The Gaming Den

So there we were, last sunday, killing some random crap grappling black(or brown?? dunno, they sucked) bears(party lvl 3) and my wizzo blasts them frying one and almost killing the other one. The party tank gets fried a bit(had resistance and saved) for 8 measly points of dmg. The combat ends, and suddenly there is a vote about kicking the character out of the group for being unfriendly. That was about 8th or 9th encounter with the same people, so i got stunned hearing and seeing that crap.
Every combat encounter i fry 65-70%(i run statistics for my chars) of the opposition and then get kicked out cause of 8pts of dmg?? And then the guy says "it's not personal, it's roleplay". HUH?? WTF?? had to stop myself from ripping his face of.
So anyway, the char gets left in the middle of the damn forest with no means to get to civilisation. And then the DM says "roll the dice make a new one, it's your fault anyway". I've been playing and dming for some 14 years and this is the first time crap like this happened to me, so any advice on how to handle it would be usefull.

Uh... right. I honestly have no idea what that's about. The first rule of D&D is that the group is a group, and everyone sticks together come hell or high water because otherwise the story doesn't move forward at all. Characters do not get kicked from groups. Players get kicked from groups - but even then only after having a frank conversation about hatever it is that the player is doing that is making people uncomfortable.

So honestly, that behavior is way out of line, and it sounds like the DM is so clueless that he doesn't get how completely out of line that behavior is. As I see it, you have two options:

1. Have an honest conversation with the other players and the DM about the needs of a story and the simple fact that kicking characters from a group under any circumstances is wholly unacceptable in a cooperative storytelling game.
   
2. Simply leave the group, and either explain your decision or not as you feel warranted.

Under no circumstances are you to either make a new character or join in the festivities of character on character intrigue - that would in no way be productive.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote: conversation about hatever .

Great typo there, Frank. Hate-ever indeed.

Here's my take:

Get a new group. Without knowing details, I'm inclined to chalk this up to general gamer social ineptitude and a likely carryover of out of game issues or personality clashes into the game.

If they're your friends, and you don't think they'll listen to reason (it sure doesn't sound like they will), make a new character. Make a character which will never ever be a 'friendly fire' problem, and will maybe be less effective.
I have three guesses for why your character got 'kicked out.'

The first is that he was too powerful. You were pulling more than your weight, and the other players began to feel that their characters were marginalized. So play a weaker character, or play a character weaker.

Another is that it is personal, and that they're trying to punish you for something you aren't aware of, or just be assholes. Not much to do if that's the case except start playing with some real friends, or make amends.

Of course, amybe you aren't being totally honest with us. Maybe the real reason is they just don't like your character, because you're playing him like a jerk, and were just waiting for a chance to get rid of him. If that's the issue, I think you know what to do.

Good luck man. I've been in some groups that had inter-player warfare, or characters (paladins, mostly) quitting the party, but never anyone being voted off the island.

FrankTrollman wrote:# Simply leave the group, and either explain your decision or not as you feel warranted.

Well, after this crap I would, but the thing is - I live in a backwater european country where a gaming group is something like your own personal efreet slave. So, no go on that one.

Catharz wrote:The first is that he was too powerful.

Er, he's a wizzo that uses dmg spells because i didnt want to use spell compendium instagib spells. No leetness or overpoweredness in there. The druid summons nasty critters that dish out almost the same dmg.

Catharz wrote:Another is that it is personal

I don't know. Might be, but who resolves personal conflicts through roleplay?!
I actually tell people to stop being an asshole outgame, not ingame.

Catharz wrote:Maybe the real reason is they just don't like your character

8 combat encounters and one roleplaying encounter. That's it. Not much chance to excel at roleplaying. Oh, there was that bit with "I vote to leave him here in the forest with no food or water", but little roleplay otherwise.

Funny thing is, the guy that called the vote wasn't the guy that got damaged in the first place. He just thought that i shouldn't have damaged him because it show that "he's going to damage us again".

Sounds like a load of BS, if the game is about role-playing (as they implied) then it's perfectly logical to assume that at one point or another, a wizard who sends out masses of energy transformed pain at enemies is likely to say... hit his own allies by accident? At work I sometimes bump into people - they don't vote to fire me. I don't think there's a lick of logic with the reasoning they gave you, so I'd say ask them to be honest why they kicked out your character... and pretty much +1 to what Frank said.

