Paul/Frank Sorcerer Update?

[Sir Neil]

(Sorry, I couldn't remember how to spell Paul's last name.)

I lost the link to its location on the Wizards boards, and I wondered what the playtest results have been.

[Username17]

Interesting.

So far, the Trollman/Sulin Sorcerer has been a little worse in combat than a Specialist Conjurer of the same level. We've been sending one organically up in level and he's nearly 7th. From a military effectiveness standpoint he'd be a little better if he'd just packed up on a stack of Grease, Web, Color Spray, and of course - Glitterdust.

Where he makes up for it is honestly his access to divinations and weird utility spells out of combat - and in combat his ability to use Evocations against horde monsters (no self respecting Conjurer would leave the house without Evocation as a barred school, and there are occassional times when casting a Fireball is actually useful).

His ability to use all schools for the purpose of magic items is good, and Use Magic Device on the class list has allowed him to make adequate use of a wand of lesser restoration to good effect (seriously we would have lost a character without it).

The feel is about what we are looking for - the ability to sub to a Bear's Endurance or See Invisibilty has actually saved lives - but his low number of attack spells at each level as come very close to losing some.

It seems a little under powered still, mostly because we didn't actually give it class features - just a spellcasting mechanic and a list of skills. Still, that spellcasting mechanic has been pretty effective.


TROLLMAN/SULIIN SORCERER
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d4.
BAB: Poor (As Wizard)
Saves: Fort: Poor; Reflex: Poor; Will: Good

[The Spells by Level Table is not printing, I don't know why]

Class Skills
The sorcerer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
See Chapter 4: Skills for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the sorcerer.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a sorcerer’s gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.
Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).
To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.
Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Trollman-Suliin Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. Nevertheless the sorcerer has the fewest spells per day of any spellcasting class. He makes up for this with his spell selection: thanks to his intuitive connection to magic, a sorcerer can choose spontaneously from any spell on the core Wizard/Sorcerer list, so long as he has a spell slot of that level (or any higher level, if he wishes to use a higher slot) available to cast it. A given sorcerer can add non-core spells to his spontaneous casting list by spell research, just as a wizard does, but using Charisma to modify the Spellcraft check instead of intelligence.
Familiar: A sorcerer can obtain a familiar. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp. A familiar is a magical beast that resembles a small animal and is unusually tough and intelligent. The creature serves as a companion and servant.
The sorcerer chooses the kind of familiar he gets. As the sorcerer advances in level, his familiar also increases in power.
If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the sorcerer, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per sorcerer level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a sorcerer’s experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a familiar’s demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs.
A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time.

[Lago_AM3P]

Instead of calling it the sorcerer, why not just call it the psion and give it a cosmetic facelift (like being able to use telekinesis at will at a certain level and crap)? That'd satisfy the people who want them.

Because, let's face it, we already have a 'magic-user who's the face of the party', and he's the bard. Who also needs buffing up.

In fact, not to mess with success too much, but what's wrong with letting the bard inherit the spellcasting model of the 3.5E sorcerer while still keeping his spell list and all of the class features? And make bardic song a free action or some shiz.

Then the Frank/Suulin sorcerer could be the psion, but with less crystals and shit. That, IMO, would be rockin'.

Whoo. Getting ahead of myself.

[RandomCasualty]

I don't really see a psion being that versatile myself. Psions in fantasy tend to have a few powers they're really good at and that's it. Professor X is an awesome telepath but even he can't levitate himself with his mind. Magneto can generate a powerful force screen and alter magnetics but has no mental abilities whatsoever.

I actually like how the current psions are set up now, so I wouldn't want to change them.

I think leaving it as an arcanist is a much better idea. It would also make a lot of sense from a divine point of view, and actually could be a nice way to balance the divine classes, by giving them very few spell slots, but the ability to generate miracles on the spot. I dunno, just a thought.

[Username17]

I really don't like the whole Psionics/Magic quasi-dichotomy they got going.

It's kind of fun to have the Ilithid and the Gyth, and all those other fun monsters - but making their stuff be "not magic" in any meaningful fashion is just irritating.

This Sorcerer is based more on the Doctor Strange model, or Doctor Fate, or any of the other sorcerer heroes with the word "Doctor" in their name. They just sort of pull magic out of their ass and sometimes run out, or only have enough power left for one ginormous explosion (which can be performed with spell slots, but can't be performed with spell points).

