The Gaming Den

Ok, Frank and I both like the idea of "magic sites" from Dominions III. These are places of power that push magic energy into the world, and sometimes that creates monsters and sometimes that creates discrete units of magic("gems") that mages use for a variety of effects. Powerful empires are created on top of particularly powerful collections of sites.

Here is what I was thinking:

In the DnD universe, empires are built on sites. The Empire of the Sun has palaces on powerful sites and they use these energies to empower powerful troops like the Emperer's Guards who are men of superhuman strength and endurance whose eyes blaze with sunfire. Monster attacks are held back by these troops who basically exist to keep society locked down and civilized.

Temples also create sites. Priests create them to channel more magical energy from the world, so priesthoods are powers in the world that need to be respected. Mages do the same thing, but basically with elaborate magical structures instead of the faith of the people.

Heroes enter the setting because they go outside of civilization and the protected areas to gain loot or fame or to protect civilians on the outskirts of the empire that it doesn't want to waste the resources to protect. The empires have an incentive to keep armies out of the empire and generally keep order, but they don't actually care about every village or injustice.

The uncivilized areas are that way because the magic sites in those areas can't be "reformatted". The Grotto of Black Roses creates undead and there is nothing anyone can do about it, but heroes might go there to take treasures invested with death energies or fight back a swelling of undead that threaten to devour a local town.

Mages and intelligent monsters live out in the wilds because sitting long enough in the Inverted Tower really will infuse you with Wind magic.

Ruins are just places that used to be tamed and where the magical energies are no longer contained. Instead of the Knights of Stone being anointed in the Groves of the Deeps, now malicious golems and animated statues roam the ancient halls and towers of Nyth Glanbar. Abandoned ancient temples and mage structures also count as Ruins.

Sound playable?

What problems would need to be addressed?

How would a Cleric be affected with his/her spells in a temple as opposed to the wilderness? Any changes?

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1203969969[/unixtime]]How would a Cleric be affected with his/her spells in a temple as opposed to the wilderness? Any changes?

I see clerics, being heroes, being independently powerful. So, they'd have no effect in different places.

So, the high priest of the Temple of Bhaal gets his power from his worship of Bhaal and the Temple, so if he leaves the Temple his power goes away.

Sarin, a cleric of Bhaal who has adventured outside the temple for years may have power equal to the high priest, but he had to earn it hard way (discipline, faith, study, and mastery of divine energies).

Both can call murder demons from the Abyss or heal the masses, but Sarin can do that outside a temple on top of being able to lead armies in battle and fight dragons in the Vale of a Thousand Fires.

It's an interesting point to be begin from, and I think it raises some questions...

--These sites, from your examples, obviously align to some sort of point on the Occult Compass. How can you tell them apart? Is there/will there be a list of all the alignments?

--It runs pretty logically that some sites are not as strong as others (It's the difference between Targetzan's Slightly Sacred Chamber, versus his Really Sacred Chamber). How does that affect the sites? Will an ordinary person know he's in a Slight Negative Zone by the creepy woods and the perpetual overcast and the weird noises at night, whereas the person in the Strong Negative Zone knows he's there because he's having to hack apart zombies.

--What effect do these sites have on creatures and objects in them? Can you perform special feats of magic or item creation there? Does the magic well up like a geothermal hotspot, and can it likewise be depleted through constant use, or a single intense use of it?

--What causes these hot spots? How are they related, what makes them different, and how are they similar? (I can actually see some some parallels to the Tales of Symphonia theory of mana here. I'll explain it upon request.)

Edit: 'Emperor' has two e's and one o, not three e's, by the way.

I am somewhat familiar with Exalted, and this sounds a lot like how their manses/demesnes function. If you are familiar with Exalted, could you articulate how your idea is similar/dissimilar?

Also, would there be rules for players tapping the power of these sites to make some sort of divinely morphic themed fortress?

I think the monster generation aspect of magic sites can really tie into the world in a lot of favorable ways. That is, when your empire has Lykeion, that's very good for you. It means that you can draw upon all kinds of crazy Pretalokan power and make clockwork men to carry the flag of your empire to every corner of the globe. It means that your people will be born bad ass a substantially larger portion of the time. But it also means that periodically Djinn and Yuan Ti will boil out of holes to cause havoc. That's perfect in several ways:

The most obvious is that it means that your characters can seriously spend their adventuring careers ruining around the great city engaging in intrigue and fighting the monster of the week to keep the residents safe if that's what you want to do. That is, you aren't necessarily exiled from major cities if you want to do mid and high level adventures, because major cities are very likely to be situated on a monster generator. The setting actually demands that every major metropolis gets its own Hellmouth, so if you want to play Buffy you can.

