The Gaming Den

This was brought on by the discussion about the imbalances of flight. I don't mean to cure those imbalances, but hopfully this will start to adress some of them. And hopefully it isn't too stupidly complex.
In the end, this actually nerfs flying meelers more than archers, but I don't care.

Some creatures might shift size category from their D&D norm, I don't really mind that.
Some creatures will have exceptions to the normal rules.

OK, so the basics. It isn't very original. Pretty much like D20:

Medium-size creatures occupy a 2m (x2m) square. A medium creature can squeeze into a 1m square ("squeezing" causes penalties to attack, AC, etc).

Small-size creatures occupy a 1m square, and can squeeze into a 0.5m square.

Tiny creatures occupy a 0.5m or smaller square, and can squeeze into a square half that size.

Large creatures occupy a 4m or larger square, and can squeeze into a square half that size.

Flying creatures use a space 4x the size they normally would. Thus, a flying medium creature occupies an 8m (x8m) square, and can squeeze into a 4m (x4m) square. As soon as a creature stops flying, it's space returns to normal.
If the space a flying creature is in becomes to small to squeeze into, it immediately stops flying.
A flying creature's space does not change for the purpose of it's attacks.

A reach weapon effectively doubles a creature's space (but this does not stack with the space increase from flying).

A creature can fit into another's space without squeezing if its space small enough to be fully within the other creature's space but outside of the other creature's squeeze area.
--Sorry about the confusing wording, maybe you can do better. I wish I could actually illustrate this--

Thus, a small creatue can fit within a large creature's space without squeezing. At that point the large creature is considered squeezed for the purposes of combat between the small creature and the large creature only.
Similarly, a small creature can occupy the space of a medium creature who is wielding a reach weapon.

I have the categorization of Large and Tiny as I do because I think it is basically pointless to have endless iterations. Tiny could go too, and Small would 'grow' to include it.

I haven't figured out how wierd this gets when you take it to it's logical conclusion. One a creature is three size steps smaller or larger than any PC, it's size doesn't really matter unless you have restrictive spaces..

Also, Escape Artist would let a creature act as if it were smaller (exact amount based on check), for both space and squeezing as desired.

And some creatures have extraordinary reach with certain weapons, which (for example) lets a dragon bite a foe without penalty while flying.

My initial reaction is that having people take up doubled areas is inherently problematic if you are attempting to put people into squares. That means that the length and width of the square just got multiplied by 1.41421, which is awkward to deal with.

It's very difficult to make someone take up 8 square meters. It's way easier to have them fill 9 square meters or 16.

-Username17

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1114302297[/unixtime]]My initial reaction is that having people take up doubled areas is inherently problematic if you are attempting to put people into squares. That means that the length and width of the square just got multiplied by 1.41421, which is awkward to deal with.

It's very difficult to make someone take up 8 square meters. It's way easier to have them fill 9 square meters or 16.

-Username17

People don't take up doubled areas. The side of the square is doubled, which is why a medium creature goes from 4 square meters (2x2) to 64 square meters (8x8). More accurately, the character goes from 8 cubic meters (approximately, height is obviously subject to some fudging) to 512 cubic meters.

That's quadrupling the sides.

You are taking the square area, doubling it, and then using it as the side of the square. That's crazy talk. Doubling the side of a 4 square meter area makes it 16 square meters.

I don't even have a clue where you got 512 cubic meters from 8 cubic meters, but that's what you are supposed to get when you multiply the sides of a cubic by four.

Personally, I've always used the word doubling to mean "having multiplied by two". And not, for instance "having multiplied by four", or any other permutations you have been throwing around. Assuming that things stay geometrically similar, doubling should make a length multiplied by 2, a square area multiplied by 4, and a cubic volume multiplied by 8.

-Username17

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1114324891[/unixtime]]That's quadrupling the sides.

You are taking the square area, doubling it, and then using it as the side of the square. That's crazy talk. Doubling the side of a 4 square meter area makes it 16 square meters.

I don't even have a clue where you got 512 cubic meters from 8 cubic meters, but that's what you are supposed to get when you multiply the sides of a cubic by four.

Personally, I've always used the word doubling to mean "having multiplied by two". And not, for instance "having multiplied by four", or any other permutations you have been throwing around. Assuming that things stay geometrically similar, doubling should make a length multiplied by 2, a square area multiplied by 4, and a cubic volume multiplied by 8.

-Username17

The 4m -> 8m is the increase in area for a flying creaure. I though you were getting hung up on the fact that I said a medium flying creature goes from 2m (x2m) to 8m.