I'm deeply unhappy with the flavor and game mechanics associated with "Psionics" in D&D. That's all the editions of D&D, btw. Psionics were dumb back when you rolled on a chart to see if you part of the Wild Psionics club, and they are dumb now as well.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1083018759[/unixtime]]
I'm deeply unhappy with the flavor and game mechanics associated with "Psionics" in D&D.

I'm curious, what don't you like about the new psionics?

[Username17]

Flavor: I associate "crystal" with "annoying unscientific hippies" - not powerful mind melting freaks.

Psionics, unlike every single other thing in the whole game, is still run like an exclusive men's club. Every other talent available to PCs is a learnable skill - but Psionics is this weird special club where you get access to certain abilities, effects, and rules only if you have the "Psionic" membership card. It's not really important whether this membership card is desirable or not - nothing else in the game really works like that.

Mechanics: The first two levels of Soulknife give you the class feature "10 gold pieces worth of ordinary equipment" - which when coupled with their lackluster BAB, is somewhat less than the "absolutely nothing" that you get from taking 2 levels of Warrior. The class never gets any good abilities - ever. The Ilithid Hunter guy still gets the ability to magically detect any Mind Flayers who are within Mind Blast range (a feat that people normally get without a class feature just by watching their friends collapse and start flopping like fish). Etc. Those guys are astoundingly weak.

Spending power points in order to cast your spells is a fine mechanic - as long as your spells are vaguely in the same power level as each other. In D&D, the higher level spells are teleporting the party around and stopping time. There is no number of spell points you can save on not casting stomp that will balance out being able to cast Genesis - the two are specifically not on the same power scale.

The power point recycling methodology is quite simply insane. Mindfeeder Weapons, coupled with buffing spells, still allow you to jack yourself into obscene levels of power by virtue of sacrificing chickens. Body Fuel still doesn't mean jack when you are body snatching - so the fact that you can power your possession effects off of killing your previous host is not a good way to start for a system supposedly based on limiting castings on a daily basis.

Psionics is too weak, and too powerful, and unsatisfying in a fundamental way. I really don't have anything nice to say about the latest book except that it has some killer art.

-Username17

[AlphaNerd]

I was hoping to post this in the Homebrew section of the pdf. What exactly is the spell progression, in words if not in tables?

[Username17]

1176679961[/unixtime]]I was hoping to post this in the Homebrew section of the pdf. What exactly is the spell progression, in words if not in tables?

Ah yes. This class got half as many spells per day of each level as a Wizard, round day. And yes, a "1" goes to "0" not "-".

It was an interesting exercise. Really needed some class features, but the spellcasting mechanic saved the day often enough.

-Username17

[AlphaNerd]

Any reason to not give it the same feat-set as Wizard and call it a day (or is that too boring)? Sure, Scribe Scroll is of prime importance to a Wizard to increase versatility, but a TS Sorcerer could use it to augment his spells per day, and save his slots for the really uncommon stuff.

Thanks for the quick response.

[Brobdingnagian]

Maybe give him the ability to apply certain Meta-Magics without burning casting slots?

[Judging__Eagle]

No, give them certain specific sudden metamagic feats; it's an existing mechanic and you can limit what metamagic they can use and when.

If not, a level 1 human Sorcerer can Persist any spell if they burn their first 2 feats on extend and persistant spell.

[JonSetanta]

Sorcerer should do everything the Warlock and Warmage do, but better.

This includes HP d6, SP +4, good Will and maybe Reflex, a good mix of social and semi-bardlike skill selection, and semi-gish combat ability.
Well... OK.. not every Sorc would be a Gish but it should be a better choice than Wizard any day. Possibly choices in class abilities and/or feats that allow focus in "blaster" or "melee combat", similar to how Rangers have 2 tracks.

This would also include the (possible) capabilities of Spell-Like Abilities or at least casting specific spell slots "at will", Sculpt Spell, Energy Admixture, and casting in armor.

Anything less and I'm dissatisfied.

[Catharz]

Why the fuck would 'sorcerer' = fighter/mage?

[Judging__Eagle]

Hmm, nah, let's give them the following:


Sorcerers are tough (or are beefed up with magics!): All good saves
[no, I don't have a really good reason, but w/e]

HD: D6

BaB: 1/2

They can run out of power or cast powerful stuff: 1/2 of a wizard's spells per day, round down; 1's become 0's, not -'s.
Can cast any arcane spell.