There are some cases where it's perfectly OK for a character to get kicked out of whatever group of mostly-like-minded folk he or she belongs to -- somewhat dependent on genre, but also on the players, and how metagame-minded they are.

For instance, if you're playing a game based on the old Legion of Super-Heroes comic books, it's virtually a requirement that at some point during the campaign a member (sometimes ally -- but a PC) of the Legion will do something morally questionable but necessary for either victory over evil or for consistency of characterization -- and will then have to leave the Legion under a cloud. It is also virtually a requirement that the same PC turn up later either as a full-fledged villain under DM control, or as a vital ally in an equally dire situation that results in his or her complete rehabilitation as a member.

Similarly, if you're playing a game based on the X-Files, it is virtually a requirement that someone in the group get fired by the FBI at some point for doing something incredibly unauthorized but completely necessary. It's also likely that someone in the group will turn out to be a spy for the Other Team and go over to them full-time.

Both of these things are fine. But the important, indeed vital point in all of the above is that the character getting kicked off the team happens with the consent and cooperation of his or her player, because the group as a whole agrees that it's the right way for the game to go. It is, in essence, a lot like retiring a character and starting a new one, except with a lot more drama.

Characters getting thrown out of a group against their players' wills is ass, however, and is usually a sign of a seriously dysfunctional group.

--d.

josephbt wrote:Funny thing is, the guy that called the vote wasn't the guy that got damaged in the first place. He just thought that i shouldn't have damaged him because it show that "he's going to damage us again".

In many of the games I've been in, the tossing of damaging spells onto your own people has been more than accident - it's been a strategy. If the rogue can dodge it or the tank can take it, sometimes the most viable option is dropping something on your friends in order to get the bad guy.

Why someone who, in theory, is on the same side you are, with the same desire to see the enemy taken out, would be offended by a scratch when it completes the goal is totally beyond me.

Ridiculous. Since you have no other options, I would just do as they say. There is no real way to win this situation, but I wouldn't play with a group of juveniles who don't see how the ends justify the means. Frying a character down to -10 and forcing them to make a new character out of malice is one thing, but dropping 8 damage on the guy with the most hp?

Unless there is more to the story, which I suspect - because no one is that innept in a role playing game. You would honestly have to be playing with very young children to have a few hitpoints enrage them to the point where they wanted your blaster gone.

As much as there may well be more to the story it is potentially believable.

There are genuine adult groups out there that will chuck a hissy over exactly that sort of dumbness.

I've seen it myself.

Its part of the "real role playerz" mind set. Understanding the numbers or the abstract nature of the damage system are not permitted to justify your actions because they regard all that as "metagaming".

So they dramatically declare any and all forms of damage no matter how minor as a vindictive full fledged attempt at murder and immediately set out to respond in kind. They then call it "real role playing".

Because having any sense of scale, proportion, good gaming, or even restraint is the exclusive domain of the fictional demon of the week, lets say "rules lawers".

I think they overreacted. Severly. But I think that there was SOME legitimacy to their reaction, just not that much. I mean, if I and a couple people were fighting monsters, and one of them lit my jacket on fire with a flamethrower(While I was wearing it), I think it'd be worth a good talking(Read:Shouting) about later. That said, I don't think that the dead second I got out of combat I would excise the person from my life without at least a discussion (reasonable or not) about it.

-Desdan

PhoneLobster wrote:Its part of the "real role playerz" mind set. Understanding the numbers or the abstract nature of the damage system are not permitted to justify your actions because they regard all that as "metagaming".

So they dramatically declare any and all forms of damage no matter how minor as a vindictive full fledged attempt at murder and immediately set out to respond in kind. They then call it "real role playing".

I spoke with them and this was the exactly what they said.

The logic was - since I don't know how many HP anyone has, how can i justify throwing dmg through them? It might kill them.

When i asked "How can u heal then if you don't know the HP?", I got the "Some look more some look less wounded."
Well, ditto with my dmg. He didnt look "more" wounded.

Next came the moronic "But it is not Ye Olde Goode alignment and you are Goode." What??! And leaving a party member in the middle of the wood with no food or water is?? At least I have a moral justification - fry everything, inc. my friend, but seriously hinder opposition thusly. Yes, I may kill my friend by accident(actually no, not even in a wet dream), but it is a risk I'll take. Everyone will profit in the end.