A medium creature with a reach weapon obviously goes from a 4m^2 or 8m^3 to 16m^2 or 48m^3 (because it doesn't threaten squares on into the ground, unless something odd is going on) space (for most purposes).

Would it make more sense if I said the "doubling" or "halving" refered to one of a creature's (4) facings? Cause thats what I mean.

OK, then something funny is still going on. If they are a 2m square to begin with (which is what you said), then they started with a square-shaped 8m circumferencial facing and a 4m^2 area. When you double their sides. they have a 16m circumferencial facing and a 16m^2 area.

Is that what you mean? Cause I sure as hell still see no way to get 512 from anything being doubled.

It sounds like you are measuring the "length" of a 3-dimensional object, which is of course infinite. Which is probably where you are getting confused.

-Username17

512m^3 is the total area of the space occupied by a creature with a 8m facing. 8^3 = 512.

Catharz wrote:512m^3 is the total area of the space occupied by a creature with a 8m facing. 8^3 = 512.

No it isn't. 512 cubic meters is the total volume occupied by a cube of linear facing 8. But you said:

Catharz wrote:More accurately, the character goes from 8 cubic meters (approximately, height is obviously subject to some fudging) to 512 cubic meters.

Which is wrong on so many levels that it's difficult to even have this conversation.

Let's just say that before we can even discuss your figures, you are going to need to get your terminology straight.

Length doubles when the creature doubles. Its units are meters and are referred to as the creature's facing.

Area quadruples when the creature doubles. It's units are square meters, and are referred to as the creature's area.

Volume octuples when the creature doubles. It's units are cubic meters, and are referred to as the unit's space.

---

You absolutely can't keep using terminology for linear distance, square area, and cubic volume interchangeably and expect anyone to have a god damned clue what the hell you are talking about.

-Username17

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1114380212[/unixtime]]
You absolutely can't keep using terminology for linear distance, square area, and cubic volume interchangeably and expect anyone to have a god damned clue what the hell you are talking about.

-Username17

You're damn' right I can't.
Assuming you understand me now, maybe you could translate? I'm notoriously bad at getting things to make sense.

I believe that you mean:

Tiny creatures: .5m face, .25m^2 area.
Small creature: 1m face, 1m^2 area.
Medium creature: 2m face, 4m^2 area.
Large creature: 4m face, 16m^2 area.
Huge creature: 8m face, 64m^2 area.

Flying creatures double their face and quadruple their area if they want to actually fly at all. A flying creature which attempts to take up its normal area is considered "squeezing" and has to make some sort of unspecified crash test. A creature which is not flying that is in an area between the next size down and its standard area is considered "squeezing" already and can't fly under any circumstances.

Personally, I would make large creatures have a 3m face, because there are damned few creatures that can't fit into a 3m cube.

-Username17

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1114450092[/unixtime]]I believe that you mean:

Tiny creatures: .5m face, .25m^2 area.
Small creature: 1m face, 1m^2 area.
Medium creature: 2m face, 4m^2 area.
Large creature: 4m face, 16m^2 area.
Huge creature: 8m face, 64m^2 area.

Flying creatures double their face and quadruple their area if they want to actually fly at all. A flying creature which attempts to take up its normal area is considered "squeezing" and has to make some sort of unspecified crash test. A creature which is not flying that is in an area between the next size down and its standard area is considered "squeezing" already and can't fly under any circumstances.

Personally, I would make large creatures have a 3m face, because there are damned few creatures that can't fit into a 3m cube.

-Username17

Yep, you've basically got it with one exception: A creature that starts flying (with few exceptions) immediately doubles its face/quadruples area. If it doesn't have room to do that, it isn't "squeezing," it just can't fly (no room to unfurl the wings). If it has just enough room it is "squeezing."

To have enough room to fly freely, it must quadruple it's face, multiplying it's area by 16. This is to represent that most flying creatures need a lot of space to manuver freely.

"Reach" as it is currently dealt with in D&D is included in "space," but a flying creature's "reach" does not increase.

The reason I have large creatures a 4m+ face it to allow small creatures to fit into their space, doing the gnomes vs. ogres thing. If you can come up with better way, please tell me. Yes, 3m was what I was originally planning on using for large.

As for what "squeezing" means, you can look in up (IIRC in the DMG) under 'fighting in close quarters' or somesuch. Of course, the rules for that will probably have to be modified, and the flanking rules will be rolled into them.

Alright, I'm holding my breath, waiting for the storm.