Skill Pts: 4 + Int mod (skills from the wiz and sorc spell list)

Familiar or Weapon:

Sorcerors get a Familiar, which is a CR -3 monster (or CR 1/4 at lvl 1, 1/3 at lvl 2, 1/2 at lvl 3 and CR 1 at lvl 4), a new one shows up after a 1 hour ritual f the last one is dismissed or killed. No XP penalties or anything else, just a CR -3 creature. Can't be a humanoid, giant or monsterous humanoid however (leadership is for that).


Aternatively, they can choose to use a weapon instead of gaing a familiar; they get Combat School (that weapon) and can use their ranks in spellcraft instead of their BaB, and it counts as if it were an ancestral weapon like the one used by the RoW Samurai.


They can do shit with magic that's 'unpossible': Rapid Metamagic Feats, one at 3rd lvl and one at each odd level thereafter:

Rapid Extend (3st lvl); Rapid Empower (5th lvl); Rapid "..." (7th lvl); Rapid "..." 9th lvl; Rapid Maximize (11th lvl); Rapid "..." (13th); Rapid Persist (15th); Rapid "..." (17th); Rapid "..." (19th)

Need ideas for appropriate metamagics for 7th, 9th, 13th (quicken, or lower level?), 17th and 19th.

I'm not sure if the rapid metamagics that I did pick are appropriate however.

The one thing would be that everytime you gain a new rapid metamagic feat from this ability; all of your presious abilities gain 1 extra use per day.

So at lvl 19, you have 8 Rapid Extends and 7 Rapid Empowers and 4 Rapid Maximizes.

This is level 19 mind you. The level where your 4 man party could face 24 creatures that each force you to make DC 18 fort saves every round and when you do blow through their combined 2,600 hp, you earn no XP, since they were CR 7 monsters and you're CR 19 PCs. You didn't get XP from those guys at lvl 16 either.

So, in any game you'll probably run around with a total of 2 Rapid Max'es per day (until you hit lvl 17, at which point the game's over anyway).

I think that thinking of this character as Doctor Strange, instead of a 'war wizard' is probably best.

Once you've got the flavour set, the stuff writes itself.

[JonSetanta]

Why the fck would it be fighter/mage? Fighter/mages suck.

I'm talkin full-caster with Hit Die as good as a Bard.
Semi-Gish, like Wilder or Warlock. Half-Gish, w/e.

They seriously need it, given that Wizards have an infinitely expandable spell list and bonus feats.

[Judging__Eagle]

I like the Sorcerer that can cast any spell, given that it's one that they are expected to cast or an appropriate spellcraft check.

[Prak]

1083018759[/unixtime]]This Sorcerer is based more on the Doctor Strange model, or Doctor Fate, or any of the other sorcerer heroes with the word "Doctor" in their name. They just sort of pull magic out of their ass and sometimes run out, or only have enough power left for one ginormous explosion (which can be performed with spell slots, but can't be performed with spell points).

actually... I once created a spell point system based off of Eragon that could actually accomplish that... unfortunately, I have no idea where it got off to... maybe if you guys are interested, I'll rewrite and post them sometime...

[Manxome]

It's easy to accomplish that with spell points; casting a spell decreases your available spell points by the spell's cost, but set the minimum required to cast any spell to 1, instead of the spell's cost (in other words, your spell points can go negative, as long as they're positive before you cast the spell). Now your last spell is always the most spectacularly powerful spell you know that could possibly be useful in your situation.

Of course, there's a lot of other important differences between spell points and spell slots...

[Prak]

actually, I did it up so that if you wanted to cast a spell that cost more than you had spell points, you could do it, but you'd take temporary con damage, which leads to the ability to such classic scenes as the party is at it's last stand, one foot in the grave and the wizard fires off the most powerful spell he can muster and drops from the strain and exhaustion. I had a system set up so that casters could actually cast from any spell list, but they had to make knowledge checks to cast anything with higher dcs for spells not on their lists, and spells they couldn't normally cast had higher point costs. It was all inspired by Eragon(the book) so it made sense for that kind of setting.

[Bigode]

Frank: would you find it feasible to finish this class by giving it five metamagic feats, and the ability to use up to 5 levels of metamagic for free on its spells, without increasing casting time?