I've spoken with the DM and some of the reasonable guys. I'm leaving the morons for last.

Roll a new character?

So this isn't Roleplay - if it were roleplay it would be the time what's-her-name the warrior got one to many scorch marks, marches off on her own, but eventually returns to get the mage who no longer needs her and has to make amends?

-Crissa

josephbt wrote:I spoke with them and this was the exactly what they said.

The logic was - since I don't know how many HP anyone has, how can i justify throwing dmg through them? It might kill them.

When i asked "How can u heal then if you don't know the HP?", I got the "Some look more some look less wounded."
Well, ditto with my dmg. He didnt look "more" wounded.

I hate it when people pull that kind of crap "logic" on you... The party tank... He's the dude in the party who takes all sorts of hits and keeps going, right? And he didn't look that hurt, right?



Oh, well. Glad you got out.

Your group sounds retarded. If your backwater european country happens to be The Netherlands, drop me a pm.

josephbt at [unixtime wrote:1153466364[/unixtime]]

The logic was - since I don't know how many HP anyone has, how can i justify throwing dmg through them? It might kill them.

The proper response is "Well, I figured my fire-resistant friend would be hurt less by my fireball than he would by the 10 guys I killed with the fireball."

Desdan_Mervolam at [unixtime wrote:1153457914[/unixtime]]I think they overreacted. Severly. But I think that there was SOME legitimacy to their reaction, just not that much. I mean, if I and a couple people were fighting monsters, and one of them lit my jacket on fire with a flamethrower(While I was wearing it), I think it'd be worth a good talking(Read:Shouting) about later. That said, I don't think that the dead second I got out of combat I would excise the person from my life without at least a discussion (reasonable or not) about it.

-Desdan

Desdan summed up my position clearly as well. I would have never kicked you out of the group/instantaneously killed your character - I would have probably talked with you. However, if I was running the fighter character, the thing that I would have calmly explained is that though your blow alone may not have killed my character, your blow coupled with a successive monster's blow when compared next to the monster's blow may have been the difference between my character either (a) being consciencious vs unconsciencious or worse (b) being unconsciencious vs being dead. Yes there's different strategies to combat, I'll agree. However, I'd probably just explained that I'd prefer to keep the fear of taking incoming damage from just my opponents only.

The main thing is that through a rational discussion, I'm sure we would have come up with a mutual strategy instead of their knee-jerk reaction. All in all, I wouldn't lose too much sleep about not being able to be a part of their group any longer.

The appropriate response to such a thing is a short, rational, out-of-character discussion.

If they fail to see reason, the next appropriate response is to attack and kill the party, tell them all to roll up new characters, and walk away laughing.

Yup, there was a short and rational discussion the session after that one.

The party got TPKd by a swarm. This happened because there were no wizzos that could deal with swarms(like the one that got left out in the cold).

So, I asked "Does anyone feel that this is more than ironic?" The looks on their faces were precious. I quit that group then and there.

I'm playing Planescape now. It's seriously weird(in a not-so-good-way). But the guys I quit aren't playing anything anymore. It seems that there were more than one disgruntled player.

Start a new game.

Ask the disgruntled to join.

josephbt wrote:Yup, there was a short and rational discussion the session after that one.

The party got TPKd by a swarm. This happened because there were no wizzos that could deal with swarms(like the one that got left out in the cold).

So, I asked "Does anyone feel that this is more than ironic?" The looks on their faces were precious. I quit that group then and there.

I'm playing Planescape now. It's seriously weird(in a not-so-good-way). But the guys I quit aren't playing anything anymore. It seems that there were more than one disgruntled player.

Time for you to do your "I was totally right" dance.

I call it the 'I told ya so' dance.

Consider online gaming. I did after the group I was with since highschool, 8 years ago, suddenly pulled a few debate/argument-addicts in and I couldn't stand the game-disrupting fights every week.

It's not so bad playing online and in some cases better, and eventually I met new gamers...
.. and my gamer girlfriend...

Give it a try.

i have no clue how that works.online gaming, i mean. if anyone could explain, i'd be thankfull.

It works kind of like this forum, only instead of cursing at game designers you play a game.