But it also means that you have a great excuse for fallen empires. Any time Irminsul shuts down and the Ulmites no longer have a channel to Tiryagyoni their magic will be a lot less cool. They will no longer have armies of bears, and their Great Wheel will stop spinning. The orchards will wither and people will leave - deep in the wilderness great monuments will become overgrown and strange ancient secrets will sit there in the dust waiting for people with magic to make them go again. The gate may also open again, causing the Wheel to turn anew far from the eyes of man while wolves prowl the lands. Alternately, if the city's champions fall or the monster rate increases, the cities of Ulm may be over run by forest monsters - their towers cast down and their achievements lost to the memory of man until adventurers find them again.

In short, because temporal power comes from power sources which are inherently unstable and periodically spawn monsters out of legend, there is a built-in setting reason for the player characters to be able to find action and adventure in cities and in wilderness areas and in wilderness areas that used to be cities.

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Now what I will say is that priests and mages should normally be finding these sources of power rather than creating them. So the High Temple of the Rain is built on a power site, but the power site was already there before the temple was built (indeed, the temple may be the third or fourth thing built one on top of another on top of that power site). The Rain Priests are powerful because they already have the Asuran power. And they have it because they got there first, because they know where to look.

-Username17

Maxus at [unixtime wrote:1203972417[/unixtime]]It's an interesting point to be begin from, and I think it raises some questions...

--These sites, from your examples, obviously align to some sort of point on the Occult Compass. How can you tell them apart? Is there/will there be a list of all the alignments?

Yes. Some sites will be mixes of several.

Maxus at [unixtime wrote:1203972417[/unixtime]]
--It runs pretty logically that some sites are not as strong as others (It's the difference between Targetzan's Slightly Sacred Chamber, versus his Really Sacred Chamber). How does that affect the sites? Will an ordinary person know he's in a Slight Negative Zone by the creepy woods and the perpetual overcast and the weird noises at night, whereas the person in the Strong Negative Zone knows he's there because he's having to hack apart zombies.

Generally yes. Some places might have magical effects on those who enter them, while others may clearly spawn monsters. For example, if you die in the Forsaken Forest you come back as some form of undead and if you enter the Blessed Circle wounds heal at an accelerated rate. More powerful places spawn bigger effects and monsters.

Other places will look dramatic but be tightly contained. The Ice Palace is made of ice but the only real effect is that the Ice Queen has a lot of cold magic.

Maxus at [unixtime wrote:1203972417[/unixtime]]
--What effect do these sites have on creatures and objects in them? Can you perform special feats of magic or item creation there? Does the magic well up like a geothermal hotspot, and can it likewise be depleted through constant use, or a single intense use of it?

--What causes these hot spots? How are they related, what makes them different, and how are they similar? (I can actually see some some parallels to the Tales of Symphonia theory of mana here. I'll explain it upon request.)

I see the sites having a constant flow rather than a charge. If you spend enough time learning to master a site (or you created it via temple or structure) you can empower troops or items (of a specific type) or it might grant spellcasting. So the Red Duke may control the Cave of Fire Crystals and use its power to create fire giants and Pyroclastic Armor for those giant followers. If the Emperor sends in his Emperor's Guard and kills the Red Duke, he can't do these things.

Since no one is directing the flow from the Cave of Fire Crystals, in a few months the magic might start creating Flame Drakes from lizards that live in the caves and creating random items like Bomb Crystals from the crystals. A dagger left in the cave might eventually become a heartfire dagger, or it might just melt. Its wild magic, so you just don't know, which is why the Emperor is just not willing to leave his troops there to figure it out.

Mages and heroes create magic items by either craft or fame. The sword that kills the Emperor becomes magical, but a wizard could just spend a few months channeling magic into a sword to make it magic too.

I don't like the idea of the High Priest being next to worthless if he isn't inside of the 5' radius power circle. That's lame. What I propose instead is that clerics syphon the energy in the power circles that they are built upon and disperse it to their followers. In this manner, a priest of Kelptar is free to adventure, knowing that the Kelptar followers disperse the magical energies to him every morning to keep him safe in his travels. These keeps the "clerics get power from god, their faith, and their followers" flavor.

Where clerics typically build upon and harness existing magical energies in the name of their god/pantheon, the wizards have the tendency to create and horde power. In this manner, the wizards know how to suck an area devoid of magic energy, and use their magic efficiently to create the desired effect. They are the magic thieves that travel the lands sealing energy into their crystals, gems, staffs, wands and everything that they can. In the same manner, the wizards build places of power by instituting magic-collection spots (such as digging a lake would create a pool of water, creating a mana collection tower draws the mana naturally to it).

