Why saves?

[K]

So, I've been bouncing around ideas for an RPG system for a while.

One thing that came up: why saves?

People all like AoEs, but the problem of rolling 10+ saves on one can be hassle. At the other end, players like rolling their own saves.

In terms of efficiency, is a save worth it?

[CatharzGodfoot]

What do you mean by 'a save'?

Would the counterpoint to an AoO resulting in 10+ saves be an AoO resulting in 10+ comparisons of two numbers (without rolling for each target), or would it be an AoO resulting in some automatic effect to 10+ targets?

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Hmm. I guess I'll start by stating some working premises:

1. People want to roll a die in order to affect the outcome of important effects.
2. People don't want to roll lots of dice in order to determine minor effects.
3. People don't want to wait for dozens of dice rolls before their turn comes up again.

So, considering the above, we get the following:
A) Dice rolls should only be used in situations where it is relevant and important to the game.
B) Therefore, since we don't want to overload on rolling dice, a game should not have an overabundance of important effects that occur in one turn.
C) Therefore, most (all?) abilities should be designed by the following rubric:

-Units can only use one ability a round that forces a die roll.
-Abilities which target one unit use a die roll to determine the outcome, which is rolled by the defender.
-Abilities which occur against multiple opponents use a preset amount of damage, or is rolled once by the attacker.

[Maxus]

Well, I suppose you could roll mass save for groups of mooks. Pick the most suitable die or combination thereof and roll to see how many of the mooks make a save versus a Fireball or whatever, and roll important targets individually. If you really wanted to cut back on the dice for direct damage, have a decent set damage for the effect, too.

[Username17]

A Save is just like an attack roll except the victim rolls the dice. The original Gygaxian logic goes like this:

• If a player gets hit by a really big effect and drops instantly without rolling any dice, that really pisses them off.
• If a player zaps the BBEG and blows him out of the water on turn one without the BBEG getting to do anything cool, that pisses Gygax off.

So Saves were born. That way players can get through the game without getting blown up before they get to roll dice, and Gygax can hide the pivotal rolls of the big villain behind a DM Screen.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

So by Gygaxian method, more dice = more happy players.

Well I can't vouch for anyone else but I really hate it when I roll, and the roll goes really, really bad, and my character dies outright to a deathtrap, pitfall, slaying spell, insta-kill poison, or perception check vs. assassin.
It's as if I never had a roll in the first place. I don't really care at that point that I had a roll, since it means jack shit (in some cases) barely even 50% of the time.
In terms of quantum probability I am playing both living and dead character. The dead parts outnumber the living by far and that just ruins the fun of "I open the treasure box. Was it trapped? Oh shit, it was. Poison death gas."

So WHERE'S THE HAPPY PLAYER THERE, GYGAX????
WHERE'S MY DAMNED SAVING THROW!

He might have even broken his own continuity in creating Chutes and Ladders games inside dungeons.
Lead the players along, and sure they get their rolls, but then BAM! party TPKs in a big slide ending with a Sphere of Annihilation.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

All of the players get a save... except due to the following effects I am about to create...

[shau]

Saves are a lot easier to fudge if you are DM. If you roll behind the screen, you can just announce whatever result you want. It is harder to do that if a player wizard casts finger of death on the BBEG and rolls a natural 20 in front of everybody.

edit: looks like Frank said it before I did. One of these days I will learn to actually read.