Also, what'd you think about the concept of finishing it as a warrior-mage (since those would probably use less spells up)?

[Jacob_Orlove]

1187152892[/unixtime]]Now your last spell is always the most spectacularly powerful spell you know that could possibly be useful in your situation.

You could get the same effect by giving players the ability to trade out all their remaining spell slots (minimum 1) to cast any one spell of the highest level they can cast, which would be pretty neat.

[JonSetanta]

1202224067[/unixtime]]
Also, what'd you think about the concept of finishing it as a warrior-mage (since those would probably use less spells up)?

Well, I apparently proposed that suggestion half a year ago and nothing was done then.
I doubt that the T/S Sorc will ever be such a thing, so perhaps you'll have to make one.
I made a version chock full of class abilities with pumped HD but figured it would be a wasted thread to showcase yet another Sorc fix.
... but maybe we should have a thread to showcase Sorcerer fixes? hm!

[Bigode]

How's that for one of the possible ways to finish it? Too much after the casting mechanic?

THAUMATHURGE

Hit Die: d4.
Attack: Poor.
Fortitude: Poor.
Reflex: Poor.
Will: Good.
Skill Points: 2.
Proficiencies: Simple weapons.
Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (all) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Use Magic Device (Cha), any two others.

Spells Per Day: wizard/2.
Spells: A thaumathurge casts arcane spells which are drawn from the core cleric, druid, and sorcerer/wizard spell lists; if a spell appears at different levels on these lists, the thaumathurge may cast it at the lowest level it appears on any of them. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).
To learn or cast a spell, a thaumathurge must have an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a thaumathurge’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the thaumathurge’s highest mental ability modifier.
Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a thaumathurge need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.
Like other spellcasters, a thaumathurge can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Thaumathurge. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high mental ability score (use the highest one). Nevertheless the thaumathurge has the fewest spells per day of any spellcasting class. He makes up for this with his spell selection: thanks to his intuitive connection to magic, a thaumathurge can choose spontaneously from any spell on the core cleric, druid, or sorcerer/wizard lists, so long as he has a spell slot of that level (or any higher level, if he wishes to use a higher slot) available to cast it. However, thaumathurges take longer to cast their highest-level spells than usual: if a spell's casting time is less than one full-round action and is of the highest level a thaumathurge can cast, its casting time increases to one full-round action.
A given thaumathurge can add non-core cleric, druid, or sorcerer/wizard spells to his spontaneous casting list by spell research, just as a wizard can, but using his highest mental ability to modify the Spellcraft check instead of intelligence.
Familiar: A thaumathurge can obtain a familiar. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp. A familiar is a magical beast that resembles a small animal and is unusually tough and intelligent. The creature serves as a companion and servant.
The thaumathurge chooses the kind of familiar he gets. As the thaumathurge advances in level, his familiar also increases in power, as per the familiar class ability boxed text.
A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a month. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs.
A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time, but the levels in such classes stack for the familiar benefits.
Sudden Metamagic: At 2nd level and every four levels thereafter, the thaumathurge gains a bonus sudden metamagic feat for which he meets the prerequisites.
Bonus Metamagic: At 3rd level and every four levels thereafter, the thaumathurge gains a bonus non-sudden metamagic feat for which he meets the prerequisites.
Free Metamagic: From 4th level on, a thaumathurge can reduce the metamagic adjustment of his spells by 1 level, as long as he would be capable to cast each spell without this reduction. The reduction is applied once, after all metamagic has been applied to the spell.
At 8th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the maximum reduction increases by 1 level; it doesn't have to be applied fully.

[Utterfail]

Time for some good ol' thread necromancy. It doesn't appear that bigode has posted here since "Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:10 pm" but I want to solicit opinions on the Thaumaturge since I've spent some time formatting it for inclusion in the Tome PDFs.

I moved Bonus Metamagic to second level because it was tecnically possible not to qualify for any sudden metamagic feats (which require a metamagic feat to take them) by the time you got it if it happened in that order.

Also, sudden metamagic feats aren't OGL, but it would be really easy to keep the tomes self contained by simply altering the ability slightly. My proposed change for it is thus.

Sudden Metamagic: At 3rd level a Thaumaturge may use a Metamagic feat he knows without altering the level of the spell it modifies once per day. At 7th level, and every 4 levels thereafter he may do this one more time per day.

It really does the same thing without referencing Complete Arcane at all. Thoughts?