Alternate interpretation: if these places spawn horrors often enough, wouldn't there be a good reason to stay away from them? (Points of Light/Points of Death)

One of the most important things that power sites do is that spending an unspecified period of time studying them and training in them makes you a bad ass.

This is an important plot point, and it allows you to handwave away the existence of numerous villains.

-Username17

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1203977347[/unixtime]]One of the most important things that power sites do is that spending an unspecified period of time studying them and training in them makes you a bad ass.

This is an important plot point, and it allows you to handwave away the existence of numerous villains.

-Username17

Very slick.

It gets even more so if players are eventually allowed to do that, too.

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1203977347[/unixtime]]One of the most important things that power sites do is that spending an unspecified period of time studying them and training in them makes you a bad ass.

To do that, you need to survive being there, hence my point.

What happens when Charles the Horrid Necromancer stables his undead army in the nearby woods, and walks into the City of Awesome Laser Lights (magic site of holy light and making undead burst into painful flames) because he needs to use their library? Charles is a channeler of negative energy, or something, but is he suddenly in horrible pain because the magic site is so damn powerful and opposite of what he does? Or does this fold in with the fact that he's a PC, and his power's function anywhere. He essentially doesn't care about magic sites, other then as monster generators and such?

This idea also basically stops any huge scale wars from happening. When the Faceless Knights leave their city to go put the smackdown on the GolaLords, they suddenly turn into worthless mooks, and will get their ass kicked if they actually keep going to the GolaCity.

I could also see a huge market for favourable magic sites. When your PC party, in business with the Water Magocracy, find a magic site that is constantly on fire (or something), you can totally barter the location of it away to the Fire Emperor for something totally awesome.

Okay. What about high priest actually being the power site instead of the temple?

That is, since people believe in them, they're awesome. And as they do more awesome things, more people believe in them. They can start giving off excess power, at which point other people can hang around then and become powerful. Eventually the high priests dies, but not before he's infused all of his disciples with his excess awesome, and they've become little teenie weenie power sites of their own, ad start the whole process again?

Ironic, that the magic designed to fight monsters instead creates more if there is enough of it in one spot.
I like it.
High-output magical zones would be like sulfur vents on the ocean floor for living things; there would be the filter feeders (native monsters to the region feeding on magic) then the predators (heroes) then the recycler tiny crustaceans and bacteria to ensure nothing goes to waste (the Turnip Economy, NPCs, or rather... mooks and hangers-on in search of a quick payoff)

Ok, lots of questions (and some counter-arguments for Frank):

Heroes: Heroes get their power from training, experience, and heroic acts (just like some magic items) and it follows them around. So yes, a terrible Necromancer can enter the Holy Pyre even though its blows up undead (as long as he's not undead, of course).

High Priests:
High priests run temples. They need followers to draw the power and they need to do rites or else a temple draws magic unpredictably. This power tends to vanish tens of miles from the temple, so they could defend a city but not lead an invasion

Some high priests are actual heroes. Rather than drawing some of the temple's power to give themselves spellcasting, they make better temple guards or more magic items or something. They can go on adventures.

Armies:
Armies need to be regularly refreshed at their site, but they might be led by a powerful hero who draws power for them. This means that the Army of the Flame Lord is wicked awesome and can conquer nations, but the Emperor's Guard really do hang out and protect the Emperor.

And you can turn the tide of the war by putting a dagger into the Flame Lord.

+magic sites: Temples and Structures:
The number of sites can't be totally fixed. Rather than having "overflow" from sites, I'd prefer if the number of sites was flexible. Its seems far too easy to just observe known sites and kill anyone who tries to enter one (regardless if you can tap the site or not). Even if you assume that there are unknown sites, it still means that eventually someone powerful will know them all and just station guards on them.

But, if priests and wizard make new sites through temples and structures, you really can have a Temple of Bhaal nestled in the City of Light without someone going "eh, we're losing power here. I think someone set up a temple."

I like the idea of the metropolitan DnD city where the temple of Bhaal really is across from the temple of the God of Healing. The Bhaalites defend the city and the Healers tends to the sick, so the King doesn't want either to really leave even though he suspects the Bhaalites are sacrificing virgins and the Healers are preaching pacifism to the people.

I think it would be cool to have some magical sites wax and wane in power in various time cycles. So you've got a moon shrine that gives off more magic power at night, or a solar temple that's stronger in the summer than the winter, and maybe an obscure tower that gets this giant flash of power for a week once every century and is barely detectable the rest of the time. Seems like that would make for some more handy plot hooks.

Also, yet another thing this concept may remind people of.

and maybe an obscure tower that gets this giant flash of power for a week once every century and is barely detectable the rest of the time.

Ah, more things for the Aboliths to know about that we don't. Which isn't always a bad thing, mind you.

