you no longer have to choose between moving or full-attacking, and there are more abilities that reward movement)

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1204238282[/unixtime]]Half-elves have a stupid aura thing like elves do, except they give +1 to diplomacy to people within 10 squares rather than +1 perception.

Oh, I figured this one out. See, everyone hates half-elves, right? So the presence of a half-elf naturally inspires others to put aside their petty differences and work together...against a common foe...the half-elf.

@Maxus: Nice haiku.

Half-elves and half-orcs
are superfluous races;
I wish they were gone.

half-orcs are gone. Because no one gets raped in D&D.


Oh, here's something to add to your hate list. Remember that big thing concern about casters vs. noncasters? Well, guess which two classes can use rituals? Thats right, our old friends the cleric and wizard. Everybody else can suck it.

Its also worth noting that rogue seem to be the gimps of the 'strikers' (rogue, ranger, warlock). The other two classes get bonus damage too, but they get it all the time. Its d6 or d8 as opposed to 2d6, but they can do it reliably at range.