K at [unixtime wrote:1203981763[/unixtime]]The number of sites can't be totally fixed. Rather than having "overflow" from sites, I'd prefer if the number of sites was flexible. Its seems far too easy to just observe known sites and kill anyone who tries to enter one (regardless if you can tap the site or not). Even if you assume that there are unknown sites, it still means that eventually someone powerful will know them all and just station guards on them.

Agreed. If the sites are totally static I'd expect the setting to tend towards very stable power concentrations. Now this could still have cities fall but the rest of the world would know there is a power site of some form there still. Anyone with a brain would try to act on that.

I would like them to have inconstant flow even while operating. So sometimes your big stuff (forges, wheels, city lights, whatever) sputter and go out for a while (which is an adventure), and sometimes the juice flows faster than you can manage causing monsters to show up and rampage (which is also an adventure).

As for finding sites vs. creating them, I think that it is important that The Black Tower and the Citadel of Pyriphegeton should be in weird out-of-the-way areas and cities should gradually grow around them.

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So basically you have people who want to dirt farm far away from manticores, and they homestead where they don't think any magic sites are near. And they don't have much of value, but if a magic site is discovered or appears near them you have a source of adventure. And then on the other side you have people who want temporal power, so they build on or attempt to take over a power site. And these people are a source of adventure coming, going, and staying.

-Username17

I want variety.

The inconstant sources are random but the stable ones are predictable (and therefore more crowded, but of less danger).
Gains would be more from the random ones, though, attracting gamblers and fools alike.

So, like Ol' Faithful, every 10 years the city has a mini-crisis, and all the trophy hunters come into town. And every 100 years, they have a bigger crisis, and the rulership of the city goes to whoever can save it. And every 1000 years (and only the Aboleth know this) Kali shows up personally to dance the city flat. People still live there, because the schedule makes it safer than a town where something could go wrong at any time.

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1204062506[/unixtime]]I want variety.

The inconstant sources are random but the stable ones are predictable (and therefore more crowded, but of less danger).
Gains would be more from the random ones, though, attracting gamblers and fools alike.

Seconded.

Perhaps power sites when left unchecked are unpredictable, but building a temple or throne or something allows you to store excess magic for later, up to a certain point, then it unleashes and you get a monster mash in the harem.

I think they should be unpredictable, either way.

Maybe 'predictable' as in with the great conjunction or some alignment of stars or after a set of butterfly wings have fallen off the snow-topped peak and rippled the upper atmosphere letting the sunlight leave burnt in markings upon the plain of umbrose...

...But Just because something is unpredictable, that doesn't mean it is unmanageable. So you place guards at the entrance to the deepest temple level or seal the door while the priest is out, and one in a thousand years the priests all die inside and the door remains sealed until someone is brave (or foolhardy) enough to tame the beasts inside.

-Crissa

Heroes and sites
After doing a rethink, I think heroes should count as sites for most purposes like creating armies and items long term affects on an area if they create an appropriate structure. So, Mages create longstanding magical effects by building mage towers that look like crystal flowers and warriors create societies by building fortresses and inspiring people to organize and be productive.

This way we can have heroes leading armies away from their sources of power, but don't have to deal with the problem of creating sites. This also means that the Temple of Bhaal can just be under the City of Lights because there is a powerful Priest of Bhaal who lives in it.

By this logic, the Black Tower really is run by a powerful vampire who takes blood and life force as tuition for dark arts training, and if you killed him the Black Tower would be still be a structure you could live in, but would be as good a place to study the dark arts as an inn's common room.

On swells and troughs.
I think these really should just be events in your setting precipitated by characters.

So, during the month-long Reign of the Angry Angels when gates to the Heavens opened up and angels punished anyone less wicked than an angel, the City of Lights shone so bright that night became day. Few know the Reign started when the high priest tried to cleanse the world of wickedness and performed a rite to open the gates and the Reign stopped when heroes stabbed him to death.

Low points in a site might be plots where something powerful redirects or just blocks the power of the site. The enemies of the Fire Lord might just shut down the Citadel of Pyriphegeton while they mass a final attack, and after the attack they can't use the site so they abandon it now that the Fire Lord's forces are destroyed and his people are scattered to the winds.

Maybe all the Earth sites in the area wane because the Earth King was summoned, and that sets off the destruction of your society even though the Earth King was off doing something else for someone else.

I also think that abandoned areas still spike occasionally, even if it was a hero site. I mean, sleeping in the Black Tower might still get you turned into a vampire even though the Lord of the Tower has been dead for a while and an abandoned fortress draws would-be bandit lords.

Actual magic sites would run wild when abandoned and the priests no doing rites, so the Halls of the Oracles animate statues and earth elementals when wild and when the priests are in they build the Stone Oracles and armies of clay men.